S
SemperReformada
Guest
No, reformed theology teaches no such thing.
God does not violate our will, not at all.
- Status
God does not violate our will, not at all.
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
The Catholic Faith
CHAPTER ONE
MAN’S CAPACITY FOR GOD
I. THE DESIRE FOR GOD
27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:
The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.1
28 In many ways, throughout history down to the present day, men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth. These forms of religious expression, despite the ambiguities they often bring with them, are so universal that one may well call man a religious being:
From one ancestor [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him - though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For "in him we live and move and have our being."2
29 But this “intimate and vital bond of man to God” (GS 19 § 1) can be forgotten, overlooked, or even explicitly rejected by man.3 Such attitudes can have different causes: revolt against evil in the world; religious ignorance or indifference; the cares and riches of this world; the scandal of bad example on the part of believers; currents of thought hostile to religion; finally, that attitude of sinful man which makes him hide from God out of fear and flee his call.4
30 "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."5 Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, “an upright heart”, as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.
You are great, O Lord, and greatly to be praised: great is your power and your wisdom is without measure. And man, so small a part of your creation, wants to praise you: this man, though clothed with mortality and bearing the evidence of sin and the proof that you withstand the proud. Despite everything, man, though but a small a part of your creation, wants to praise you. You yourself encourage him to delight in your praise, for you have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.6
II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD
31 Created in God’s image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of “converging and convincing arguments”, which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These “ways” of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.
32 The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world’s order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe.
As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.7
And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: “See, we are beautiful.” Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One [Pulcher] who is not subject to change?8
33 The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God’s existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the “seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material”,9 can have its origin only in God.
34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality “that everyone calls God”.10
35 Man’s faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.
CHAPTER ONE
MAN’S CAPACITY FOR GOD
I. THE DESIRE FOR GOD
27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:
The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.1
28 In many ways, throughout history down to the present day, men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth. These forms of religious expression, despite the ambiguities they often bring with them, are so universal that one may well call man a religious being:
From one ancestor [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him - though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For "in him we live and move and have our being."2
29 But this “intimate and vital bond of man to God” (GS 19 § 1) can be forgotten, overlooked, or even explicitly rejected by man.3 Such attitudes can have different causes: revolt against evil in the world; religious ignorance or indifference; the cares and riches of this world; the scandal of bad example on the part of believers; currents of thought hostile to religion; finally, that attitude of sinful man which makes him hide from God out of fear and flee his call.4
30 "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."5 Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, “an upright heart”, as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.
You are great, O Lord, and greatly to be praised: great is your power and your wisdom is without measure. And man, so small a part of your creation, wants to praise you: this man, though clothed with mortality and bearing the evidence of sin and the proof that you withstand the proud. Despite everything, man, though but a small a part of your creation, wants to praise you. You yourself encourage him to delight in your praise, for you have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.6
II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD
31 Created in God’s image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of “converging and convincing arguments”, which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These “ways” of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.
32 The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world’s order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe.
As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.7
And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: “See, we are beautiful.” Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One [Pulcher] who is not subject to change?8
33 The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God’s existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the “seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material”,9 can have its origin only in God.
34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality “that everyone calls God”.10
35 Man’s faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
III. THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD ACCORDING TO THE CHURCH
36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God’s revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created “in the image of God”.12
37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:
Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. The human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13
38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God’s revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also “about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error”. 14
IV. HOW CAN WE SPEAK ABOUT GOD?
39 In defending the ability of human reason to know God, the Church is expressing her confidence in the possibility of speaking about him to all men and with all men, and therefore of dialogue with other religions, with philosophy and science, as well as with unbelievers and atheists.
40 Since our knowledge of God is limited, our language about him is equally so. We can name God only by taking creatures as our starting point, and in accordance with our limited human ways of knowing and thinking.
41 All creatures bear a certain resemblance to God, most especially man, created in the image and likeness of God. The manifold perfections of creatures - their truth, their goodness, their beauty all reflect the infinite perfection of God. Consequently we can name God by taking his creatures" perfections as our starting point, “for from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator”.15
42 God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, image-bound or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God–“the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable”–with our human representations.16 Our human words always fall short of the mystery of God.
