Poll regarding "Are Charismatics truly Catholic?"

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Vitus:
SPOKENWORD, from reading your posts, you are obviously not Catholic. In fact, I’d wager that you are a fundamentalist, and a new age fundamentalist at that. Your talk of the armor of God, spiritual warfare, calling demons and loosing angels and many of your other posts give you away.

Why would I mention this? Because I’ve been there. I’ve taught it. I’ve been to revivals, laid hands on people, spoken in “tongues” over them, been “slain in the spirit”, prophecied and given words of knowledge. I’ve been there. And as hard as it is for you to wrap your mind around, it’s not right. It’s not historical supported in church teachings, it’s not biblically supported when taken in context. It may “feel right” but that doesn’t make it so.

Good intentions under the pretense of bad exegesis still takes root in error.
Vitas. I know you believe the things I say are new age, but the truth is they are from Gods written Word. Just because you been there doesnt make you an expert on this topic. Thats one of the problem, some have been there and have no idea what they are talking about. Just because I sleep in the garage doesnt make me a car.Get the point. I disagree with you saying that it is not biblically supported. Its not about feelings, feelings can be deceptive. Remember satan is a deciever,and he will do all in his power to put doubt in your mind. God Bless. :confused:
 
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JimO:
Now read the last part of verse 28 “…each one speaking only to himself and God.” This says clearly that if there is nobody present with the gift of interpretation, each one should speak to himself and to God. In context, it suggests that speaking in tongues is not prohibited, only that speaking tongues aloud without an interpretor is out of order. One is not prohibited from using a personal prayer tongue, or “praying in the spirit” (go back to verse 14).

I will find the reference.
If you read what I posted you should know that when there’s no interpretation I always said to them to be silenced and pray to God privately.

I’m still waiting for another possible interpretation of 1 cor 14:27-28
 
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beng:
If you read what I posted you should know that when there’s no interpretation I always said to them to be silenced and pray to God privately.
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beng:
Your charismatic experince would be forbidden if you speak tongues amongst believer (in a prayer meeting, in a charismatic gathering, in church) and there was no interpretation. Read 1Cor 14:27-28.
(emphasis added, to illustrate difference between “praying out of order” and “forbidden/prohibited”. some of us attempt to gently correct our fellow believers, in a spirit of love)
 
justinw said:
(emphasis added, to illustrate difference between “praying out of order” and “forbidden/prohibited”. some of us attempt to gently correct our fellow believers, in a spirit of love)

read

*Your charismatic experince would be forbidden **if *you speak tongues amongst believer (in a prayer meeting, in a charismatic gathering, in church) and there was no interpretation. Read 1Cor 14:27-28.
 
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JimO:
Read I Cor 14:2 as an isolated verse. It gives the opposite impression of verses 27-28.

Now read the last part of verse 28 “…each one speaking only to himself and God.” This says clearly that if there is nobody present with the gift of interpretation, each one should speak to himself and to God. In context, it suggests that speaking in tongues is not prohibited, only that speaking tongues aloud without an interpretor is out of order. One is not prohibited from using a personal prayer tongue, or “praying in the spirit” (go back to verse 14).
You can not read isolated verses, you must take the whole chapter in context. In context of audience and in context of meaning.

Others speak of the personal prayer language using this approach, but it doesn’t flush out. Paul is trying to stop the chaos brought out by the mystery religions in Corinth. He was trying to weed out those with false gifts, which resulted in all kinds of chaos, tongues being one of the biggest problems. So he wants to make sure it is a real gift, hence the interpreters. Remember, tongues is not for believer, but the unbeliever (

How did he come to this? Look at the preceding verses.

6-8 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare himself for battle?

Paul is emphasizing not only the need for authenticity but also saying that tongues are purposeful, they serve a purpose. Musical instruments aren’t much good if you don’t know how to make the notes.

9-11 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.

Actual words, actual languages. Otherwise? It’s like you are talking to wall, or in Paul’s words “speaking into the air”.

12-14* Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel. Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. *

Edification of the church, not the self. Why? No understanding.

15-16 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?

What does he conclude? That we should use some kind of personal tongue as a prayer language? NO! Just the opposite. Pray with spirit AND understanding. Sing with spirit AND understanding. Why? Because it isn’t edifying to anyone if it’s not understood.

17-20 *For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. *

Again, Paul emphasizes tongues are for the church, NOT for the self. It’s more important to understand.

Again and again, tongues is for the church, not the self. Where is the personal prayer language encouragement? And why does Paul keep saying that tongues is the exact opposite of “personal”?!
 
