Police: Fatal Subway Shooting Was Mistake

[Karin]

Lance:

The following should frighten Brits more than the shooting of someone who ran from the police and also acted in other suspicious ways.

Using standard survey research methods, the YouGov polling firm interviewed 526 Muslim adults across Great Britain online during July 15-22, weighing the data to reflect the British Muslim population’s age, gender, and countries of origin. The survey found that 1 percent of them, or “about 16,000 individuals, declare themselves willing, possibly even eager, to embrace violence” in the effort to bring an end to “decadent and immoral” Western society.

Should their ranks really be so thick, such a huge number of potential terrorists could cause an unprecedented security crisis for Britain, with all the attendant economic, social, political, and cultural ramifications one can imagine.

The YouGov survey contains many other statistics that should interest, if not shock, Britons and other Westerners.

Muslims who see the 7/7 bombing attacks in London as justified on balance: 6 percent.
Who feel sympathy for the “feelings and motives” of those who carried out the 7/7 attacks: 24 percent.
Understand “why some people behave in that way”: 56 percent.
Disagree with Tony Blair’s description of the ideology of the London bombers as “perverted and poisonous”: 26 percent.
Feel not loyal towards Britain: 16 percent.
Agree that “Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end”: 32 percent willing to use non-violent means and (as noted above) 1 percent willing to use violence “if necessary.” Just 56 percent of Muslims agree with the statement that “Western society may not be perfect but Muslims should live with it and not seek to bring it to an end.”
Agree that “British political leaders don’t mean it when they talk about equality. They regard the lives of white British people as more valuable than the lives of British Muslims”: 52 percent.
Dismiss political party leaders as insincere when saying “they respect Islam and want to co-operate with Britain’s Muslim communities”: 50 percent.
Doubt that anyone charged with and tried for the 7/7 attacks would receive a fair trial: 44 percent.
Would not inform on a Muslim religious leader “trying to ‘radicalise’ young Muslims by preaching hatred against the West”: 10 percent.
Do not think people have a duty to go to the police if they “see something in the community that makes them feel suspicious”: 14 percent.
Believe other Muslims would be reluctant to go to the police “about anything they see that makes them suspicious”: 41 percent.
Would inform the police if they believed that knew about the possible planning of a terrorist attack: 73 percent. (In this case, the Daily Telegraph did not make available the negative percentage.)
Another opinion poll, this one commissioned by Sky News and carried out by Communicate Research (which interviewed 462 UK-based Muslims by telephone) found similar results:

Muslims who agree with what the London suicide bombers did: 2 percent.
Who believe there is a Koranic justification for the bombings: 5 percent.
Disagree with the statement that “Muslim clerics who preach violence against the West are out of touch with mainstream Muslim opinion”: 46 percent.
Think of themselves as Muslim first and British second: 46 percent. Another 42 percent do not differentiate between the identities. A mere 12 percent see themselves as British first and Muslim second.

Just wondering here…but are there stats for nonmuslim opinions to these things??? Be nice to compare the two.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Just wondering here…but are there stats for nonmuslim opinions to these things??? Be nice to compare the two.

This poll is seriously flawed. The sample is very small and the respondents are paid. Regular respondents can easily adjust their answers so that they are called back for the next poll for which they are also paid.

 

[MikeWM]

Lance:

The following should frighten Brits more than the shooting of someone who ran from the police and also acted in other suspicious ways.

Using standard survey research methods, the YouGov polling firm interviewed 526 Muslim adults across Great Britain online during July 15-22, weighing the data to reflect the British Muslim population’s age, gender, and countries of origin. The survey found that 1 percent of them, or “about 16,000 individuals, declare themselves willing, possibly even eager, to embrace violence” in the effort to bring an end to “decadent and immoral” Western society.

Hmm. Frankly this proves very little. See the thread about ‘a quarter of muslims agree with the motive of the attacks’ for some problematic facts about YouGov.

1% of that sample is 5 people. We have absolutely no idea what sample was taken, whether they were paying attention to the survey (you get paid to complete YouGov surveys, so there is a great temptation to just fill them in without thinking - I know, I’ve done it myself), or even whether they just clicked the wrong box.

Also, for a sample of 526, there’s about a 4% margin of error. You can’t read anything at all into a 1% result.

Finally, it is one thing saying you are ‘willing to embrace violence’ as some sort of ideaological concept. Actually doing it tends to be rather harder.

Still, even with all those caveats, we certainly can’t be complacent about radical ‘Islam’, for sure.

Mike

 

[Karin]

MikeWM:

we certainly can’t be complacent about radical ‘Islam’, for sure.