43 Admittedly, in speaking about God like this, our language is using human modes of expression; nevertheless it really does attain to God himself, though unable to express him in his infinite simplicity. Likewise, we must recall that “between Creator and creature no similitude can be expressed without implying an even greater dissimilitude”;17 and that "concerning God, we cannot grasp what he is, but only what he is not, and how other beings stand in relation to him."18
IN BRIEF
44 Man is by nature and vocation a religious being. Coming from God, going toward God, man lives a fully human life only if he freely lives by his bond with God.
45 Man is made to live in communion with God in whom he finds happiness: When I am completely united to you, there will be no more sorrow or trials; entirely full of you, my life will be complete (St. Augustine, Conf. 10, 28, 39: PL 32, 795}.
46 When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arrive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything.
47 The Church teaches that the one true God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty from his works, by the natural light of human reason (cf. Vatican Council I, can. 2 § 1: DS 3026),
48 We really can name God, starting from the manifold perfections of his creatures, which are likenesses of the infinitely perfect God, even if our limited language cannot exhaust the mystery.
49 Without the Creator, the creature vanishes (GS 36). This is the reason why believers know that the love of Christ urges them to bring the light of the living God to those who do not know him or who reject him.
36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God’s revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created “in the image of God”.12
37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:
Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. The human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13
38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God’s revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also “about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error”. 14
IV. HOW CAN WE SPEAK ABOUT GOD?
39 In defending the ability of human reason to know God, the Church is expressing her confidence in the possibility of speaking about him to all men and with all men, and therefore of dialogue with other religions, with philosophy and science, as well as with unbelievers and atheists.
40 Since our knowledge of God is limited, our language about him is equally so. We can name God only by taking creatures as our starting point, and in accordance with our limited human ways of knowing and thinking.
41 All creatures bear a certain resemblance to God, most especially man, created in the image and likeness of God. The manifold perfections of creatures - their truth, their goodness, their beauty all reflect the infinite perfection of God. Consequently we can name God by taking his creatures" perfections as our starting point, “for from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator”.15
42 God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, image-bound or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God–“the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable”–with our human representations.16 Our human words always fall short of the mystery of God.
43 Admittedly, in speaking about God like this, our language is using human modes of expression; nevertheless it really does attain to God himself, though unable to express him in his infinite simplicity. Likewise, we must recall that “between Creator and creature no similitude can be expressed without implying an even greater dissimilitude”;17 and that "concerning God, we cannot grasp what he is, but only what he is not, and how other beings stand in relation to him."18
IN BRIEF
44 Man is by nature and vocation a religious being. Coming from God, going toward God, man lives a fully human life only if he freely lives by his bond with God.
45 Man is made to live in communion with God in whom he finds happiness: When I am completely united to you, there will be no more sorrow or trials; entirely full of you, my life will be complete (St. Augustine, Conf. 10, 28, 39: PL 32, 795}.
46 When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arrive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything.
47 The Church teaches that the one true God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty from his works, by the natural light of human reason (cf. Vatican Council I, can. 2 § 1: DS 3026),
48 We really can name God, starting from the manifold perfections of his creatures, which are likenesses of the infinitely perfect God, even if our limited language cannot exhaust the mystery.
49 Without the Creator, the creature vanishes (GS 36). This is the reason why believers know that the love of Christ urges them to bring the light of the living God to those who do not know him or who reject him.
G
guanophore
Guest
Really? In what way?
Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent…
Do you believe God commands us to do that which He does not enable us to do?
If you think that I am saying man is righteous before God has made him so, you are mistaken.
G
guanophore
Guest
I did not say he “violated” anyone’s will. Perhaps I have been given misunderstandings about the Reformed position? Reformed posters on CAF have explained to me that God’s grace regenerates a person, and that is how they are able to come to God. Where the Apostles taught “calling”, “drawing” or as myLatin brethren term “prevenient” grace, the Reformed believe the soul is regenerated, as they believe one cannot come to God unless one is born again. Please help me if I got that wrong.