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justinw:
They have a weekly prayer meeting of the whole community, and smaller prayer groups of a few men or a few women. Additionally, they each ask somebody who is spiritually more mature than themselves to form a spiritual director relationship with them for accountability. Everybody agrees to this when they join, no matter how “mature” they are.

Sounds exactly like the Charismatic Church I attended for years. In fact, I was a leader in the yound adults group. Home study groups along with Sunday service was the norm.
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justinw:
At one of their meetings, where tongues are not an uncommon occurrence, Mom heard something she recognized, but had not heard in years. She looked around to figure out who it was, and was shocked. What she was hearing was the Lord’s Prayer, except in Hebrew! She was sure that this person had no experience with that language, and she even confirmed it with the person. The person was simply experiencing the gift of tongues, and could only understand that the Holy Spirit was speaking through him. Wow! Mom also felt blessed to be the interpreter.

The human mind is a wonderful thing and can pick up language snippets subconsciously. I’m not saying that this is what happened here, but I’m throwing it out as a possibility. A bible student reading hebrew and, in the correct frame of mind, it comes out. I’m also not saying that speaking in tongues is not in the realm of possibility (I’ve also heard stories), but it troubles me when you say is was “not an uncommon occurrence”. It wasn’t an uncommon occurance in Corinth either, THAT was the problem. Ecstatic speech (glossoholia) was a common occurrence among non-christian religions. It still is. Paul was trying to curb the very thing you describe.
 
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Vitus:
The human mind is a wonderful thing and can pick up language snippets subconsciously. I’m not saying that this is what happened here, but I’m throwing it out as a possibility. A bible student reading hebrew and, in the correct frame of mind, it comes out. I’m also not saying that speaking in tongues is not in the realm of possibility (I’ve also heard stories), but it troubles me when you say is was “not an uncommon occurrence”. It wasn’t an uncommon occurance in Corinth either, THAT was the problem. Ecstatic speech (glossoholia) was a common occurrence among non-christian religions. It still is. Paul was trying to curb the very thing you describe.
Snippets? The entire Lord’s prayer, in order? Perhaps, as you say, the mind is wonderful, and we human beings are very powerful. I don’t deny that. In a great many subjects, there can exist a secular language parallel to the spiritual description. (i.e., the concept of evolution in and of itself is not in conflict with Christianity) So this mysterious “subconscious” of ours… (growing less mysterious by the day) couldn’t the Holy Spirit work through and with it? Just throwing it out as a possibility.

“not an uncommon occurrence” does not mean that it’s happening in overabundance. It doesn’t mean that it’s a frequent occurence, just that it is something that they are all familiar with and not distracted by. So quite possibly the opposite of what you believe Paul was trying to curb.
 
beng,

You’re still waiting for another interpretation for I Cor 14:27-28? Who’s? Mine or the Church’s? You ignored most of my post. I told you that I would provide a reference indicating where the Church stands on the issue of tongues. It’s early and I still need coffee! 🙂

I also clearly said that if you can show me where the Church (and not you) has stated that tongues are false, inappropriate, no longer in existence, “the devil’s work” or any other official criticism of any kind, that I will stand corrected! Don’t give me any more vague personal interpretations of Scripture. I won’t waste my time debating personal interpretations of Scripture, particularly when you claim that the Church has spoken infallibly with regards to tongues.

Forgive the heated response 😦 , but it was a bit offensive to openly share my experience on this thread only to have you dismiss my personal spiritual journey and suggest, in a self-righteous tone (“It doesn’t matter how broad the brush is.”), that I have been disloyal to the Church.
 
Vitus,

Thanks for sharing your experience and for your rational response to my comments. I didn’t intend to get into a debate in the defense of tongues. If I had “bought into” the entire Charismatic movement, I’d still be involved. My original intent was to point out that many people have grown spiritually through the Renewal and that based on my experience and that of many people I know, God used it to draw otherwise nominal Catholics back to the Church and back to a more orthodox faith. Like you, I saw a lot of the emotion and “flesh” exhibited by individuals, but that doesn’t mean the entire Renewal was in conflict with the faith or the teachings of the Church.

After receiving beng’s first response, my intention was to point out that the Church has never repudiated the Charismatic Renewal or tongues. Neither has the Church broadly endorsed the Renewal in a way that would suggest that it is for everyone. If I am wrong in this understanding, then I will gladly stand corrected (I have no desire to invest myself in any idea or theology that is against Church teaching). However, all I have seen on this thread are the presentation of personal interpretations of Scriptures and unless the comments come from an authority that has the backing of Church teaching, it all comes down to personal preference and personal opinion. Opinions are fine and I respect them, but I don’t like to see opinions represented as fact, or rule, or Church teaching.

