Poll regarding "Are Charismatics truly Catholic?"

[justinw]

Buckeyejoe:

I was a charismatic for many years, in some ways I still am,

Just curious, in what ways are you still and what ways aren’t you?

 

[newcrusader92]

donadei:

Hi, Beng,

Of course, charismatics are very catholic. I am one. Since I’ve become a member of Couples for Christ, I learned how to read the Bible. (I actually started this year the Book of Genesis and currently, I am doing the Book of Job.)

I’ve learned the Eucharist is the center of my life, and I am trying to live it. I signed up for adoration in my parish one hour every week. Reconciliation is of utmost importance, because I can’t receive Jesus if I am sinful.

I learned to volunteer for service in the community.

Most of all, my family started to pray the Rosary almost daily at night. My youngest, a 4-year old girl, is picking up the habit fast.

My family realized how important it is to live our faith. Faith without works is dead. So we try to support noteworthy Catholi causes.

Oh, I could go on and on and tell you all the good things that have been happening to my family lately.

We’re in love with the LORD.

Thanks to the charismatic movement.

At the same time, we’re praying that we remain steadfast in God’s grace. Without Him, everyhting is bound to fail.

Besides, we believe that the charismatic movement is anchored on God the Holy Spirit.

All praise, honor, glory and thanksgiving be unto the LORD forever and ever. Amen.

Hello. I used to be a part of Singles for Christ, which if I’m not mistaken is part of the same group.

I am convinced that God can make something good out of a bad situation. Had I not been involved in SFC, I would not have had the interest in finding out the truth about Catholicism. Everything would have been routine, without meaning to me.

But that is not to say I can endorse “charismatic renewal”. I can not.

A great part of this has to do with the approach to prayer and faith. In the chapter I was in, there was more or less lip service to the Rosary (and any Marian devotion) - we could talk about it, amongst ourselves, but we couldn’t make announcements during assembly, for example, for fear of “offending” non-Catholics. And we know that St. Dominic brought heretics to conversion with the Rosary.

There are inconsistencies with what they teach and do. So much is made of St. Paul’s epistles. But women are supposed to cover their heads when praying - that is never done in assembly.

Most importantly, the so-called “renewal” is based on protestant practices, such as “baptism of the spirit” and “casting out and binding of demons”. . . as well as public prayer in common with non-Catholics. No Catholic before Vatican II would’ve support any of that.

I will say that true Marian devotion while being a member of such groups will eventually cause those people to leave. I met a couple of people back then who told me about the Brown Scapular, so I went to find one myself and started doing what was required to the best of my ability. Months later, I started finding out the truth on changes in the Mass, the teachings of Vatican II, among other things. I have now gone to a [traditional] Mass for almost two years now, and left SFC in 2003. Many thanks to Our Lady for her help.

I would like to recommend reading articles about “charismatic renewal” at unitypublishing.com as well as a book called Close-ups of the Charismatic Movement by John Vennari - the book and the articles show the pitfalls of this protestant style of worship.

 

[beng]

justinw:

Ok… If you want to be reactive instead of proactive, (explaining what we can’t do instead of what we ought to be doing) what about if there is an interpreter?

If there’s an interpreter, then fine. Share the interpretation with us. Then we’ll try to get some more people with interpratation gifts and then confirm it.

At the “Festival of Praise” that the Franciscan University of Steubenville has about once/month, occasionally they will allow 2 people to come up to the microphone, and one will speak their “tongue” directly into the mike, and then the second person will interpret.

Still need confirmation. Probably both are just fooling themselves. It’s possible

What about earlier in that chapter? 14:1-5, but particularly verse 2:

How often, when you are praying in Church, are you praying directly to God? The above verse would suggest that every time you are doing that, tongues are “acceptable”.

If you can’t interpret it, then keep silence. Pray to God alone in your solitude.

Lastly, I have never “received” the “gift of tongues”. I don’t use that as an indicator of a person’s faith life. One is not better or worse for praying in tongues. What I do know is that many people have told me that when they are praying in tongues, they strongly feel at that moment like the Spirit is guiding them in their words, and that they are being more accurate than they could ever hope to be by themselves.

They feel

Feeling =/= faith.

Evangelical/pentacostal Protestant is an emotion based religion.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

My people will perish for the lack of knowledge,says the Lord.

