O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
Mr. Spencer’s works aren’t what I would suggest for clarity on this topic.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=869251
- Status
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=869251
1
1ke
Guest
Well then, we are at an end. If you cannot see that both Christians and Muslims make a claim that they are worshiping the God of the Jews, but with new and different revelation about Him, then there is no point in talking further.
Logic dictates that we all are worshiping the same God-- the one who spoke to Moses.
We all have differing beliefs about who that God is, what his nature is, and how to worship him properly. But all three religions are based on the revelation to Moses that there is one God and his name is I AM.
This would be in contrast to religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, and others, who make no claim to worship one God, let alone the one who spoke to Moses.
U
Usagi
Guest
I fear I do not have official document citations aside from the Catechism.
Look at it this way: To the Jews, our belief in the Trinity and in Jesus as God is very different from their strict monotheism. They could say that we worship a different God in the sense of a different idea of God. Historically, though, they’d have to acknowledge that we are an offshoot of them who claim to worship the God of Abraham and Moses under a fuller revelation.
Likewise, the Muslim view of God departs from ours (being similar to the Jews’ strict monotheism, though their idea of the human-divine relationship seems rather less warm than either Christianity’s or Judaism’s). We do not believe that they are right about God and we are wrong, or that both ideas can be true simultaneously – but as a historical phenomenon, Islam borrows a lot from Judaism and Christianity and claims to worship the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. (Like us compared to the Jews, they claim a fuller revelation, but we of course disagree.)
That’s it. We acknowledge that they have some portion of the truth and are attempting to worship the God of Abraham.
Here’s what that does not mean, though:
- Islam is actually a religion revealed by God to correct Judaism and Christianity
- Islam is actually revealed by God at all, as opposed to cobbled together from bits of previous religions
- Islam is true on any matter where its teachings differ from Christianity’s
- Islam is salvific
- Muslims do not need to be evangelized
Usagi
J
john81
Guest
I look at it this way, and the Church has historically as well, that if you deny Christ you do not worship the true God. Is there anyone that would dispute that? If there are Muslims or Jews INDIVIDUALLY that have no knowledge of Christ then you could say they are in “good will” seeking the Truth. But the tenants of Judaism teach that the Messiah has not come (denial of Christ as the Son of God), and the tenants of the Muslim religion teach that Christ was not the Son of God, only a prophet. If anybody holds fast to these teaching they become false God worshipers, or pagans. I know, strong words, but if you go back to the 1962 missal prayers on Good Friday (invocation prayers) you will see similar strong words.
Simpler put, you deny Christ, you deny the true God.
J
jjsmity
Guest
I am sorry I misunderstood, i thought you said we do worship the same god, not claim to worship the same god. My point was the god of ot and new are same, god of koran very different regardless of what is claimed.
“Logic dictates that we all are worshiping the same God-- the one who spoke to Moses.”
the text of the bible and koran dictate this to be untrue.
“But all three religions are based on the revelation to Moses that there is one God and his name is I AM.”
are you saying Muhammad received the same revaluation as moses? why such a different god?.
I dont want to tit for tat off topic. We clearly disagree and its not helping my misunderstand of catholic teaching on the matter.
U
Usagi
Guest
As for the Crusades, back then we also called crusades against heretical Christians. That had to do with the people in question posing a military, political, or social threat, not with their beliefs being past a certain threshold of wrongness. Nowadays (and undoubtedly more in line with Jesus’ own approach), Popes would prefer to be the ones on the sidelines counseling peace, not exhorting the nations of the world to war no matter how great the threat might be. That’s a changed attitude toward war in general, not a matter of suddenly being extra nice to Islam specifically.
Usagi
Usagi
U
Usagi
Guest
I wouldn’t go quite that far. Even the old Baltimore Catechism is careful to distinguish pagans (basically, anyone who is not a Jew, Christian, or Muslim) from monotheists, even incorrect non-Christian monotheists.
Usagi
U
Usagi
Guest
I doubt that Muhammad received an actual revelation at all, but he assembled his new religion out of bits of Judaism and Christianity, including the idea of the One God who had spoken to Abraham and Moses.
Because he was building from pieces, not receiving actual new revelation. He rejected the truth of the Trinity and took a step closer to the OT conception of God in that respect. (Yes, we can now see the Trinity alluded to from time to time in the OT, but that’s not how anyone read the OT before Jesus came to reveal that truth.)
If we disregard the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus for just a second (because Jews also reject those and yet we accept that they must be worshipping the same God since we got Him from them), what are the major differences you see between the Quran’s idea of God and the Old Testament’s?
Usagi
J
jjsmity
Guest
thank you for clarification, good posts.
this would be separate thread, maybe pm me.
G
GratefulFred
Guest
As others have said, the Church has little teaching on Islam. Rightly, the Church focuses on presenting Jesus Christ, the Living Son of God, to the world as best it can. Neither the Jews nor those who subscribe to Islam accept Jesus as the Son of God, but Mohammed did see Christ as a prophet.