Once again - to all - if I am wrong in my understanding regarding the Church’s position on the Charismatic Renewal or the gift of tongues, I will gladly submit to being corrected.

Jim
 
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JimO:
beng,

You’re still waiting for another interpretation for I Cor 14:27-28? Who’s? Mine or the Church’s? You ignored most of my post. I told you that I would provide a reference indicating where the Church stands on the issue of tongues. It’s early and I still need coffee! 🙂
Your posts were not directed to me.

If it is, you did not say.
I also clearly said that if you can show me where the Church (and not you) has stated that tongues are false, inappropriate, no longer in existence, “the devil’s work” or any other official criticism of any kind, that I will stand corrected!
I never even said this, so of course you will stand corrected (but don’t get that over your head)
Don’t give me any more vague personal interpretations of Scripture.
Vague interpretation? I gave you the literal interpretation of the verse.

It’s for those who said that the verse doesn’t mean literal, that the burden of proof falls upon.
I won’t waste my time debating personal interpretations of Scripture, particularly when you claim that the Church has spoken infallibly with regards to tongues.
The Bible has spoke infallibly in regards to tongue.

Unless you can find me some other interpretation.
Forgive the heated response 😦 , but it was a bit offensive to openly share my experience on this thread only to have you dismiss my personal spiritual journey and suggest, in a self-righteous tone (“It doesn’t matter how broad the brush is.”), that I have been disloyal to the Church.
Human can fool themselves. So, you’re probably violating Gods law without you even knowing yourselves.
 
beng,

Do you even realize that many of your posts come across as personal attacks? It’s fine to discuss an issue, but it’s not fine to make sweeping judgements of an individual’s spirituality, particulary when all you know about that person is what is contained in an internet post. You can disagree with the person without being disrespectful.

With regard to your response, you simply refuse to address the point that I have made. Literal interpretation (even the understanding of the term “literal” varies among individuals) of isolated verses by an individual is not infallible. If the Charismatic Renewal or the gifts expressed in it were intrinsicly evil, the Church would have made a clear pronouncement, which it has not. If I am wrong, show me the pronouncement.

And please try to be more respectfull of differing opinions.

Jim
 
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JimO:
beng,

Do you even realize that many of your posts come across as personal attacks? It’s fine to discuss an issue, but it’s not fine to make sweeping judgements of an individual’s spirituality, particulary when all you know about that person is what is contained in an internet post. You can disagree with the person without being disrespectful.
If a person steal, should I do a psycho-analyzis on the guy before I conclude that he did something against the Bible?
With regard to your response, you simply refuse to address the point that I have made. Literal interpretation (even the understanding of the term “literal” varies among individuals) of isolated verses by an individual is not infallible. If the Charismatic Renewal or the gifts expressed in it were intrinsicly evil, the Church would have made a clear pronouncement, which it has not. If I am wrong, show me the pronouncement.

And please try to be more respectfull of differing opinions.

Jim
Add this point, I don’t see you coming up with alternate interpretation.

And please stop putting words in my mouth. Who said Charismatic renewal is intrinsically evil?
 
BENG, {quote] The bible has spoke infallibly in reguards to tongues. Did you get permission from the Magisteriums office on this one? :confused:
 
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SPOKENWORD:
BENG, {quote] The bible has spoke infallibly in reguards to tongues. Did you get permission from the Magisteriums office on this one? :confused:
When Jesus said “do not kill, do not steal” should we wait for the magisterium?

Don’t be naive.

You got no case. You probably have broken 1Cor14:27-28 so many times and now trying to find a little bit of justification by saying that the verse doesn’t mean like how it is.

How long are you going to disobey?
 
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justinw:
Snippets? The entire Lord’s prayer, in order? Perhaps, as you say, the mind is wonderful, and we human beings are very powerful. I don’t deny that. In a great many subjects, there can exist a secular language parallel to the spiritual description. (i.e., the concept of evolution in and of itself is not in conflict with Christianity) So this mysterious “subconscious” of ours… (growing less mysterious by the day) couldn’t the Holy Spirit work through and with it? Just throwing it out as a possibility.
Anything is possible, right? 😃

Not to insult your mother or what happened, but sometimes people here what they want (or need) to hear, especially when in a highly emotional state.

justinw said:
“not an uncommon occurrence” does not mean that it’s happening in overabundance. It doesn’t mean that it’s a frequent occurence, just that it is something that they are all familiar with and not distracted by. So quite possibly the opposite of what you believe Paul was trying to curb.