Mike

**I am glad to see that it is only “radical Islam” that you are targeting and not Islam in general. Or am I wrong??? **

 

[MikeWM]

**I am glad to see that it is only “radical Islam” that you are targeting and not Islam in general. Or am I wrong??? **

No, you are entirely right (look for various other posts I’ve done in the last couple of weeks).

I call it radical ‘Islam’ with quotes because I don’t think it worthy of the name Islam. Islam, as practiced by the vast majority, is a peaceful and interesting religion.

I call these extremeists Islamic to the same extent that I call the IRA Catholics, ie. not very much at all…

Mike

 

[Karin]

MikeWM:

No, you are entirely right (look for various other posts I’ve done in the last couple of weeks).

I call it radical ‘Islam’ with quotes because I don’t think it worthy of the name Islam. Islam, as practiced by the vast majority, is a peaceful and interesting religion.

I call these extremeists Islamic to the same extent that I call the IRA Catholics, ie. not very much at all…

Mike

 

[Lance]

MikeWM:

No, you are entirely right (look for various other posts I’ve done in the last couple of weeks).

I call it radical ‘Islam’ with quotes because I don’t think it worthy of the name Islam. Islam, as practiced by the vast majority, is a peaceful and interesting religion.

I call these extremeists Islamic to the same extent that I call the IRA Catholics, ie. not very much at all…

Mike

The problem is that the ones you call radicals make up at least 10% of Islam. The IRA never made up 1% of 10% of Catholics. I don’t recall a shortage of Catholic leaders condemning the bombings by the IRA, in The States we don’t see Islamic leaders taking a strong stand against terrorist acts. Do I believe the government should target young Islamic men for searches at airports, train stations and other public areas? You bet I do. My son-in-law is a Lebanise Christian and he gets pulled aside because of his looks and he says he would rather spend a few minutes being searched because of a profile than get on a plane with a terrorist.

 

[MikeWM]

Lance:

The problem is that the ones you call radicals make up at least 10% of Islam.

Well, I’m far from sure about that figure. Even the flawed YouGov survey suggested either 1% or 5%.

The IRA never made up 1% of 10% of Catholics.

Perhaps not as those strictly in the IRA, but I’m reserving judgement on those who sympathised or agreed with their grievances, if not their specific violent acts.

I don’t recall a shortage of Catholic leaders condemning the bombings by the IRA, in The States we don’t see Islamic leaders taking a strong stand against terrorist acts.

As I’ve mentioned in many other posts, I can’t speak for the States, but the Islamic leaders in the UK have repeatedly and consistently condemned those responsible for the bombings. We had a cross-party meeting in Downing Street, there have been vigils, adverts in the newspapers, multi-faith meetings, press releases, and very strong words about rooting out the extremists.

Of course words are just words, and we’ll have to see how they deliver on rooting out the extremists. Time will tell, but I believe their sincerity to try.

Do I believe the government should target young Islamic men for searches at airports, train stations and other public areas? You bet I do. My son-in-law is a Lebanise Christian and he gets pulled aside because of his looks and he says he would rather spend a few minutes being searched because of a profile than get on a plane with a terrorist.

I don’t quite see how that would help. It wouldn’t have prevented 9/11 or the London bombs. There’s enough white people involved in radical Islam, the mullahs will just brainwash some white people to become bombers if you do this, and meanwhile innocent people will be judged on the way they look. The profiles used for profiling are easy enough to work out, and will be got around.

Mike

 

[Lance]

MikeWM:

I don’t quite see how that would help. It wouldn’t have prevented 9/11 or the London bombs. There’s enough white people involved in radical Islam, the mullahs will just brainwash some white people to become bombers if you do this, and meanwhile innocent people will be judged on the way they look. The profiles used for profiling are easy enough to work out, and will be got around.

Mike

I don’t see how you can say that. If we had searched the Arabs/Muslims on 9/11 we surely would have found the box cutters and on 7/7 they would have found the bombs. Until they start getting around the profile we have of terrorists we should use it.

 

[Karin]

Lance:

I don’t see how you can say that. If we had searched the Arabs/Muslims on 9/11 we surely would have found the box cutters and on 7/7 they would have found the bombs. Until they start getting around the profile we have of terrorists we should use it.

HECK …why debate…just search everyone…white, black arab etc. That way there is no racial profiling since everyone is getting searched…and wont everyone be happy then?!

 

[Lance]

HECK …why debate…just search everyone…white, black arab etc. That way there is no racial profiling since everyone is getting searched…and wont everyone be happy then?!

