Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

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rlg94086 said:
Yes.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html
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I didn’t see where the word infallible was used in the declaration that you linked to. Some of the top Catholic theologians say it was authoritative but not infallible. How do you know that it satisfies the criteria for infallibility? it is just because you sayso or does it satisfy the criteria for infallibility, which a top Catholic theologian says it does not, although he does agree it is authoritative.
 
Tsuwano said:
Your point is well taken, though I do not think serving as a server at the altar is the equivalent of flight school for a pilot. That, I believe, would be the seminary.
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No, the seminary is where the ‘astronaut’ gets his astronaut training. Flight school is simply a very common step towards the stars.
I agree with your point that we should encourage groups of boys to serve their community as altar servers. I do not think such encouragement precludes girls from also serving as altar servers. Rome’s advice to encourage boys in this area does not mean we need to discourage girls, even if they do not have a call to priesthood.
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If having a girl there means a boy who MIGHT have a vocation doesn’t serve, then, yes, it should not be done.
 
louis91766 said:
I didn’t see where the word infallible was used in the declaration that you linked to. Some of the top Catholic theologians say it was authoritative but not infallible. How do you know that it satisfies the criteria for infallibility? it is just because you sayso or does it satisfy the criteria for infallibility, which a top Catholic theologian says it does not, although he does agree it is authoritative.
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Because then Cardinal Ratzninger (now Pope Benedict) stated that it was infallible under the Ordinary Magisterium under the definiton applied to such in Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium ( para 25)
October 28, 1995
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Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.
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Responsum: In the affirmative.
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**This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium **(cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith.
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The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved this Reply, adopted in the ordinary session of this Congregation, and ordered it to be published.
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Rome, from the offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on the Feast of the Apostles SS. Simon and Jude, October 28, 1995.
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Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect
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ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfrespo.htm
 
louis91766 said:
I didn’t see where the word infallible was used in the declaration that you linked to. Some of the top Catholic theologians say it was authoritative but not infallible. How do you know that it satisfies the criteria for infallibility? it is just because you sayso or does it satisfy the criteria for infallibility, which a top Catholic theologian says it does not, although he does agree it is authoritative.
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Those “top Catholic theologians” are dead wrong, so maybe you should question anything else they have to say. 🤷
 
Tsuwano said:
Rome’s advice to encourage boys in this area does not mean we need to discourage girls, even if they do not have a call to priesthood.
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One thing to remember is that Rome has stated that no lay person has a right to serve at the altar.

If girls are not chosen to serve by the celebrant, they are not being denied anything that they have a right to claim.

Therefore there can be no ‘discouragement’ as altar service is a privledge granted by the clergy to the laity.
 
louis91766 said:
How do you know whether or not sometime in the future the Catholic Church may change its teaching and allow women priests. They used to teach in favor of burning heretics and now they have changed and say that any type of capital punishment is wrong. They used to teach that women should be silent in Church, but now women can be readers. They have changed a lot of other things also, like whether or not a Jew can be saved.
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Please Lord return the Church to the the good old days when Catholics were Catholics and not Protestants posing as Catholics.
 
rlg94086 said:
Those “top Catholic theologians” are dead wrong, so maybe you should question anything else they have to say. 🤷
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They are? Do you know who the current Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith is and who appointed him to that office?
 
rlg94086 said:
What are you trying to say? Please speak plainly.

Are you implying that Levada believes that women should be ordained?
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This is a rather disrepectful way to address his eminence Cardinal William Levada.
 
Brendan said:
No, the seminary is where the ‘astronaut’ gets his astronaut training. Flight school is simply a very common step towards the stars.

If having a girl there means a boy who MIGHT have a vocation doesn’t serve, then, yes, it should not be done.
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Whatever, Brendan. I’m not going to discuss flight school with you. Why should having girls serving the priest at the altar mean that a boy will not have a vocation? It’s a false fear. As I mentioned in a previous post, I seriously doubt that the presence of female altar servers will trump the call of the Holy Spirit to a young man who has a genuine vocation to the priesthood. If a female altar server is a block to a young man’s vocation, then I question the quality of that vocation and whether he has a genuine call.
 