As far as the will, it was my understanding that the elect want to do God’s will, due to irresistable grace, and the reprobate do not want to do God’s will. Therefore, each one wills what God has predestined for them.
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
Of course. The 10 commandments are universal commandments or absolute moral law which we are commanded to obey all the time. When we don’t obey a commandment of God, it’s called sin. Now, we do need to make a distinction between the man of flesh and the man led by the Spirit too (Rom 8).
G
guanophore
Guest
Well, you said I needed to “explain” the grace that causes fallen men to seek God.
I am not sure what this has to do with the “man of the flesh”. Do you not equate “fallen men” to “man of the flesh”?
As far as I can see, your response does not follow. I stated that men are created to seek God. You seemed to go to a lot of trouble to find and post the relevant passages from the Catechism (good for you!
), then you said I needed to explain the grace.
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
Just like the Bible, context is important in reading our postings.Well, you said I needed to “explain” the grace that causes fallen men to seek God.
I am not sure what this has to do with the “man of the flesh”. Do you not equate “fallen men” to “man of the flesh”?
As far as I can see, your response does not follow. I stated that men are created to seek God. You seemed to go to a lot of trouble to find and post the relevant passages from the Catechism (good for you!
I believe I asked you to explain grace before I found the answer for myself. Since you are not a Cafeteria Catholic, I am going to assume the Catholic Catechism speaks for you on these issues. It’s okay to be a Catholic Calvinist… just kidding.
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Catholic theology is not what I’m after. I’m trying to understand and clarify what you believe.
I wrote:
Is this an accurate assessment of your opinion?
If yes…
Given this reality, why does God blame the non elect for playing the role he created them to play?
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
I understand, but it’s a better way to communicate with each other if we know where we are coming from. What happens if you are planning to refute something this actually a Catholic position too. I hate to see you be called a Cafeteria Catholic. Do you remember what happened to Tweetymom?
http://ai.pricegrabber.com/pi/71/17/79/711779071_160.jpg
We like to devour Cafeteria Catholics…just kidding
God does not blame the non-elect. God is just in what He does. The non-elect simply receives what they deserve which is divine justice for their sin. The elect receive what they don’t deserve which is mercy and saving transforming grace. Maybe the Apostle Paul can be of some assistance here?
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? - Apostolic written revelation
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Paul tells us here that God can do what he wants. Does anyone doubt this?I understand, but it’s a better way to communicate with each other if we know where we are coming from. What happens if you are planning to refute something this actually a Catholic position too. I hate to see you be called a Cafeteria Catholic. Do you remember what happened to Tweetymom?
http://ai.pricegrabber.com/pi/71/17/79/711779071_160.jpg
We like to devour Cafeteria Catholics…just kidding
God does not blame the non-elect. God is just in what He does. The non-elect simply receives what they deserve which is divine justice for their sin. The elect receive what they don’t deserve which is mercy and saving transforming grace. Maybe the Apostle Paul can be of some assistance here?
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? - Apostolic written revelation
Paul also tells us that God wants all men to be saved.
You seem to doubt this:
This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
Of course I believe both of those truths. They are both equally true!
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Free willy, fact or fiction?
T
theogrit
Guest
2ndAdam:
Sunflower15:
JustaServant:
If I may be somewhat self-deprecating of Calvinism, or rather of typical attitude of expression having little to do with Calvinism but too often displayed by Calvinists, we are historically associated of “the frozen chosen” and of fierce infighting that no doubt rivals the Inquisition in spirit. It is not uncommon still to find Calvinists who equate the Pope with the Anti-Christ, and as for Catholic visitations to Protestant fora sites, I have to note that as a life-long Reformed Christian and Presbyterian I myself was banned from the predominant Reformed forums site on the Web after only my first post otherwise praised by others of that board, so I well appreciate a site where Christian acceptance and loving discourse is better suited to what our LORD has deemed the hallmark of His Church – love.