But it happened without a known translator, correct? So these tongues were being spoken without someone known to speak the language, it just so happened that your mom recognized it? Why was this person speaking then (against 1 Corinthians)? And how exactly did it benefit the church, as tongues was a sign for unbelievers, not believers like your mother and the tongue speaker?
 
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beng:
When Jesus said “do not kill, do not steal” should we wait for the magisterium?

Don’t be naive.

You got no case. You probably have broken 1Cor14:27-28 so many times and now trying to find a little bit of justification by saying that the verse doesn’t mean like how it is.

How long are you going to disobey?
Beng, Oh I see, you like to pick and chose. I thought it was thier job, so that you would not be in a state of confusion. :eek:
 
JimO, I’m not sure what the church’s stance on this new movement is. I’ve seen one or two passing reference to the movement, but no official doctrine on it. I do know the Vatican takes a vary cautious approach to miraculous claims so I wouldn’t expect much as it’s a fairly new movement.

SPOKENWORD, I haven’t forgotten about you. I find it difficult to talk to your kind without getting upset and even angry. It’s kind of like ex-smokers, they are the worst when it comes to other smokers. Well, as an ex-fundamentalist I have difficulty responding without malice. The lack of knowledge of history, the taking verses out of context and many of the other fundie actions set me off. So if my response seems harsh to you, please don’t take it personally. After all, my momma is a fundie and I still love her, but it doesn’t mean I won’t point out errors when I hear them.
 
Vitus said:
JimO, I’m not sure what the church’s stance on this new movement is. I’ve seen one or two passing reference to the movement, but no official doctrine on it. I do know the Vatican takes a vary cautious approach to miraculous claims so I wouldn’t expect much as it’s a fairly new movement.

SPOKENWORD, I haven’t forgotten about you. I find it difficult to talk to your kind without getting upset and even angry. It’s kind of like ex-smokers, they are the worst when it comes to other smokers. Well, as an ex-fundamentalist I have difficulty responding without malice. The lack of knowledge of history, the taking verses out of context and many of the other fundie actions set me off. So if my response seems harsh to you, please don’t take it personally. After all, my momma is a fundie and I still love her, but it doesn’t mean I won’t point out errors when I hear them.

Vitas, I understand how you feel. I agree, I dislike people who through the lack of knowledge take verses out of context. So I guess we will continue to point them out praise God. 👍
 
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Vitus:
Not to insult your mother or what happened, but sometimes people here what they want (or need) to hear, especially when in a highly emotional state.
I guess you’d just have to know her. She is a very gentle, quiet woman. Trust me when I say that I’ve seen her in a highly emotional state… I’m often the cause of it! 😉 But outside of our home, she is chronically considerate of the people around her… and very very thoughtful about everything she does and experiences. I agree that sometimes people hear what they want/need to hear, and I agree that it is possible that this was the case with her, as “anything is possible”. Just know that I’m already aware of mistakes like this, and in light of all that, the evidence shown me tells me this is not the case. I have studied psychology before, and a huge priority in my life is to discern accurate communications between individuals; I believe that confusion/misunderstanding is a huge cause of today’s problems.
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Vitus:
But it happened without a known translator, correct?
Apparently the HS chose her as the interpreter. Either that or she overheard the person’s personal prayer.
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Vitus:
So these tongues were being spoken without someone known to speak the language, it just so happened that your mom recognized it?
Yup. Ultimately it conformed to the 1 Corinthians verses, through “random chance”. Gee what a scary thought. (Just like Atheists say evolution is “random chance” and Christians say it is the guiding hand of God who works in all things)
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Vitus:
Why was this person speaking then (against 1 Corinthians)? And how exactly did it benefit the church, as tongues was a sign for unbelievers, not believers like your mother and the tongue speaker?
Well since I don’t know exactly who the person was, I don’t know the specifics of “afterwards”, but can you not imagine how the words of the Holy Spirit would be a sign for unbelievers? You’re pretty good at imagining psychological alternatives to “revelation”, so I would have expected you could imagine the reaction of unbelievers when they get confirmation from an extra-biblical source that the Lord’s Prayer, uh, exists.

(PS- don’t worry about accidentally “insulting my mother”, i brought a personal experience into this forum, which means i don’t mind discussing it and analyzing it in detail. pursuing truth is so much more important)
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Beng, Oh I see, you like to pick and chose. I thought it was thier job, so that you would not be in a state of confusion. :eek:
Here’s a list for you to do.

Give another interpretation when the Bible said:
  1. Do not steal
  2. Do not kill
  3. 1Cor 14:27-28
Please, you need alot of prayer. You are so blinded by your fake tongues.
 
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