Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[rlg94086]

This is a rather disrepectful way to address his eminence Cardinal William Levada.

Not at all. I didn’t address him. I referred to him with shorthand. JPII, Benedict, Chaput, Ratzinger, etc. are commonly used to refer to very well respected popes, archbishops and cardinals.

 

[rlg94086]

Really,

So I assume that you have proof that he does not recognize the determination of infallibility that he predecessor provided in regards to Ordinato Sacerdolis?

If so, could you please post it.

Exactly. I asked for plain speaking and get nothing…except for a complaint for referring to a Cardinal by his last name alone.

 

[Corki]

You make some assumptions here:

1. “Girls can never have that call.” Yes they can. Many women have been ordained in both Catholic and Anglican diocese. The Vatican does not recognize these ordinations as valid but it does speak against you point that “girls do not receive the call.”

This doesn’t even make sense. If the ordination is not valid, it didn’t happen. It was only a simulation. No good Catholic has a valid vocation to a simulated ordination.

Not to mention that vocation is a call to the life of the priesthood, not just to the Sacrament of Oridation. Those women who pretended to be ordained aren’t living the life of the priesthood, they aren’t even practicing Catholics anymore.

 

[louis91766]

Yes, that would be Cardinal Levada, and he was appointed by Pope Benedict.

Next question, so what?

Cardinal Levada studied under Father Sullivan who was dean of the Pontifical Gregorian Academy. Father Sullivan has written that the declaration on banning women priests does not meet the criteria for infallibility. Although it is authoritative and must be followed at this point in time.

 

[rlg94086]

Cardinal Levada studied under Father Sullivan who was dean of the Pontifical Gregorian Academy. Father Sullivan has written that the declaration on banning women priests does not meet the criteria for infallibility. Although it is authoritative and must be followed at this point in time.

So, you believe that because Cardinal Levada studied under Father Sullivan, he agrees with him on this point?

Do you have anything from Cardinal Levada that would lead you to jump to such a conclusion?

 

[StAnastasia]

Whatever, Brendan. I’m not going to discuss flight school with you. Why should having girls serving the priest at the altar mean that a boy will not have a vocation? It’s a false fear. As I mentioned in a previous post, I seriously doubt that the presence of female altar servers will trump the call of the Holy Spirit to a young man who has a genuine vocation to the priesthood. If a female altar server is a block to a young man’s vocation, then I question the quality of that vocation and whether he has a genuine call.

Priestly vocation is independent from altar service. When I asked my younger son whether altar service might lead him to a priestly vocation, he replied, “Heck no, it couldn’t – I’m straight, and I want children!”

 

[rlg94086]

Priestly vocation is independent from altar service. When I asked my younger son whether altar service might lead him to a priestly vocation, he replied, “Heck no, it couldn’t – I’m straight, and I want children!”

That’s your evidence? Your one son’s response? How scientific.

Btw…it’s charming that part of his response is “I’m straight.” I hope you corrected him on his uncharitable assumption that same sex attraction is a reason to become a priest.

 

[StAnastasia]

That’s your evidence? Your one son’s response? How scientific.

I did not present it as evidence of anything.

Btw…it’s charming that part of his response is “I’m straight.”

 

[louis91766]

So, you believe that because Cardinal Levada studied under Father Sullivan, he agrees with him on this point?

Do you have anything from Cardinal Levada that would lead you to jump to such a conclusion?

I’m saying that there is no indication that Father Sullivan is wrong. His credentials are quite high, being Dean of the Faculty of Theology at the Pontifical Gregorian University.

 

[rlg94086]

I’m saying that there is no indication that Father Sullivan is wrong. His credentials are quite high, being Dean of the Faculty of Theology at the Pontifical Gregorian University.

Can you provide a link to what Father Sullivan said, and when he said it?

I’m glad you are not claiming Cardinal Levada agrees with him. Thank you for that.

 

[louis91766]

Can you provide a link to what Father Sullivan said, and when he said it?:

“The question that remains is whether it is a clearly established fact that the bishops of the Catholic Church are as convinced by those reasons [against women priests] as Pope John Paul evidently is, and that, in exercising their proper role as judges and teachers of the faith, they have been unanimous in teaching that the exclusion of women from ordination to the priesthood is a divinely revealed truth to which all Catholics are obliged to give a definitive assent of faith. Unless this is manifestly the case, I do not see how it can be certain that this doctrine is taught infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium.” FULL TEXT: The Tablet 23/30 December 1995, p. 1646.