It’s unfortunate that one doesn’t nearly have to cross the Tiber to find a persnickety Calvinist. Not to deride the noble Scots-Irish, but I’ve debated within myself as to whether or not the Celtic propensity to anger and mercenary involvement might not have lent its fire to Calvinistic roots (even while their monks seemed to have saved civilization), but I am indeed grateful that Catholics here have generally followed the better angels of their nature in being patient with we Protestant protesters. Thanks for your graciousness. :hug1:
Love Is Patient:
I’m of course new to CatholicAnswersForums. I hope it won’t be thought too much a departure from the content of the thread to briefly give some measure of thanks for the generally kind timbre of the thread, especially amidst a very difficult and divisive topic, and with obvious aim to praise the love of God and the God of love.
If I may be somewhat self-deprecating of Calvinism, or rather of typical attitude of expression having little to do with Calvinism but too often displayed by Calvinists, we are historically associated of “the frozen chosen” and of fierce infighting that no doubt rivals the Inquisition in spirit. It is not uncommon still to find Calvinists who equate the Pope with the Anti-Christ, and as for Catholic visitations to Protestant fora sites, I have to note that as a life-long Reformed Christian and Presbyterian I myself was banned from the predominant Reformed forums site on the Web after only my first post otherwise praised by others of that board, so I well appreciate a site where Christian acceptance and loving discourse is better suited to what our LORD has deemed the hallmark of His Church – love.
It’s unfortunate that one doesn’t nearly have to cross the Tiber to find a persnickety Calvinist. Not to deride the noble Scots-Irish, but I’ve debated within myself as to whether or not the Celtic propensity to anger and mercenary involvement might not have lent its fire to Calvinistic roots (even while their monks seemed to have saved civilization), but I am indeed grateful that Catholics here have generally followed the better angels of their nature in being patient with we Protestant protesters. Thanks for your graciousness. :hug1:
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
I was opposed to ECT 1 and ECT II for years. However, I welcome the work of ECT 1 and ECT II… and would love to see an ECT III. As you know, JI Packer signed both ECT documents. What is your view of ECT?
christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html
C
ChosenAndCalled
Guest
I’m a full blown TULIP believer myself, but not as educated or eloquent as the other Reformed posters on this thread. I only have a few things to add.
First, the key difference in my mind between Reformed thinking (TULIP theology) and cooperative faith, either Catholic or other denominations like Methodist, Baptist, etc, boils down to God’s sovereignty.
Either God is completely sovereign, and His will is all that comes to pass, or God somehow allows His own will to be thwarted by His creation. In cooperative theology, Christ’s death was sufficient for all to come to God, yet only those who choose to are saved unto life. This means that God’s will is thwarted by the millions of souls who chose to reject Him. This renders man at least as powerful as God – only we are allowed to choose. God can only make the offer and hope we’ll come to Him. The same argument follows for Perseverance of the Saints as with Irresistible Grace. Either we can cooperate with God or we can block His will. God is reduced to a sideline cheerleader almost pleading with us to take His offer. This is not the God I see explained in the scriptures.
Secondly, about the Fall; the most glorious thing about being Reformed is the knowledge that God meant for Adam to fall – it was His express will. It had to be, or the Elect, known before time, would not have been necessary. If there were some chance that Adam would not sin, then all might have been able to live in Eden. Out of that, God changed us from created people – made from dust and bone – into sons of God, joint heirs with Christ. We are brothers to the Only Begotten Son of the Father! All because of the fall and the Redemption that God planned from the beginning.
Adam, before the fall, was only a created being. Adam, after the establishment of Christ’s church outside the garden, was a son of God; he was made equal to Christ through the imputation of Christ’s righteousness.
First, the key difference in my mind between Reformed thinking (TULIP theology) and cooperative faith, either Catholic or other denominations like Methodist, Baptist, etc, boils down to God’s sovereignty.
Either God is completely sovereign, and His will is all that comes to pass, or God somehow allows His own will to be thwarted by His creation. In cooperative theology, Christ’s death was sufficient for all to come to God, yet only those who choose to are saved unto life. This means that God’s will is thwarted by the millions of souls who chose to reject Him. This renders man at least as powerful as God – only we are allowed to choose. God can only make the offer and hope we’ll come to Him. The same argument follows for Perseverance of the Saints as with Irresistible Grace. Either we can cooperate with God or we can block His will. God is reduced to a sideline cheerleader almost pleading with us to take His offer. This is not the God I see explained in the scriptures.