Because until we see 80 year old black ladies in wheel chairs carrying bombs it is a waste of time and money to search them. Should they go through normal security procedures? Absolutly! I just think we should target young Arabs/Muslims for extra security checks.

 

[MikeWM]

Lance:

I don’t see how you can say that. If we had searched the Arabs/Muslims on 9/11 we surely would have found the box cutters and on 7/7 they would have found the bombs. Until they start getting around the profile we have of terrorists we should use it.

Err… box cutters were allowed on flights before 9/11. Now that they are not allowed, there is no reason they can’t be picked up at security along with everyone else, like the incredible amount of nail scissors and similar that have been confiscated.

And the concept of searching people, even a tiny subset of them, before they get on the London Underground or on a bus, is utterly impractical. 6 million people a day use London Transport, with a very large proportion of ethnic minorities. How do you do a security check of someone catching a bus? Have a security officer at every bus stop??! And have you seen the sheer mass of people that pass through a tube station in the rush hour?

Mike

 

[Karin]

Lance:

Because until we see 80 year old black ladies in wheel chairs carrying bombs it is a waste of time and money to search them. Should they go through normal security procedures? Absolutly! I just think we should target young Arabs/Muslims for extra security checks.

**Lance: **
**I am hoping that you are not being racist here…but why not just search everyone that way there is no racial profiling and everyone is treated equally. Or do equallity rights only apply to non-arab looking people?? You do know that some arabs are light skinned, blond hair and blue eyes/green eyes right?? **

 

[Lance]

**Lance: **
**I am hoping that you are not being racist here…but why not just search everyone that way there is no racial profiling and everyone is treated equally. Or do equallity rights only apply to non-arab looking people?? You do know that some arabs are light skinned, blond hair and blue eyes/green eyes right?? **

Racist? MY daughter is married to an Arab. He is a Christian but Arab non the less and he looks Arabic. He has no problem with going through extra security. I also said Arab/Muslim because not ever Muslim is Arabic. Can we screen every Muslim? No, but we can forget the old ladies after they clear normal security and focus on the ‘profile’.

 

[MikeWM]

Lance:

Racist? MY daughter is married to an Arab. He is a Christian but Arab non the less and he looks Arabic. He has no problem with going through extra security. I also said Arab/Muslim because not ever Muslim is Arabic. Can we screen every Muslim? No, but we can forget the old ladies after they clear normal security and focus on the ‘profile’.

How are you going to screen white Muslims then? Are you going to be required to state your religion when you check-in? Maybe it should be in your passport. Or maybe you could wear a little badge saying what religion you are?

I’m not suggesting you’re going there, but I think you see where I’m going with this.

Mike

 

[Karin]

Lance:

Racist? MY daughter is married to an Arab.
.

**Lance: **
I apologize…I missed that part of your post.

 

[Lance]

MikeWM:

How are you going to screen white Muslims then? Are you going to be required to state your religion when you check-in? Maybe it should be in your passport. Or maybe you could wear a little badge saying what religion you are?

I’m not suggesting you’re going there, but I think you see where I’m going with this.

Mike

I said we will not screen all Arabs or Muslims because many do not fit the profile but lets at least screen the ones who do fit the profile.

 

[Lance]

**Lance: **
I apologize…I missed that part of your post.

No problem. After all you did not accuse me of being racist, you simply stated that you hoped I was not.

 

[MikeWM]

Lance:

I said we will not screen all Arabs or Muslims because many do not fit the profile but lets at least screen the ones who do fit the profile.

I query how much use this is though. It seems that all it will achieve is in creating a sense of injustice to some people, giving the extremists further weapons, without achieving much if anything.

You can’t do it on London Transport, it is just impossible. And it wouldn’t have prevented 9/11. These people are going for gaps in our defences (gaps like the fact it was perfectly legal to take a box-cutter onto an aeroplane). If we profile certain types of people in certain places, they’ll just move onto other types of people or other places.

That may sound a bit defeatist - that’s not my intention, but I simply don’t think profiling works in these cases.

Mike

 

[Karin]

:clapping:

MikeWM:

I query how much use this is though. It seems that all it will achieve is in creating a sense of injustice to some people, giving the extremists further weapons, without achieving much if anything.

You can’t do it on London Transport, it is just impossible. And it wouldn’t have prevented 9/11. These people are going for gaps in our defences (gaps like the fact it was perfectly legal to take a box-cutter onto an aeroplane). If we profile certain types of people in certain places, they’ll just move onto other types of people or other places.

That may sound a bit defeatist - that’s not my intention, but I simply don’t think profiling works in these cases.

Mike