What lack of knowledge? Instead I gave biblical knowledge to those in errors

 

[beng]

Buckeyejoe:

I was a charismatic for many years, in some ways I still am, Can I speak in tongues?..You bet! Are Charismatics Cathoilics?..To me their the top of the line Catholics!

Interpret your tongue to me.

And tell me whether you use your tongue amongst believer. If you do, then you are fooling yourselves. That is not tongues.

 

[justinw]

beng:

If there’s an interpreter, then fine. Share the interpretation with us. Then we’ll try to get some more people with interpratation gifts and then confirm it.

I feel like we’re really going the “biblical literalist” route here. Well so be it. Where does it mention a need for a “confirmer”? It seems that anyone who appears to have the gift of tongues has just come under suspicion, and an interpreter is probably just an accomplice, or sorely mistaken.

beng:

Still need confirmation. Probably both are just fooling themselves. It’s possible

I agree, this is definitely possible. Do you then agree that it is entirely possible that somebody has in fact received the gift of tongues, and that an interpreter has stepped forward to share the words with the congregation?

beng:

They feel

Feeling =/= faith.

Evangelical/pentacostal Protestant is an emotion based religion.

I agree that Pentecostal Protestantism is an emotion-based religion. However, I mentioned above that I find much truth in these charisms from within Catholicism.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Buckeyejoe:

I was a charismatic for many years, in some ways I still am, Can I speak in tongues?..You bet! Are Charismatics Cathoilics?..To me their the top of the line Catholics!

bUCKEYEJOE,I have to agree with you,charismatics are the fillet mignon of the rcc body.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

beng:

What lack of knowledge? Instead I gave biblical knowledge to those in errors

Do I need to say anymore?

 

[pnewton]

The top of the line, filet mignon Catholic would never claim to be number one. The greatest is the least.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

pnewton:

The top of the line, filet mignon Catholic would never claim to be number one. The greatest is the least.

Your right they would not claim to be number one because they are very humble people. It is I who say they are the very best.

 

[beng]

justinw:

I feel like we’re really going the “biblical literalist” route here. Well so be it. Where does it mention a need for a “confirmer”? It seems that anyone who appears to have the gift of tongues has just come under suspicion, and an interpreter is probably just an accomplice, or sorely mistaken.

A confirmer is necessary for practical purpose that the person, lies.

This is in conjunction with “test the spirit” verse on 1John 4:1

I agree, this is definitely possible. Do you then agree that it is entirely possible that somebody has in fact received the gift of tongues, and that an interpreter has stepped forward to share the words with the congregation?

I do not deny that there’s real tongue. However 99% of tongues out there are fake.

I agree that Pentecostal Protestantism is an emotion-based religion. However, I mentioned above that I find much truth in these charisms from within Catholicism.

God can make the good out of the bad (Solomon was born out of sin). But this doesn’t mean that we should do bad. (Rom 3:8, read whole chapter)

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

Do I need to say anymore?

Say more slander? I don’t think you should.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

beng:

Say more slander? I don’t think you should.

Beng. Are you here to learn? Or you so full of pride that you will not let the Holy Spirit show you the Truth about tongues. Are you here just to cause strife. The Lord said there would be people like you. You need to do some serious repenting before God with the attitude you have. Confusion is not of the Lord. Ill keep you in my prayers anyways. God Bless.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

Beng. Are you here to learn? Or you so full of pride that you will not let the Holy Spirit show you the Truth about tongues.

Do you believe that the Bible is inspired by God? And when the Popes INFALLIBLY defined the innerancy of the Bible (Providentimus Deus, Divino Afflante Spiritu, Humani Generis, Dei Verbum) it’s protected by the Holy Spirit from Error?

Then why are you going against 1Cor 14:27-28?

Are you here just to cause strife.

No. I’m here to tell people about the fakeness of toungue according to waht the Bible said.

The Lord said there would be people like you.

People like me? Those who hold Bible very dearly? Those who correct false teaching using the Bible (2Tim 3:16)?

You need to do some serious repenting before God with the attitude you have.

Repent because I show the errors of Charismatics?

Confusion is not of the Lord.

Yes. And that is why we need to obliterate fake tongue.

Ill keep you in my prayers anyways. God Bless.

Thank you. Pray for the end of fake tongues too. Would you do that?

