Poll: California Catholics strongly support homosexual unions

[4Squarebaby]

To be a" Catholic" is to be in complete agreement not only about the faith, but about how non-Catholics must behave. Regardless of the Constitution.

So a Patriotic American Catholic is an oxymoron?

I think this falls into a political and not theological inter-Catholic discussions. On any other sub forum of this site when talking to non-Catholics it would be said merely being baptized as an infant makes one a Catholic and binds one to follow Catholic rules in marriage etc.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I think this falls into a political and not theological inter-Catholic discussions. On any other sub forum of this site when talking to non-Catholics it would be said merely being baptized as an infant makes one a Catholic and binds one to follow Catholic rules in marriage etc.

That’s not correct. The Church does not bind a baby to follow Catholic rules. If the child is baptized in a valid Protestant baptismal ceremony, it is a Protestant; Catholicism doesn’t apply.

 

[sedonaman]

Were you addressing me? Your question in #54 asked who Fr. Corapi is. That’s what I asked; I’d never heard of him. So, surely you’re not asking me.

Can’t you read? In #78, for your convenience, I restated my question from #54:
… would a survey be fair if the pollster asked only California Catholic bishops? Why or why not?

 

[Andrew1983]

Repeated for Truth.

**They are NOT Catholics. **

I’m thinking Heretics or Apostates.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Can’t you read? In #78, for your convenience, I restated my question from #54:
… would a survey be fair if the pollster asked only California Catholic bishops? Why or why not?

Sorry, I can’t read.

 

[severus68]

Sorry, I can’t read.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Would anybody be surprised if anyone in California, Catholics or otherwise, support gay marriage? I mean, Hollywood and the mass media has bombarded us with pro-gay message for years. I’m not surprised people are now being led astray.

 

[severus68]

I don’t know what country you are from, but in the U.S., laws are made to 1) encourage the desirable, and 2) discourage the undesirable. Marriage is not a civil right. Here again, in the U.S., the government is charged with protecting a person’s rights. If I want to marry, and no woman will marry me, should the government force one into marriage with me just to ensure a supposed “right”? Of course not, and that’s why marriage is not a right: government cannot ensure it.

This is a different question altogether; but let me say that you don’t stop an activity [or even reduce it] by encouraging it. IOW, activity that is rewarded is likely to be repeated.

Nor is adultery a civil right, but just you wait.

YOU DIDN’T READ THE ARTICLE.

Liberalism is a sin. Not that you’ll read it, liberalismisasin.com .

This is an absurd statement, for the law is the codification of values and morals. You must legislate morality . . . Think what a law is. It is, in fact, the imposition of morality. After all, a law states that there is something you must do or something you must not. This implies that the “something” is defined as being a moral imperative, morally wrong or right according to some moral standard. This is indisputable, for if something isn’t a moral imperative, why force people to do it? And if something isn’t morally wrong, why prevent people from doing it? In the end, someone’s [or some group’s] concept of right and wrong will be imposed on society, for we must have laws. Why else do you think liberals fight so hard to get elected and pass laws mandating their agenda?

If there is a more absurd statement, I’d like to know what it is. It is even more absurd than the one above. If it is not normal, why would we approve of it? Catholics are charged with building a more just society, as liberals are so fond of reminding us, but you don’t do it by supporting what has been declared by the Church to be an intrinsic evil, nor by ostracizing and isolating men from society.

I see your idea of discussing is being rude. Never mind, lets talk about absurdity:-

This world has people of different religions, some agnostics and some atheists. The best any fair government can do is to legislate universal values For example, every sane person would agree that murder is wrong and every country would have a law making murder a crime.Then we come to values that not everyone holds. I have made it very clear that I m only talking about civil rights. I am talking about legal rights of property for e.g. No one is asking for laws to force anyone to marry. That is absurd.

You are not replyng to whatI said, just repeating. Allowing them basic civil rights is not going to increase or reduce such behaviour.

Oh dear, did you not understand the analogy I was making. If people who sin shoud not have civil rights, then does that apply to - wait - all of us?

The author just makes absurd statements.

I can’t get into the link you posted but your statement is absurd . Why are you so riled about that word? Do you associate ancient Roman orgies with it? I associate it with social values and justice.