“The question whether a doctrine has been infallibly taught is not a matter of doctrine, but a matter of fact, which has to be ‘manifestly established’ (Canon 749 §3). What must be ‘manifestly established’ when the claim is made that a doctrine has been taught infallibly by the ordinary universal magisterium, is that not only the Pope, but the whole body of Catholic bishops as well, are proposing the same doctrine as one which the faithful are obliged to hold in a definitive way. I do not see how it could be said that a papal declaration, of itself, without further evidence, would suffice to establish this fact.” FULL TEXT: Theological Studies, vol. 58, September 1997, pp. 509-515.

 

[rlg94086]

Here is some data on the class of 2011 priests:

nccbuscc.org/comm/archives/2011/11-081.shtml

“One important trend evident in this study is the importance of lifelong formation and engagement in the Catholic faith,” said Archbishop Robert J. Carlson of St. Louis, chairman of the U.S. bishops’ Committee on Clergy, Consecrated Life and Vocations.* “The role of the family, parish priest, friends, and youth ministry are evident in the results.” He noted that, along with their education and work experience, 71percent of the Class of 2011 report they served as an altar server. “This seems to indicate that the involvement of youth in the Church’s activities, especially the liturgy, has a positive impact for their choice of a vocation.”

---

Not every altar server becomes a priest, obviously, but 71% of priests (the new ones, at least) were altar servers. Clearly, the chairman of the USCCB’s committee on clergy believes that altar service is has a positive effect on vocation.

 

[rlg94086]

“The question that remains is whether it is a clearly established fact that the bishops of the Catholic Church are as convinced by those reasons [against women priests] as Pope John Paul evidently is, and that, in exercising their proper role as judges and teachers of the faith, they have been unanimous in teaching that the exclusion of women from ordination to the priesthood is a divinely revealed truth to which all Catholics are obliged to give a definitive assent of faith. Unless this is manifestly the case, I do not see how it can be certain that this doctrine is taught infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium.” FULL TEXT: The Tablet 23/30 December 1995, p. 1646.

“The question whether a doctrine has been infallibly taught is not a matter of doctrine, but a matter of fact, which has to be ‘manifestly established’ (Canon 749 §3). **What must be ‘manifestly established’ when the claim is made that a doctrine has been taught infallibly by the ordinary universal magisterium, is that not only the Pope, but the whole body of Catholic bishops as well, are proposing the same doctrine as one which the faithful are obliged to hold in a definitive way. **I do not see how it could be said that a papal declaration, of itself, without further evidence, would suffice to establish this fact.” FULL TEXT: Theological Studies, vol. 58, September 1997, pp. 509-515.

Thank you (no link, but properly cited )

Now, can you find a member of the Magisterium (i.e. a Catholic Bishop) who agrees with him? Since infallibility from the ordinary universal magisterium is what he claims is required, the opinions of a theologian are just that - opinions. It would seem that a Bishop agreeing with him might help. It would certainly give a little bit of weight to his claim, which I believe is erroneous.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I think it’s hogwash that altar service leads to priesthood. If a boy won’t serve with a girl then he won’t make a good priest. I know that there are plenty of you that don’t want to see a woman anywhere near the altar. But the fact of the matter is that in most daily parishes…it’s the woman that are doing all the work…so the priest better get used to it up front. Would I like to see more men readers and EMHC’s…you BETCHA…but the fact of the matter is that they are not volunterring…and dont’ give me the hogwash that somehow we women have “run” them out… Stand up and do what is right…but don’t blame us women for stepping in when you don’t.

My brothers were both altar servers…and I wasn’t. Funny thing is…I’m the only one that has come back to the Church fully.