 

[James_2_24]

This whole Charismatic tongues thing… It’s so out there and so “off” that I think its a joke that its even up for debate. It’s errors are so blantantly evident. Any ex-Charismatic Catholic or non-Catholic will tell you this. History will tell you this… Scripture will tell you this…

I mean this with the most respect possible, but Spokenwords various comments over the last month or so on Charismatics and speaking in tongues smack of the arrogance and spiritual elitism of this movement. The kind of stuff I run into a lot since I have been around Charismatics – Catholic and otherwise for a few years now.

You will be amazed at the numbers of them that leave the movement after awhile and will be the first ones to point out its flaws. Montanism revisited and problably worse.

God Bless

p.s. are Tridentines and Orthodox not “spirit-filled” and open to the spirit? You would never see this happening in these communities. One Orthodox Priest dabbled in Charismaticism here in the U.S. his name is Fr. Archimandrite Eusebius Stephanou. He started to bring this stuff in and was basically silenced by the Bishops and sent to Florida because no Bishop would allow him in their Diocese. He is forbidden from travelling around. Because he was introducing heresy to the ancient Orthodox Faith. We need a little spine in our Bishops as well

 

[justinw]

beng:

Pray for the end of fake tongues too. Would you do that?

I will do that, I already do. There’s so much confusion and division… though it’s a beautiful thing to have so many different people, with different experiences, different cultures, get committed to living for the glory of God, it can often be frustrating and an elusive goal, for us to find real truth. I know there are a lot of people out there confused about how their experiences compare to those of others. Heck, we’re all confused in some way. Praise God that we can pray together and nourish one another through open, receptive dialogue!

beng:

I do not deny that there’s real tongue. However 99% of tongues out there are fake.

Where did you get this statistic?

Are you of the school of thought that some ideas and concepts are so dangerous that you should never read from a biased viewpoint of it? Or will you consider the words of any rational human being? I understand and can accept either viewpoint. But if you are the type of person who would look at both sides of the argument, from people historically heavily involved in the movement, you might consider perusing through a book by Kevin Ranaghan… he and his wife were among the Dusquene University faculty involved in the roots of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. His book documents the initial growth of the movement. Catholic Pentecostals. If this is a topic that is causing you lots of concern, as it is me, it may be worth the very few bucks you can get it for on Amazon. I can honestly tell you that I personally am researching the Catholic refutations of this movement. I’m keeping my mind open. I know that I personally am biased towards it, because I grew up in the community that Kevin helped found, the People of Praise. It seems that you may be biased against it, like you’ve had some bad experiences of it.

 

[justinw]

James_2:24:

It’s errors are so blantantly evident. Any ex-Charismatic Catholic or non-Catholic will tell you this.

This is news? Any ex-Catholic will tell you that Catholicisms errors are so blatantly evident. Any Democrat will tell you that Republicans’ errors are so blatantly evident. etc…
James_2:24:

I mean this with the most respect possible, but Spokenwords various comments over the last month or so on Charismatics and speaking in tongues smack of the arrogance and spiritual elitism of this movement. The kind of stuff I run into a lot since I have been around Charismatics – Catholic and otherwise for a few years now.

You will be amazed at the numbers of them that leave the movement after awhile and will be the first ones to point out its flaws. Montanism revisited and problably worse.

Be careful to not equate the actions of an individual with the success or failure of the movement they advocate. Just as I’m trying to reason through the Charismatic Movement, and would consider myself a Charismatic, that doesn’t make me an authority on it, nor a sufficient model of it. We as Catholics know that all too well, through all of our failures and the failures of those around us. Every school of thought will cultivate, if you are not careful, an attitude of arrogance and elitism. That’s just the antagonist that we rebuke in the name of Jesus Christ, as he tries to foster pride within us.

I know many people who have dedicated their lives to a Christian community like the one in Acts of the Apostles… which exhibits not only “charistmaticism”, but a literal commitment to the spiritual growth and maturity of it’s members. Including a limitless financial and time commitment. “Cultish” to the people who couldn’t comprehend the intimacy of Frodo and Samwise’s friendship. Most of these people have been a part of it for the majority of at least their adult life, most have been a part of it for decades. So, personally I am amazed at the Charismatic portion of this community, as only one of many signs of the Holy Spirit’s presence.

 

[beng]

justinw:

Where did you get this statistic?

Arbitrary number I used to convey that almost all tongues in Charismatic and even more so in Protestant Pentacostalism are fake. I have been to numerous charismatic prayer meetings and group. I shall enlightened this bunch and show the errors of their way.

