Poll regarding "Are Charismatics truly Catholic?"

[newcrusader92]

justinw:

Are you of the school of thought that some ideas and concepts are so dangerous that you should never read from a biased viewpoint of it? Or will you consider the words of any rational human being? I understand and can accept either viewpoint. But if you are the type of person who would look at both sides of the argument, from people historically heavily involved in the movement, you might consider perusing through a book by Kevin Ranaghan… he and his wife were among the Dusquene University faculty involved in the roots of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. His book documents the initial growth of the movement. Catholic Pentecostals. If this is a topic that is causing you lots of concern, as it is me, it may be worth the very few bucks you can get it for on Amazon. I can honestly tell you that I personally am researching the Catholic refutations of this movement. I’m keeping my mind open. I know that I personally am biased towards it, because I grew up in the community that Kevin helped found, the People of Praise. It seems that you may be biased against it, like you’ve had some bad experiences of it.

Did Ranaghan not go to protestants to receive the so-called “baptism of the spirit”? It is not permitted for Catholics to go outside the Church to receive sacraments (even if they are false sacraments). Before Vatican II this kind of act would have immediately been denounced as heresy (or at least suspect of it), and it should be looked upon as such today.

The “charismatic renewal” is founded on heresy, therefore it could never be from God nor inspired by Him.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

BENG,Where did you recieve this gift of discernment that tell you that the gift of tongues is fake in 99% of you experiences. Its like me saying that 99% of catholics are not christians. You are making a judgement that is not correct. I understand how you feel about this gift and its not for you because you dont want it.We as christians walk by faith and not by sight. This gift is scriptual and the Lord gives it to those whom he wishes. It is a gift that brings us into the spiritual realm, one that you do not understand or wish to understand. I praise God for this gift. This gift that I hold brings me into a prayer language with God that only He and the Holy Spirit understands. It is important because this gift is necessary to do battle against satan. Remember I am talking about a spiritual realm.It also allows my spirit to pray when I dont know how. Are there abuses? Of course, but in honesty in all of my experiences in the charismatic movement of [19 years] I have never come across any abuses in this movement. To continue on your mission of trying to expose something that is not true is only causing grief to the Holy Spirit. Seriously, and earnestly,and prayfully seek God on this topic and ask Him to give you the wisdom that you so much need. Truth will always win out. God Bless.

 

[justinw]

newcrusader92:

Did Ranaghan not go to protestants to receive the so-called “baptism of the spirit”? It is not permitted for Catholics to go outside the Church to receive sacraments (even if they are false sacraments). Before Vatican II this kind of act would have immediately been denounced as heresy (or at least suspect of it), and it should be looked upon as such today.

The “charismatic renewal” is founded on heresy, therefore it could never be from God nor inspired by Him.

He did go to the protestants…

My wife, two colleagues and I walked cautiously into a “pure suburbia” home and were immediately struck by the warmth of the people there. It was like a family gathering, and we belonged. I remember that they sang four or five traditional mainline Protestant Sunday-school type hymns to open the meeting. A lengthy spontaneous prayer session followed. There was one person leading out at a time, and while it was certainly not babble there was an undertone of voices, and a little praying in tongues. This, too, was done quite softly and unobtrusively.

… and eventually he did receive the so-called “baptism of spirit”. However, you made 2 jumps from there. 1) What he received did not replace the sacraments, or even rank up there with them. Of what I’ve read so far, he does not consider baptism in the Holy Spirit another one of the sacred, mysterious, sacraments that the we receive through the Church. 2) “Before Vatican II this kind of act would have immediately…” Sorry, I need to read more about the various regrets that many Catholics have regarding where exactly Vatican II went, but as far as I know, the RCC considers Vatican II to have been a good thing… am I wrong? But an answer to that is probably beyond the scope of this thread… I’ll look to the appropriate area in the forums. I just don’t understand how “before Vatican II, etc…” can be the basis for a line of reasoning.