If you live for example in a Muslim country for example, would you take on the values of Islamic law for example would you help in the removal of someone’s hand for stealing Would you have more than one wife? Closer home, abortion is legal in the US, so is embryonic stem cell research now I gather Will your values change and will you participate in either or both?

You are not approving homosexual behaviour by allowing them their basic rights. You would show them that while the Church does not condone such acts, the Church and her people believe in Christian charity, that we do not hate them.

 

[cc102006]

To the contrary; they are actually Catholic, if you believe the Church. Committing sins makes you a sinning Catholic, not an ex-Catholic.

I understand that too. But if you want to take this a step further. Validly baptized Protestants are also Catholic. They just don’t know it yet.

 

[GratefulFred]

catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=7008

How sad. This is a travesty! It would seem that the majority of California’s Catholics are not Catholic at all but are Catholic in name only! A bunch of cafeteria “Catholics” is what we have here!

When we look at a group by way of a classic Bell Curve we might agree to this representation:

20% Strong conservative Catholic
20% Moderately conservative Catholic
20% Middle of the road Catholic
20% Moderately liberal Catholic
20% Strong Liberal Catholic
100% Call themselves Catholic

But if we, for the sake of trying to understand better, define conservative as a consciencous attempt to adhere as closely as we can to the TRUTH Jesus Christ teaches us through His Life and HIS Church, then we can visualize the grouping as a BULLESYE target with TRUTH being the Bulleye.

Then we can set up a series of targets of concentric circles, each being an element of our Catholic Faith. On some targets each of us hit the bulleye or fairly close. On other targets we barely hit the outside ring, far from adhering to the TRUTH. On some we may totally miss.

I think it important that we each underatand that what we PERSONALLY think may not be the TRUTH Christ would have us accept and adhere to but rather it just may the IDEA we choose for ourselves. Such personal choice may be out of a lack of proper formation in the Catholic Faith or out of an arrogant attempt to do our own thing and NOT God’s thing.

So three questions to measure:

1. WHY do we hold the positions we do on various elements of Faith?
2. **HOW **do we know our position is indeed consistent with the TRUTH Christ teaches us?
3. WHAT are we doing to come closer to the TRUTH Christ teaches?

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I understand that too. But if you want to take this a step further. Validly baptized Protestants are also Catholic. They just don’t know it yet.

And validly baptized Catholics are also Protestants, to the extent that we share a valid baptism (immersion or pouring, but not sprinkling; and baptizing with the Triune formula).

Better just to say that validly baptized Catholics and Protestants are both Christians.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

But if we, for the sake of trying to understand better, define conservative as a consciencous attempt to adhere as closely as we can to the TRUTH Jesus Christ teaches us through His Life and HIS Church, then we can visualize the grouping as a BULLESYE target with TRUTH being the Bulleye.

If you create your own definitions, then a conservative or liberal can be anything you want them to be.

Better to use orthodox (from the Greek, “having the right opinion”), which is a more correct term.

 

[1234]

According to the latest CARA statistics, only 22% of US Catholics attend mass weekly.

The Mormons donated millions to defeat Prop 8 in California. If they donated millions in my state to defeat a referendum which did not concern them --few Mormons live here–I would resent it, regardless of how I voted.

 

[4Squarebaby]

The Mormons donated millions to defeat Prop 8 in California. If they donated millions in my state to defeat a referendum which did not concern them --few Mormons live here–I would resent it, regardless of how I voted.

How do you figure that it doesn’t concern them? They may have less members but in most cases they believe the same things as you and I. And are as involved with the issue as whatever organized group pushed for first a law then a constitutional amendment.

It concerns them because it is the first step of the US Supreme Court forcing the issue on Utah and all Americans.

 

[GratefulFred]

GratefulFred;6925903:

But if we, for the sake of trying to understand better

, define conservative as a consciencous attempt to adhere as closely as we can to the TRUTH Jesus Christ teaches us through His Life and HIS Church, then we can visualize the grouping as a BULLESYE target with TRUTH being the Bulleye.

If you create your own definitions, then a conservative or liberal can be anything you want them to be.