Secondly, about the Fall; the most glorious thing about being Reformed is the knowledge that God meant for Adam to fall – it was His express will. It had to be, or the Elect, known before time, would not have been necessary. If there were some chance that Adam would not sin, then all might have been able to live in Eden. Out of that, God changed us from created people – made from dust and bone – into sons of God, joint heirs with Christ. We are brothers to the Only Begotten Son of the Father! All because of the fall and the Redemption that God planned from the beginning.
Adam, before the fall, was only a created being. Adam, after the establishment of Christ’s church outside the garden, was a son of God; he was made equal to Christ through the imputation of Christ’s righteousness.
T
theogrit
Guest
You know, I think Cre8ton put it best in the flavour of the OP, “I am very curious about TULIP (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace and Perseverance of the Saints) and where and why this conflicts with Catholic doctrine.
” There is a Christian curiosity in our times of what we’ve either lost or left behind us. Both Catholics and Protestants are curious regarding the Jewish roots of Christianity, inviting rabbis to teach them of Passover and Hebraisms. Roman Catholics are curious about what may have been lost in the Great Schism with our Eastern brothers. Reformers, who these days are a far departure from the trappings of Luther and Calvin (who both would be quite shocked, for example, at the general demeanor of their descendants in sitting in pews for prayer rather than bending the knee), are curious about all the political intrigue and atrocities surrounding the cleaning of Christianity through reformation. Even most Presbyterians and Baptists have adapted to celebrations of Christmas and Easter, and frankly are rather fumbling in forms and fashions of liturgy and a church calendar (nowhere more illustrated than recent ‘Hallowe’en’ activities).In many ways I’m of the old school, who sees in Christmas a great ill and compromise from the religion delivered to us by Jesus, Peter, and Paul. In other ways there is no greater burden on my heart than the immortal words of the One who died for me,
"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.” (Jon 17:21-23, NAB)
My favourite writers are C. S. Lewis and J.R.Tolkien (who, themselves, were great friends), and my favourite theologian is R. C. Sproul, but I cannot claim the Catholicism of Tolkien or the Anglicanism of Lewis, and my Reformed theology is more severe than that of Sproul. The best I can do is unequivocally claim them all as brothers, for my part. There was a time when circumstance had me pray in concert with a Jehovah’s Witness, with whom, though counting his theology as a danger of hell-fire, we embraced humbly together in similar petition to One Supreme and superior to our need.
I don’t think ECT is quite the oneness our LORD would have, but it certainly is not the divisiveness we have fashioned, even for those Christians all under the banner of Roman Catholicism. The Shepherd knows His sheep, and that is enough for me. Though I be a stranger to the tongues of angels, the wafts of censers, or the images of a throng of spiritual ancestors, I’ll eat my Lord same as the next man, even if we take a decidedly different view of just what we’re doing and are similarly in need of our Lord to make up for whatever the each of us is missing.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
A great thanks to both my Catholic brothers and Reformed brothers for all of their postings on TULIP. I have learned much from my time here on Catholic Answers, and enjoyed it tremendously. When I look at John 17 and the call for unity, it almost seems that unity call is really fro the sake of ubelievers … so that they can believe in the Triune God that we worship together. I believe the moderators have been extremely gracious, charitable and kind with me personally… so a big thanks to them from my heart. The Christian life is truly a journey and a process. If we can keep our postings with the goal to help all of us grow in our love and affection for our Triune God, then this is a good thing.
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
How does believing that our freedom exists by God’s will in any way diminish his sovereignty?
C
ChosenAndCalled
Guest
Just a note for Reformed guys: I go to R.C. Sproul’s original church before he moved to Fla. He still calls it Ligioneer ministries after the town. It’s an amazing legacy and the current Teaching Elder is very gifted himself.
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