 

[justinw]

SPOKENWORD:

BENG,Where did you recieve this gift of discernment that tell you that the gift of tongues is fake in 99% of you experiences. Its like me saying that 99% of catholics are not christians.
…
Of course, but in honesty in all of my experiences in the charismatic movement of (19 years) I have never come across any abuses in this movement. To continue on your mission of trying to expose something that is not true is only causing grief to the Holy Spirit. Seriously, and earnestly,and prayfully seek God on this topic and ask Him to give you the wisdom that you so much need. Truth will always win out. God Bless.

BENG:

I would dare say that 99% of tongues out there are fake.
…
Arbitrary number I used to convey that almost all tongues in Charismatic and even more so in Protestant Pentacostalism are fake. I have been to numerous charismatic prayer meetings and group.

Guys, I think we have to realize that personal experiences affect both your understanding of, and therefore opinion of, the Charismatic movement. Whatever it is. I think we have to realize that because the RCC hasn’t yet formally defined this movement, we’re all sitting here arguing for or against what WE see in it, when we can’t even agree on the overall picture of what it is.

For instance, spokenword just said he has been involved for 19 years… is that 19 years of the same types of prayer meetings that beng has been to, or 19 years of some type of community which is very cautious in what it allows to happen? Are the numerous charismatic prayer meetings that beng has been to characteristic of the Charismatic movement? Maybe we really should be very cautious with this topic, and eagerly await some guidance from the teaching authority that we’ve accepted into our lives, the Magisterium.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

BENG,Where did you recieve this gift of discernment that tell you that the gift of tongues is fake in 99% of you experiences.

Observation and the fact that I’ve never heard tongue interpreter amongst Charismatic circles. And I have quite a bit of Charismatic, and still now. Must convert them.

Its like me saying that 99% of catholics are not christians.

Then that would be not true

You are making a judgement that is not correct.

It’s aproximate.

I understand how you feel about this gift and its not for you because you dont want it.

I’m open to tongue according to 1cor 14 and that would include verse 27 and 28.

We as christians walk by faith and not by sight.

Where’s your faith in the Bible?

This gift is scriptual and the Lord gives it to those whom he wishes.

Wait a minute? What a breach of Charismatic credo!! I thoguht “all of us receive it, we just need to activate it”

But anyway, of course He gives it to those He wishes, especially He would give it according to the Bible.

It is a gift that brings us into the spiritual realm, one that you do not understand or wish to understand.

I do not understand?

Just because you speak tongue that maybe are fake? (You do speak tongue in front of believers without interpretation right? That would be fake)

I praise God for this gift.

Pray to good for the authencity of the gift while reading 1cor 14 emphasizing on verse 27-28.

Would you do that?

This gift that I hold brings me into a prayer language with God that only He and the Holy Spirit understands.

Really?

Would it surprise you to know that even the Devil understand the higher version of tongues?

As I said there are two type of tongues. The one during Pentacost where people of any language can hear and the one at Corrinth. The Devil could speak and hear ANY languages as proven by authentic excorcism stories (Begone Satan and Evidence of Satan in the Modern World)

It is important because this gift is necessary to do battle against satan.

Umm, how?

Remember I am talking about a spiritual realm.

Ahh we commoners who can’t speak tongue do not grasp spiritual realm.

Spiritual is a higher plane only accessable through tongue.

Typical Charismatic set of mind.

I shall enlighten people of this.

It also allows my spirit to pray when I dont know how.

Fr William Most - Error in Charismatics

… Finding New Life in the Spirit (Servant,1872) has sold 1,690,000 copies. It is a guidebook given to all participants in Life in the Spirit Seminars, developed by the Word of God Community out of Ann Arbor, Michigan. Candidates are taught how to invite the gift of tongues, to make a buildup for it – St. Teresa, as we said above, would worry that the door is left more than a little ajar. This is open to satan and/or autosuggestion. On p.25 the candidate is told to say: “I ask you to baptize me in the Holy Spirit and give me the gift of tongues.” …

Are there abuses? Of course, but in honesty in all of my experiences in the charismatic movement of [19 years] I have never come across any abuses in this movement.

