Police: Approximately 20 dead inside Florida nightclub after mass shooting

[Good_Tidings]

I don’t understand. I just heard that the FBI just now took the video footage. How would they have had time to review it already/

This is coming from witnesses who talked to the FBI and are now talking to the news media.

 

[Darryl1958]

Well, focusing on the guns is just addressing the tools he used, to really combat the problem, you have to focus on the source…WHY he did this, it was due to his radical beliefs.

If he had not been able to use a gun, Im sure he would have found another way, maybe a large truck bomb, like McVey used in OK.

You cannot ‘regulate away’ terrorism.

Jihad rapist in Europe bring their weapons with them wherever they go.

 

[mikekle]

The terror watch list is very poorly managed, and the guy worked as an armed security guard, helping guard US Court Houses.

Unless we start sending people off to re-education camps for their suspected behavior, I don’t see how this one could have been prevented. Every jihadi probably has the DIY plans to make a pressure cooker bomb.

Yes, and Im sure ISIS has lists of people to help and assist the people that are able to get into the country, like giving them names of people in the US willing to help them with securing weapons, bombs, lodging, etc etc.

 

[Brendan]

I don’t understand. I just heard that the FBI just now took the video footage. How would they have had time to review it already/

From this CNN article,

cnn.com/2016/06/14/us/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen/index.html

Chris Callen, who worked at Pulse as a performer, told CNN’s Anderson Cooper he had seen Mateen dozens of times at the club. According to Callen’s estimate, Mateen visited Pulse twice a month over a period of three years.

The same article states this:

Investigators believe the visits were intended to surveil the locations, based on information learned in interviews.

 

[pnewton]

I guess time will tell if this was anything more than the set up for the shooting.

 

[Thorolfr]

The same article states this:

Investigators believe the visits were intended to surveil the locations, based on information learned in interviews.

Would a terrorist have been scouting out a location twice a month over a period of three years?

 

[Brendan]

Would a terrorist have been scouting out a location twice a month over a period of three years?

Why not. Look how long the 911 pilots spent in flight training. And I don’t think either of us have access to the interviews that the article said were done. So I don’t think either of us can authoritatively reject the conclusions drawn from those interviews.

 

[zerocrossing]

Can’t really say that. ISIS teaches that when someone becomes a ‘martyr’ all earthly sins will be forgiven.

If he thought he was a sinner and those around him were sinners, the terrorist attack may have been some kind of blood atonement.

We are discussing motivation of a terrorist and we don’t know enough right now. But he fits the profile.

This is exactly what I was suggesting. I was not dismissing the notion that he was a terrorist or that he was drawn to a particularly virulent brand of Islam. It’s clear that he wanted to be identified with ISIS. However, if he did have same-sex attraction, it’s not entirely outside the realm of possibility that the inherent contradiction between his desires and his religion may have drawn him to the dark underbelly of Islam - leading him to believe that destroying “infidels” and becoming a “martyr” was the only way to atone for his sins.

Please note the qualifiers in the above statement. It’s a conditional statement - a hypothetical - not a categorical. And it does not dismiss or undercut the role of Islamist terrorism in the massacre.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

To those of us who remember the Cold War. The gay angle is an obvious piece of propaganda. Used to humiliate the enemy by calling them what they hate. Embarrassing and shaming them. It’s usually a good and effective tool. Here though I fear it also damages the victims identities as well. Characterizing a closeted homosexual as something to be feared.

The man was married twice. He frequented clubs and sites to infiltrate a community he wished to destroy. He was no more gay than he was Christian if he had done this in a church but visited several and talked to Christians.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

His first wife stated that he was a wife beater. Certainly, the same personality type would continue the desire to beat their sexual conquests due to thief cowardly inclinations. Since a group of men (the new lovers) isn’t as easy to beat as a woman, I’m surprised that this has not napped earlier in the masculine same-sex-attraction romances/encounters. I remember having a conversation with a man about homosexuality and he was afraid of men being attracted to him because men are “hard wired” to pursue; and with a same sex-attraction the pursuit could be without mercy. I don’t understand how Islam teaches how a person is created (image of God?) and how the opposite sex fits into creation. I would imagine the shooter may have been trying to destroy the part of hims of that he could not come to peace with. Would a person who believes they get the 40 virgins for acts of terror get same-sex virgins if this was what they we into?

 

[zerocrossing]

To those of us who remember the Cold War. The gay angle is an obvious piece of propaganda. Used to humiliate the enemy by calling them what they hate. Embarrassing and shaming them. It’s usually a good and effective tool. Here though I fear it also damages the victims identities as well. Characterizing a closeted homosexual as something to be feared.

The man was married twice. He frequented clubs and sites to infiltrate a community he wished to destroy. He was no more gay than he was Christian if he had done this in a church but visited several and talked to Christians.

So the patrons of the bar are engaging in propaganda, when the party line in the gay community is to paint him as an outsider and a gay-hating “bigot”? What do they have to gain by countering the accepted narrative of their community?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

So the patrons of the bar are engaging in propaganda, when the party line in the gay community is to paint him as an outsider and a gay-hating “bigot”? What do they have to gain by countering the accepted narrative of their community?

I don’t understand your point.

The propaganda is that the shooter was gay. Or at least closeted. This is done to minimize the “glory” Isis and the others might give him. It’s done to try to minimize the recruitment of future jihadists.

“You will not write the ending as a mayrter, rather you will lose the ability to narrate your message when you are dead.”