While the Church has said little, scholars, both Islamic and Christian, have said much. One small book may help those who care to get it and read it. It is: “Moslems Their beliefs, practices, and politics” by Gabriel Oussani and Hilaire Belloc {O&B}. It was published in the 1930s so it does not consider the views of today.
Many people think Islam is a religion of peace and who would object to peace? According to O&B, Islam means the “entire surrender to the will of God. {pg 38}” As a Catholic, that is my goal too and my sin each time I fail.
The “entire surrender” is, IMO, a major point. Apostasy is severely punished - often death. The rights of non-Muslims are greatly limited and religious war is a sacred duty whenever there is a chance of success against the Infidel {pg 35}.
IMO, the consequence of not entirely surrendering to the will of God is carried out in this life by powerful leaders in Islam, whereas in Christianity, that consequence is a determination to be made by Jesus Christ, the Living Son of God, on Judgment Day.
While the Church has said little, scholars, both Islamic and Christian, have said much. One small book may help those who care to get it and read it. It is: “Moslems Their beliefs, practices, and politics” by Gabriel Oussani and Hilaire Belloc {O&B}. It was published in the 1930s so it does not consider the views of today.
Many people think Islam is a religion of peace and who would object to peace? According to O&B, Islam means the “entire surrender to the will of God. {pg 38}” As a Catholic, that is my goal too and my sin each time I fail.
The “entire surrender” is, IMO, a major point. Apostasy is severely punished - often death. The rights of non-Muslims are greatly limited and religious war is a sacred duty whenever there is a chance of success against the Infidel {pg 35}.
IMO, the consequence of not entirely surrendering to the will of God is carried out in this life by powerful leaders in Islam, whereas in Christianity, that consequence is a determination to be made by Jesus Christ, the Living Son of God, on Judgment Day.
I
Ignatius
Guest
Actually, it is exactly what I would heartily recommend for clarity! These clear, concise and insightful works will give a much needed dose of reality and dispel the think fog of confusion that so many advocates of Political Correctness introduce to the issue.
J
JRKH
Guest
Thanks 1ke…
From the above link, here is what the Catechism, the Church’s official teaching, says…
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
The quoted sentence is from Lumen Gentium, section 16
Peace
James
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
Yes, because the only reason to object to Mr. Spencer’s works is because of Political Correctness or some sort of secular liberal agenda. Yep, that’s why my commentary on Mr. Spencer’s work found in the link I provided is all about him not being politically correct. Oh wait, it’s not.
I
Ignatius
Guest
I wouldn’t say that’s the only reason, it’s just the most common reason.
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
Sure it is. Pointing out that Mr. Spencer lacks the necessary credentials to be classified as a scholar on, let alone an expert of, Islam is just a smoke screen for political correctness.
G
Genesis315
Guest
I can’t really answer your question definitively, because ultimately God judges how we have responded to His grace in faith and charity. But we do acknowledge that God offers all the means and possibility of salvation. To quote St. John Paul II:
“For those too who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and are not recognized as Christians, the divine plan has provided a way of salvation. As we read in the Council’s Decree Ad Gentes, we believe that “God in ways known to himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel” to the faith necessary for salvation (AG 7).”
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html
(the whole thing in the link is a great read on this general topic about how the idea that God provides for the salvation of all is to be understood in a way that does not imply religious indifferentism).
R
RBushlow
Guest
I’m with Ignatius, Robert Spencer is clear and incisive. He is is an author and blogger best known for his research on Islam and and study of Islamic terrorism and jihad. As of 2014, he has published twelve books, including two New York Times best-selling books.Sure it is. Pointing out that Mr. Spencer lacks the necessary credentials to be classified as a scholar on, let alone an expert of, Islam is just a smoke screen for political correctness.
I would definitely recommend reading his books. They are available here at the Catholic Answers bookshop: shop.catholic.com/not-peace-but-a-sword-the-great-chasm-between-christianity-and-islam.html
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
Robert Spencer is as valid as source on Islam as Matt Slick is a valid source on Catholicism.
I
Ignatius
Guest
@RBushlow, Thanks for your support.
@oldcatholicguy, I’m afraid you’re wrong on this one, ocg, Spencer has done a great deal of study on the subject and he is spot on re: The Islamic State, Jihad, etc.
I invite all of the readers to get one of his books, read it, make up your own mind after having read his work, and contribute to this conversation.
The books are available Catholic Answers store: shop.catholic.com/not-peace-but-a-sword-the-great-chasm-between-christianity-and-islam.html
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=869251
There you go, some commentary on one of his works. Should I also assume you view Mr. Slick as qualified to be considered an expert on Catholicism as Mr. Spencer is to be considered an expert on Islam?
- Status