Whenver there are tongues spoken within believers when there are no interpretation then it is an abuse.

From your 19 years of experince, how many of this has happened?

To continue on your mission of trying to expose something that is not true is only causing grief to the Holy Spirit.

What are you talking about?

I’m doing exactly as what St Paul in the Bible said!!

Now, I’m questioning your spirit because you rpohibit me from doing a very important thing to the faith.

Seriously, and earnestly,and prayfully seek God on this topic and ask Him to give you the wisdom that you so much need. Truth will always win out. God Bless.

I would have to say the same word to you.

Read 1 Cor 14:27-28 and OPEN YOUR EYES!

 

[beng]

justinw:

Guys, I think we have to realize that personal experiences affect both your understanding of, and therefore opinion of, the Charismatic movement. Whatever it is. I think we have to realize that because the RCC hasn’t yet formally defined this movement, we’re all sitting here arguing for or against what WE see in it, when we can’t even agree on the overall picture of what it is.

For instance, spokenword just said he has been involved for 19 years… is that 19 years of the same types of prayer meetings that beng has been to, or 19 years of some type of community which is very cautious in what it allows to happen? Are the numerous charismatic prayer meetings that beng has been to characteristic of the Charismatic movement? Maybe we really should be very cautious with this topic, and eagerly await some guidance from the teaching authority that we’ve accepted into our lives, the Magisterium.

I challange him to HONESTLY AND SINCERELY to check again in his 19 years experinece.

How many percentage during his 19 years of experince tongues are spoken infront of believers without interpretation.

 

[justinw]

beng:

You do speak tongue in front of believers without interpretation right? That would be fake.

Whenver there are tongues spoken within believers when there are no interpretation then it is an abuse.

From your 19 years of experince, how many of this has happened?

Fake. Abuse. That’s getting pretty instigatory… I’m not sure that Paul would have used that wording (if he spoke in English)…

But if there is no one to interpret, let them be silent in church and speak to themselves and to God

… Sounds like he would have just walked up to the person and said “Hey buddy, pipe down will ya? You’re praying a personal prayer, we don’t wanna hear it! That’s only for God’s ears. So just keep it to yourself please.”

“Fake”? I can understand if somebody is really just consciously forming gibberish with their mouths. I’d call that faking. But praying out loud when you should just keep it to yourself?? That makes it fake? Sounds like a pretty costly mistake for whoever is doing it. Just “let them be silent … and speak to themselves and God”

*… sigh why can’t we just try to understand one another first?.. *

 

[SPOKENWORD]

BENG, Once again I see you are not open to the gift of tongues as you claim,for you are only decieving your self. You have to have the desire to recieve for God doesnt force anything on us. I would like to know where you got the idea that satan understands the language of the Holy Spirit? You really dont know what you are talking about. Yes satan does understand ALL EARTHLY LANGUAGES. I do know satan flees when he is spoken to in tongues. It is a weapon the Lord equips us with. Listen I dont claim to understand every everything,but thats where trust and faith comes in. God is in control, if we only allow Him to and surrender. There is power in this gift and God desires that we all recieve it . We just have to be open to recieve it. God Bless.

 

[newcrusader92]

justinw:

… and eventually he did receive the so-called “baptism of spirit”. However, you made 2 jumps from there. 1) What he received did not replace the sacraments, or even rank up there with them. Of what I’ve read so far, he does not consider baptism in the Holy Spirit another one of the sacred, mysterious, sacraments that the we receive through the Church. 2) “Before Vatican II this kind of act would have immediately…” Sorry, I need to read more about the various regrets that many Catholics have regarding where exactly Vatican II went, but as far as I know, the RCC considers Vatican II to have been a good thing… am I wrong? But an answer to that is probably beyond the scope of this thread… I’ll look to the appropriate area in the forums. I just don’t understand how “before Vatican II, etc…” can be the basis for a line of reasoning.