Brendan said:
One thing to remember is that Rome has stated that no lay person has a right to serve at the altar.

If girls are not chosen to serve by the celebrant, they are not being denied anything that they have a right to claim.

Therefore there can be no ‘discouragement’ as altar service is a privledge granted by the clergy to the laity.
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Exactly right. Boys do not have a right to serve at the altar, either. We’ve already discussed this point in previous posts and I have stated that if the bishop or priest does not wish the presence of girls on the altar, then there should be no girls on the altar. But many bishops and priests do not mind if girls serve on the altar. Where such service is allowed, we cannot argue against it. I do not believe that female altar servers detract from the service or interfere with a young man’s discernment of a clerical vocation. Many bishops and priests, who are faithfully served by female altar servers during the liturgy, apparently agree with me.
 
Brendan said:
The Vatican has noted that a large majority of priestly vocations come from boys who serve at the altar. Many of those, like Deacon Dave, list altar service as a large influence on their decision to accept the Call from God.

Girls can never have that call, while just about any boy could be one that will recieve a calling.

So it therefore behoves anyone who is interested in seeing more vocations to follow Rome’s advice and to encourge groups of boys as altar servers.

As far as if it is a good argument or not, I trust Rome’s analysis of the data. The Vatican has more insights into this than any other organization there is.
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You make some assumptions here:
  1. “Girls can never have that call.” Yes they can. Many women have been ordained in both Catholic and Anglican diocese. The Vatican does not recognize these ordinations as valid but it does speak against you point that “girls do not receive the call.”
Because girls/women are barred from the priesthood does not mean they do not have a valid vocation to the priesthood. This is the same logic that was used to keep women authors from publishing their work under their own names until comparatively recently. It was used as proof that women were not creative writers because there was nothing published by women. Until the Canadian high courts declared that women were “human persons” theydid not have the right to vote. Does this mean that girls/women were not “human persons” before Canada said they were? It’s the same logic.
  1. You keep citing the Vatican analysis of descriptive data as “proof” that vocations mostly stem from serving as altar boys. You are probably unfamiliar with the different types of research designs and which ones “prove” and which ones merely show an “association.” The Vatican data does not come from an experiment that tests an hypothesis, instead it is simply an explanation of a sociological finding that still needs to be tested and proven.
In other words, serving as an altar boy does not cause the vocation. That these events co-exist in the same person is not a sign of the causative nature of altar serving. Please keep cause and effect in mind when you offer your proofs. If it were causative, all/most altar boys would enter the seminary. Then it would be mandatory to exculde girls as they too would be called to the seminary only to have the door shut in their faces.
 
wisdomseeker said:
To me it is ackward to see girls sitting side by side with a priests. to see priests washing women’s feet. this is very worldly.
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Or woman acolyte running around altar in her high heel slippers pretending to be more important than the priest himself. My son asked me: “Mom, who is that woman priest?”.

I am with you, no females at the altar, period.
 
louis91766 said:
They are? Do you know who the current Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith is and who appointed him to that office?
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Yes, that would be Cardinal Levada, and he was appointed by Pope Benedict.

Next question, so what?
 
louis91766 said:
This is a rather disrepectful way to address his eminence Cardinal William Levada.
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Really,

So I assume that you have proof that he does not recognize the determination of infallibility that he predecessor provided in regards to Ordinato Sacerdolis?

If so, could you please post it.
 
annaevers said:
Or woman acolyte running around altar in her high heel slippers pretending to be more important than the priest himself. My son asked me: “Mom, who is that woman priest?”.

I am with you, no females at the altar, period.
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definitelly.
 
louis91766 said:
How do you know whether or not sometime in the future the Catholic Church may change its teaching and allow women priests. They used to teach in favor of burning heretics and now they have changed and say that any type of capital punishment is wrong. They used to teach that women should be silent in Church, but now women can be readers. They have changed a lot of other things also, like whether or not a Jew can be saved.
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Because a women CAN NOT act in “persona christi”. Its as simple as that. The priest **says the words of Christ at consecration. **

I hope more Cathedrals around the country do the same as Phoenix
 
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