Better to use orthodox (from the Greek, “having the right opinion”), which is a more correct term.
Thank you, Rich. I will use orthodox in the future.

“Opinion” doesn’t quite nail it down for me. Truth is Truth, period. THE TRUTH comes from God through the Bible and Jesus Christ and the Church HE established.

In relation to the Truth, it is a matter of reaching for a more perfect understanding of the Truth. Opinion misses the need to improve.

My WHY, HOW, and WHAT questions above go toward the constant effort to know God’s internt for us much better in each element of our Faith.

But perhaps I am jsut reading too much into the word “opinion.”

Nonetheless, orthodox is the better term.

Thanks,

 

[sedonaman]

Sorry, I can’t read.

I didn’t think so. Nor do you understand statistics.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Rich Olszewski;6925977:

Thank you, Rich. I will use orthodox in the future.

“Opinion” doesn’t quite nail it down for me. Truth is Truth, period. THE TRUTH comes from God through the Bible and Jesus Christ and the Church HE established.

In relation to the Truth, it is a matter of reaching for a more perfect understanding of the Truth. Opinion misses the need to improve.

My WHY, HOW

, and WHAT questions above go toward the constant effort to know God’s internt for us much better in each element of our Faith.

But perhaps I am jsut reading too much into the word “opinion.”

Nonetheless, orthodox is the better term.

Thanks,

The word orthodox, from Greek orthodoxos “having the right opinion”, from orthos (“right”, “true”, “straight”) + doxa (“opinion” or “praise”, related to dokein, “to think”) is typically used to mean the adherence to well-researched and well-thought-out accepted norms, especially in religion.

So, the translated word “opinion” in Greek doesn’t have as weak a connotation as the word “opinion” in English.

 

[sedonaman]

According to the latest CARA statistics, only 22% of US Catholics attend mass weekly.
…

For the sake of the survey only, members of the other 78% should be eliminated from the sample, assuming the goal is to determine how Catholics feel about homosexual “marriage”. In fact, it is a meaningless survey for that purpose in any event, for a true Catholic would know that it is one of the five intrinsic evils and would not support it a all, and the support would be predictably 0%, that is, nada, zero, zilch, zip. The survey does serve another purpose, though perhaps not intended: how many are out of touch with the church’s teaching.

As political pollsters go to great lengths to get representative data by eliminating those not likely to vote, this poll should have wrung out lapsed, non-practicing and marginal Catholics.

And before anyone has a fit, let me say this has nothing to do with anyone’s standing in God’s eyes.

 

[sedonaman]

When we look at a group by way of a classic Bell Curve we might agree to this representation:

20% Strong conservative Catholic
20% Moderately conservative Catholic
20% Middle of the road Catholic
20% Moderately liberal Catholic
20% Strong Liberal Catholic
100% Call themselves Catholic

But if we, for the sake of trying to understand better, define conservative as a consciencous attempt to adhere as closely as we can to the TRUTH Jesus Christ teaches us through His Life and HIS Church, then we can visualize the grouping as a BULLESYE target with TRUTH being the Bulleye.

Then we can set up a series of targets of concentric circles, each being an element of our Catholic Faith. On some targets each of us hit the bulleye or fairly close. On other targets we barely hit the outside ring, far from adhering to the TRUTH. On some we may totally miss.

I think it important that we each underatand that what we PERSONALLY think may not be the TRUTH Christ would have us accept and adhere to but rather it just may the IDEA we choose for ourselves. Such personal choice may be out of a lack of proper formation in the Catholic Faith or out of an arrogant attempt to do our own thing and NOT God’s thing.

So three questions to measure:

1. WHY do we hold the positions we do on various elements of Faith?
2. **HOW **do we know our position is indeed consistent with the TRUTH Christ teaches us?
3. WHAT are we doing to come closer to the TRUTH Christ teaches?

I think a major part of the problem is that too many Catholics view the Church as a governing body instead of a teaching body, therefore, they think a wide spectrum of opinions should be acceptable as being truth, and we can, consequently even vote on what truth is.

 

[sedonaman]

They are NOT Catholics.

It is easy for people to refer to themselves as any number of things…does not make it true.

Mega