Well, what I can say is that after Vatican II this need for false ecumenism has been promoted so much, but not criticized. Even the Vatican is behind it (example: Assisi prayer session 2002). The Church has always condemned public worship together with heretics. It is one thing for a heretic to attend Mass (not a problem, that’s true ecumenism at work), but it’s a totally different thing to pray at a service run by heretics or allow them to pray their way at a Catholic Shrine. If it was always wrong to do such things yesterday, it still is today. Even the First Commandment is still in force today. It would not be right for Ranaghan to go to a protestant for “baptism of the spirit” because it gives credibility to a false religion.

 

[Carrie_Andrews]

GAK, what a question! I’m not easily offended(IMHO) but this question truely strikes me as a smack in the face. It’s like other Christians asking "Are Catholics really Christians? I’m not a Charismatic myself, my Mother has been for 25 years and leads a charismatic prayer group. Her faith is beautiful and she follows and loves the pope. To the best of my knowledge shes the least heritical person I’ve ever known.

 

[Carrie_Andrews]

dcs:

AFAICT Charismatics are Catholic, but Charismaticism is not Catholicism.

We recently had our home blessed by a priest who is associated with the Charismatic movement (we like him anyway ). He related a story about a Charismatic retreat at Steubenville, I believe, where some participants were receiving the “gift” of “holy laughter.” Anyway, one girl laughed continuously for two hours and couldn’t stop no matter what they did. They eventually came to the conclusion that she was being influenced by a malicious spirit. Now, I think “malicious spirit” is a euphemism for a demon, since neither the angels nor Holy Souls are malicious. So why would you want to be involved with something that leaves you open to diabolical influences? Doesn’t this anecdote cast doubt on the whole business of “holy laughter” and, indeed, Charismaticism itself?

There was a nun visiting the Vatican who went into a demonic fit(laying on the floor, spitting out glass, etc.) not too long ago(I know JP2 spoke with her after the incident) so lets not say that just because a malicious spirit showed up a a Charismatic meeting that the Charismatics leave you open to diabolical influences please.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

BENG, Once again I see you are not open to the gift of tongues as you claim,for you are only decieving your self.

How am I deceiving myself?

You have to have the desire to recieve for God doesnt force anything on us.

And you do know that sometime God doesn’t give what’s not necessary even if you ask?

I would like to know where you got the idea that satan understands the language of the Holy Spirit? You really dont know what you are talking about. Yes satan does understand ALL EARTHLY LANGUAGES. I do know satan flees when he is spoken to in tongues.

Cite me.

Satan was a spirit. He was of Angels. He still retain his power.

It is a weapon the Lord equips us with.

Cite me.

Listen I dont claim to understand every everything,but thats where trust and faith comes in. God is in control, if we only allow Him to and surrender.

… Finding New Life in the Spirit (Servant,1872) has sold 1,690,000 copies. It is a guidebook given to all participants in Life in the Spirit Seminars, developed by the Word of God Community out of Ann Arbor, Michigan. Candidates are taught how to invite the gift of tongues, to make a buildup for it – St. Teresa, as we said above, would worry that the door is left more than a little ajar. This is open to satan and/or autosuggestion. On p.25 the candidate is told to say: “I ask you to baptize me in the Holy Spirit and give me the gift of tongues.” …

There is power in this gift and God desires that we all recieve it .

No verse to support this. (in 1cor 14:5 Paul spoke rhetorically)

We just have to be open to recieve it. God Bless.

Ah, the Charismatic slogan.

I thought, per your words, "This gift is scriptual and the Lord gives it to those whom he wishes."?

 

[Vitus]

Where is the historical church teaching on tongues? Why is it that these charims (especially tongues) have only manifested themselves in the last 100 years (40 years in Catholicism), being absent from church history? Why has all research on glossaholia shown that it resembles nothing like an actual language? Why is the notion of “personal prayer language” absent throughout church history?