 

[zerocrossing]

I don’t understand your point.

The propaganda is that the shooter was gay. Or at least closeted. This is done to minimize the “glory” Isis and the others might give him. It’s done to try to minimize the recruitment of future jihadists.

“You will not write the ending as a mayrter, rather you will lose the ability to narrate your message when you are dead.”

Let’s see if we can understand each other’s points.

My point was that the notion that he was gay is coming from homosexual men who were patrons of the club and saw him trying to pick up men there, and also from homosexual men who saw him on a gay dating app. Are you suggesting that these homosexual men are participating in some form of propaganda that undermines their own community’s propaganda about anti-gay “bigots”? I guess that’s what I’m not following. Who is engaging in the propaganda here?

I do like the idea, though, that the suggestion he was gay minimizes his “glory” among radical Muslims and minimizes the recruitment of future jihadists. I just don’t see what the gay men claiming he was gay have to gain by making that statement.

 

[Seamus_L]

And now a massive fire has broken out in Orlando rt.com/usa/346667-orlando-fire-disney-smoke/

 

[J_Peterson]

To those of us who remember the Cold War. The gay angle is an obvious piece of propaganda. Used to humiliate the enemy by calling them what they hate. Embarrassing and shaming them. It’s usually a good and effective tool. Here though I fear it also damages the victims identities as well. Characterizing a closeted homosexual as something to be feared.

The man was married twice. He frequented clubs and sites to infiltrate a community he wished to destroy. He was no more gay than he was Christian if he had done this in a church but visited several and talked to Christians.

Who is the propaganda for? The FBI is looking at every lead; they are investigating the ISIS connection, they are investigating his patronage of a gay bar and his use of gay dating apps. Who cares what the average Joe’s opinion is, the FBI is looking at everything.

Besides…Multiple marriages, irrational hate for gay people, frequenting gay bars, and using gay dating apps points to him being straight to you?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Let’s see if we can understand each other’s points.

My point was that the notion that he was gay is coming from homosexual men who were patrons of the club and saw him trying to pick up men there, and also from homosexual men who saw him on a gay dating app. Are you suggesting that these homosexual men are participating in some form of propaganda that undermines their own community’s propaganda about anti-gay “bigots”? I guess that’s what I’m not following. Who is engaging in the propaganda here?

I do like the idea, though, that the suggestion he was gay minimizes his “glory” among radical Muslims and minimizes the recruitment of future jihadists. I just don’t see what the gay men claiming he was gay have to gain by making that statement.

Trying to pick up guys does not mean he was gay. In fact many “hate crime” perpetrators make many “dry” runs to practice their crimes. In my state right now there is a murder under investigation where a man lured another man to a secluded lake and killed him. He took out many ads on Craigslist “fishing”.
It very well could be he was toying with the idea of serial killing gays or who knows. What I don’t think is that he was “gay”. It’s an interesting culture. In some Islamic countries the sex trade includes young males. Though homosexuality is forbidden and persecuted. I suppose the us equivalent is prison…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Who is the propaganda for? The FBI is looking at every lead; they are investigating the ISIS connection, they are investigating his patronage of a gay bar and his use of gay dating apps. Who cares what the average Joe’s opinion is, the FBI is looking at everything.

Besides…Multiple marriages, irrational hate for gay people, frequenting gay bars, and using gay dating apps points to him being straight to you?

I think people who walk into a bar and kill 50 people because of sexual orientation probably did some recon.

The propaganda is simple. Release information that embarrassed possible Isis recruiting.

This is not a “gay” issue. It’s an extension of the war of radical Islam with the west. We can’t seem to grasp that. So a self hating gay makes more sense to us, it isolates us from the danger.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I think people who walk into a bar and kill 50 people because of sexual orientation probably did some recon.

The propaganda is simple. Release information that embarrassed possible Isis recruiting.

This is not a “gay” issue. It’s an extension of the war of radical Islam with the west. We can’t seem to grasp that. So a self hating gay makes more sense to us, it isolates us from the danger.

So how does the puzzle piece fit that he identified at times with numerous different terrorist groups that are not affiliated with each other?

About 25 or so years ago there was another mass murder in a club in New York called Happy Land. It was arson, but the motive was a jealous ex lover.

nytimes.com/1990/03/26/nyregion/fire-bronx-87-die-blaze-illegal-club-police-arrest-ejected-patron-worst-new-york.html?pagewanted=all

Someone decides to do something like this shouldn’t the investigators look at all the possible motives? It doesn’t have to be just one motive.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

So how does the puzzle piece fit that he identified at times with numerous different terrorist groups that are not affiliated with each other?

About 25 or so years ago there was another mass murder in a club in New York called Happy Land. It was arson, but the motive was a jealous ex lover.

nytimes.com/1990/03/26/nyregion/fire-bronx-87-die-blaze-illegal-club-police-arrest-ejected-patron-worst-new-york.html?pagewanted=all

Someone decides to do something like this shouldn’t the investigators look at all the possible motives? It doesn’t have to be just one motive.

I don’t know. Who cares?

 

[Thorolfr]

The man was married twice. He frequented clubs and sites to infiltrate a community he wished to destroy. He was no more gay than he was Christian if he had done this in a church but visited several and talked to Christians.

Some men are bisexual, so the fact that he was married twice does not mean he was not also sexually attracted to other men. In the Middle East, a lot of men are bisexual.