Are you of the school of thought that some ideas and concepts are so dangerous that you should never read from a biased viewpoint of it? Or will you consider the words of any rational human being? I understand and can accept either viewpoint. But if you are the type of person who would look at both sides of the argument, from people historically heavily involved in the movement, you might consider perusing through a book by Kevin Ranaghan… he and his wife were among the Dusquene University faculty involved in the roots of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. His book documents the initial growth of the movement. Catholic Pentecostals. If this is a topic that is causing you lots of concern, as it is me, it may be worth the very few bucks you can get it for on Amazon. I can honestly tell you that I personally am researching the Catholic refutations of this movement. I’m keeping my mind open. I know that I personally am biased towards it, because I grew up in the community that Kevin helped found, the People of Praise. It seems that you may be biased against it, like you’ve had some bad experiences of it.

I’ve never had any bad experinced like being told to do it or et cetera (like some people here). However I’m concern because this fakeness is against biblical truth.

 

[justinw]

beng:

I do not deny that there’s real tongue. However 99% of tongues out there are fake.
…
Arbitrary number I used to convey that almost all tongues in Charismatic and even more so in Protestant Pentacostalism are fake. I have been to numerous charismatic prayer meetings and group. I shall enlightened this bunch and show the errors of their way.

Please be careful with your vocabulary and the way you word things, for the sake of open, clear, accurate communications. It’s the logical fallacy of equivocation for you to say that 99% of tongues out there are fake, just because 99% of the tongues you’ve been exposed to were fake. Miscommunication is SO easy… It is simple for us to write out our arguments on here, but nobody can take into account our individual experiences, because all they see are our words. i.e., somebody reading through this forum could be left with the impression that you’ve conducted a formal, objective survey of Catholic Charismatics.

beng:

I’ve never had any bad experinced like being told to do it or et cetera (like some people here). However I’m concern because this fakeness is against biblical truth.

It would be a very disconcerting experience to be told to fake the gift of tongues. Not only for the “victim”, but also for all the misunderstanding and division that it could cause among those who witnessed it or heard about it.

The “fakeness” should be fought tooth and nail. There should be NO DESIRE to take a shortcut to receiving the gift. There should be no JEALOUSY that somebody else has received it when I myself haven’t. There should be no JUDGING of a person’s character or motives, based on the (rare?) liklihood of that person actually authentically receiving the gift of tongues. What there should be is extreme and utter caution in examining past occurences and the environment of any gathering place of “where 2 or 3 are gathered in My name”. I think the reason that it should be such a personal experience and not a public one, unless interpreted, can be explained by analyzing the fakeness: when people see the gift of tongues, they want to do it. It should always be associated with personal, private prayer, or with giving a real concrete message to the congregation. Otherwise it does invite fakeness.

 

[beng]

justinw:

Please be careful with your vocabulary and the way you word things, for the sake of open, clear, accurate communications. It’s the logical fallacy of equivocation for you to say that 99% of tongues out there are fake, just because 99% of the tongues you’ve been exposed to were fake. Miscommunication is SO easy… It is simple for us to write out our arguments on here, but nobody can take into account our individual experiences, because all they see are our words. i.e., somebody reading through this forum could be left with the impression that you’ve conducted a formal, objective survey of Catholic Charismatics.

I would dare say that 99% of tongues out there are fake.

The abuse is so prevalent that I do not mind giving out 99% number.

It would be a very disconcerting experience to be told to fake the gift of tongues. Not only for the “victim”, but also for all the misunderstanding and division that it could cause among those who witnessed it or heard about it.

The “fakeness” should be fought tooth and nail. There should be NO DESIRE to take a shortcut to receiving the gift. There should be no JEALOUSY that somebody else has received it when I myself haven’t. There should be no JUDGING of a person’s character or motives, based on the (rare?) liklihood of that person actually authentically receiving the gift of tongues. What there should be is extreme and utter caution in examining past occurences and the environment of any gathering place of “where 2 or 3 are gathered in My name”. I think the reason that it should be such a personal experience and not a public one, unless interpreted, can be explained by analyzing the fakeness: when people see the gift of tongues, they want to do it. It should always be associated with personal, private prayer, or with giving a real concrete message to the congregation. Otherwise it does invite fakeness.

What you said in the above is not really the Charismatic set of mind, altough it should be.