 

[Vitus]

SPOKENWORD, from reading your posts, you are obviously not Catholic. In fact, I’d wager that you are a fundamentalist, and a new age fundamentalist at that. Your talk of the armor of God, spiritual warfare, calling demons and loosing angels and many of your other posts give you away.

Why would I mention this? Because I’ve been there. I’ve taught it. I’ve been to revivals, laid hands on people, spoken in “tongues” over them, been “slain in the spirit”, prophecied and given words of knowledge. I’ve been there. And as hard as it is for you to wrap your mind around, it’s not right. It’s not historical supported in church teachings, it’s not biblically supported when taken in context. It may “feel right” but that doesn’t make it so.

Good intentions under the pretense of bad exegesis still takes root in error.

 

[JimO]

Beng,

I’ve been following this thread for several days but haven’t commented yet. Boy! Tell us how you really feel! I was part of a charismatic prayer group a number of years ago and saw a lot of people in that movement. I never left the Church and attended a weekly prayer group meeting as a supplement to Mass and the sacraments, not in place of them.

Yes, there were abuses and misunderstandings and yes, there were people who left the Church and went to Charismatic Protestant churches. I wasn’t always comfortable with everything I saw and didn’t feel that certain gifts were for me. However, there are also many, like myself, who gained a deeper faith through the experience.

Early on the Catholic Charismatic renewal moved away from orthodox Catholicism, which was disturbing. However, as time went on many of those who took it in that direction left (they were probably on their way out anyway). Those who have remained committed to the Renewal, I have found, are much more orthodox.

Speaking for myself, through the Renewal, I grew in my understanding of what Christ did for me personally, I studied Scripture far more than I otherwise would have, I became much more willing and comfortable with praying with others, I learned the value of intercessory prayer, and I came to appreciate praise and worship through song (not in the context of Mass, but as a separate worship experience - some feel that the Mass is not the place for that type of praise and worship and I tend to agree).

Some in the Renewal will disagree with me in this, but I definately don’t think that it is for everyone, just like contemplative prayer isn’t for everyone and Gregorian chant isn’t for everyone. That is why the Church is so great. There is room in the Church for many types of spirituality. Another area where folks might disagree with me is - I believe that for some, the Renewal is a step in their faith walk that one moves through and beyond. That is what has happened to me. I grew spiritually during my time in the prayer group, made many lasting friendships, came to appreciate Scripture and prayer more deeply, but then I moved on.

My point is that we shouldn’t be so quick to paint with such a broad brush. The Charismatic renewal, like every other aspect of the Church’s life, isn’t perfect. But, a great many people have grown closer to the Lord through it. Yes, some have drifted, but I’d argue that those who left the Church “because of the Renewal” were probably looking for a reason to leave the Church.

 

[beng]

JimO:

Beng,

My point is that we shouldn’t be so quick to paint with such a broad brush. The Charismatic renewal, like every other aspect of the Church’s life, isn’t perfect. But, a great many people have grown closer to the Lord through it. Yes, some have drifted, but I’d argue that those who left the Church “because of the Renewal” were probably looking for a reason to leave the Church.

It doesn’t matter how broad the brush is.

As long as there are tongues amongst believers with no interpretation, then it’s an abuse and troubling.

If you wanna saty loyal to the Church who teach Bible inerrancy, then you have to stay away from such practice.

 

[JimO]

“If you wanna saty loyal to the Church who teach Bible inerrancy, then you have to stay away from such practice.”

Hmmm. Show me where the Catholic Church denounces prayer tongues, healing prayer, praise and worship song or any other of the common practices of the charismatics who are faithful to the Church’s teaching.

You are expressing an opinion and an interpretation of Scripture that is not in agreement with Church teaching. You obviously have a personal bias/distaste for these practices that you want to characterize as wrong.

If you show me where the Church officially denounces these practices, I will stand corrected. Otherwise, you don’t have to become a charismatic, but don’t pass judgement based on personal bias.