Priest would do a lot more by taking interest in boys that might have a vocation…but problem is that they don’t want to be accused of something…even if there is not there…

But yes…I get the fact that priest do have a right to have boys only…but you’ll excuse me if I don’t through the arizona diocese a tickertape parade…

 

[Tigg]

You make some assumptions here:

1. “Girls can never have that call.” Yes they can. Many women have been ordained in both Catholic and Anglican diocese. **The Vatican does not recognize these ordinations as valid but it does speak against you point that “girls do not receive the call.” **

This is a contradiction - a true vocation, properly discerned, can only be from God Himself. How can God be against His own Church? If a woman thinks she has received a call to the priesthood, I suggest it is “Self” she is listening to and not the Holy Spirit.

 

[Corki]

Priestly vocation is independent from altar service. When I asked my younger son whether altar service might lead him to a priestly vocation, he replied, “Heck no, it couldn’t – I’m straight, and I want children!”

Wow, what a bigotted response. I hope this is a very young son. Sorry you had to hear that.

But it doesn’t really apply. At best, it simply reflects the reality that someone with a vocation to married life will not have that vocation changed by altar service. It does NOT mean that someone the HS is calling might not hear and respond better by virtue of his closer relationship to what happens at Mass.

I think it was in one of George Weigle’s books that I read the phrase “vocations were in the air”. His point was that in decades past, there were many opportunities for boys and young men to give the idea of a priestly vocation due consideration. He erecalled that virtually all boys but especially those who were altar boys were challenged to consider what they were called to be and whether that call *might *be to be a priest. Most responsded with another vocation but the consideration was there. The same cannot be said of today’s boys.

Vocations aren’t created, they are answered. In today’s enviornment, it is harder for young people to hear their vocation, let alone prayerfully discern their responses. Altar service may be one way to give boys and young men an opportunity to listen.

 

[StAnastasia]

Vocations aren’t created, they are answered. In today’s enviornment, it is harder for young people to hear their vocation, let alone prayerfully discern their responses. Altar service may be one way to give boys and young men an opportunity to listen.

Perhaps there are multiple vocations. Someone might be call both to the priesthood and to married life, as my father was. When he was an Anglican there was no conflict between these vocations, and he pursued both of them superbly. When he became Roman Catholic in 1959, there was no possibility of both vocations coexisting. Rather than leave my mother and her children, he chose to become a lay Catholic.

Had he converted thirty years later, he might have been allowed to act on both his paternal and his priestly vocations, as did a number of men I know. I don’t think God changed the divine mind about what he was calling my father to do; I think the Church temporarily changed its mind on whether this was permissible.

 

[Brendan]

I think it’s hogwash that altar service leads to priesthood.

The Vatican disagrees with you. Do you have more data on the subject than the collective bishops of the world are providing to Rome, or is your opinion just, that, an opinion with out any data.

If a boy won’t serve with a girl then he won’t make a good priest. :

First of all, the point is to increase the number of boys serving, as to increase vocations, not that the boys ‘won’t serve’ with girls.

Secondly, as to who does, or does not make a good priest, isn’t that the job of the Diocesan Vocations dept and the Seminary staff. Are you trying to claim that you know better than they.

Would I like to see more men readers and EMHC’s…you BETCHA…but the fact of the matter is that they are not volunterring

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it is the senior altarboys in our parish that do the lectoring ( Father wants them to have the experience of regularly proclaiming God’s Word from the podium)

And as far as EMCH’s, remember that the role exists entirely due to a shortage of Ordinary Ministers. As a priest friend of mine once told a group of EMCH’s “Every prayer for vocations is a prayer that your ministry will end” And that is quite true.

 

[Brendan]

Since infallibility from the ordinary universal magisterium is what he claims is required, the opinions of a theologian are just that - opinions.

And Louis said ‘TOP theologians’ disagreed.

The top theologian, by defintion, is the current head of the CDF.

I would like to see some documentation that Cardinal Levada disagrees the O.S.

 

[StAnastasia]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it is the senior altarboys in our parish that do the lectoring ( Father wants them to have the experience of regularly proclaiming God’s Word from the podium)

In our parish the lectors are drawn from both genders and a wide range of ages, from Kindergartners to those elderly who can still stand at the pulpit.

As a priest friend of mine once told a group of EMCH’s “Every prayer for vocations is a prayer that your ministry will end”

LOL - that would be motivation for an EMHC not to pray for vocations! It’s an old superstition that regards lay people as unholy or unfit to distribute the Eucharist.