Jim

 

[beng]

“If you wanna saty loyal to the Church who teach Bible inerrancy, then you have to stay away from such practice.”

Hmmm. Show me where the Catholic Church denounces prayer tongues, healing prayer, praise and worship song or any other of the common practices of the charismatics who are faithful to the Church’s teaching.

You are expressing an opinion and an interpretation of Scripture that is not in agreement with Church teaching. You obviously have a personal bias/distaste for these practices that you want to characterize as wrong.

If you show me where the Church officially denounces these practices, I will stand corrected. Otherwise, you don’t have to become a charismatic, but don’t pass judgement based on personal bias.

Jim

Here’s how it works

1. The Church define infallibly on Bible innerancy
2. 1 Cor 14:27-28 is part of the Bible
3. ergo 1 cor 14:27-28 is infallible

Please give me another interpretation of 1Cor 14:27-28.

 

[JimO]

I’ll have to do a little research, but I will try to pass on a reference indicating where the Church stands on this issue; however, your response is no response at all. You are relying on your personal interpretation of I Cor 14:27-28, not what the Church’s interpretation is regarding the gift of tongues. You have to examine the entire text and put it into context. Our personal ability to do this correctly is greatly limited - hence the problem with Protestantism.

Your logic, I’m afraid is flawed.

“1. The Church define infallibly on Bible innerancy”
True.
“2. 1 Cor 14:27-28 is part of the Bible”
Obvious. Then the leap!
“3. ergo 1 cor 14:27-28 is infallible”
True, but only in its correct interpretation and context!

By stating through this train of logic that by using prayer tongues one is exhibiting disloyalty to the Church and its teachings, you are elevating your personal understanding of two verses of Scripture to the level of infallibility.

The Protestants use the same logic to insist that we are saved by faith alone by taking isolated passages like Romans 5:1 out of context.

Read I Cor 14:2 as an isolated verse. It gives the opposite impression of verses 27-28.

Now read the last part of verse 28 “…each one speaking only to himself and God.” This says clearly that if there is nobody present with the gift of interpretation, each one should speak to himself and to God. In context, it suggests that speaking in tongues is not prohibited, only that speaking tongues aloud without an interpretor is out of order. One is not prohibited from using a personal prayer tongue, or “praying in the spirit” (go back to verse 14).

I will find the reference.

 

[justinw]

Vitus:

Where is the historical church teaching on tongues? Why is it that these charims (especially tongues) have only manifested themselves in the last 100 years (40 years in Catholicism), being absent from church history? Why has all research on glossaholia shown that it resembles nothing like an actual language? Why is the notion of “personal prayer language” absent throughout church history?

With all this serious talk, I have a little story about the gift of tongues. I’m sure there are many like this, and sometimes they get lost in the shuffle of criticism and fear of abuse.

My Mom was born into Judaism and was raised a Jew as she grew up. She is now Catholic, but one of results of her being raised the way she was, is that she is fluent in Hebrew. What an awesome heritage! She now calls herself a “completed” Jew, a.k.a., a Christian. I’m kinda proud to be her firstborn son.

She and my Dad have been involved in a %between%Christian Charismatic Covenant community for the majority of their adult lives. They have a weekly prayer meeting of the whole community, and smaller prayer groups of a few men or a few women. Additionally, they each ask somebody who is spiritually more mature than themselves to form a spiritual director relationship with them for accountability. Everybody agrees to this when they join, no matter how “mature” they are.

At one of their meetings, where tongues are not an uncommon occurrence, Mom heard something she recognized, but had not heard in years. She looked around to figure out who it was, and was shocked. What she was hearing was the Lord’s Prayer, except in Hebrew! She was sure that this person had no experience with that language, and she even confirmed it with the person. The person was simply experiencing the gift of tongues, and could only understand that the Holy Spirit was speaking through him. Wow! Mom also felt blessed to be the interpreter.