Poll regarding "Are Charismatics truly Catholic?"

[Vitus]

1 Corinthians 14:2

For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

a.k.a. - personal
I knew you were going to quote this scripture. I’m sorry, I never bought into that this verse aludes to some kind of special personal prayer language. It’s taking this verse out of context. And the context of chapter 14 is exteremly important. Look at the other references in this chapter:

9 So with yourselves; if you in a tongue utter speech that is not intelligible, how will any one know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.

13-14 Therefore, he who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.

19 nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

22 Thus, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.

27-29 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.

No references to “personal”, in fact quite the opposite. Not for believers, for non-believers. Not for oneself, but to be intepreted. Remember, Paul was trying to weed out the truly miraculous gift of tongues from the ecstatic utterances practiced by the other religions in Corinth. This was Paul’s message to THIS church, you have to look not only why he singled out the Corinthians but what he was trying to accomplish.

I agree that there is a lot of flaky stuff out there, but when you examine something, I think we need to look beyond the implementation and at the underlying teaching of it.

Which is why I am speaking up.

 

[Katie-Scarlett]

dcs:

AFAICT Charismatics are Catholic, but Charismaticism is not Catholicism.

We recently had our home blessed by a priest who is associated with the Charismatic movement (we like him anyway ). He related a story about a Charismatic retreat at Steubenville, I believe, where some participants were receiving the “gift” of “holy laughter.” Anyway, one girl laughed continuously for two hours and couldn’t stop no matter what they did. They eventually came to the conclusion that she was being influenced by a malicious spirit. Now, I think “malicious spirit” is a euphemism for a demon, since neither the angels nor Holy Souls are malicious. So why would you want to be involved with something that leaves you open to diabolical influences? Doesn’t this anecdote cast doubt on the whole business of “holy laughter” and, indeed, Charismaticism itself?

Sounds to me like the poor girl was hysterical and needed a doctor. The main problem I see with the Charismatic movement, and why I got out of it, is there is a big confusion between having an emotional experience and a spiritual experience. Feelings are not indicators of the state of one’s soul, or the bestowal of Grace, or the presence of God (or the devil). When we start relying on subjective feelings to guide our beliefs and actions, we are getting away from the truth of Catholicism. I don’t believe the movement is bad in it’s own right, but there is more enthusiasm than knowledge, more excitement than discernment, more evangelism than careful, responsible leadership.

 

[t3502rc]

Reading through the posts on the Charasmatic movement here, I felt the need to comment even though I usually just lurk. I do not consider myself charasmatic but I attend a charasmatic parish. My experience has been so different than the opinons expressed here that it almost seems like you all are talking about something other than the charasmatic parish I know.

My parish is charasmatic and absolutely obedient to church teachings and the rubrics of the mass. Yes, some people speak in tounges and raise their hands during two parts of the mass, but permission has been granted from the local bishop for these actions.

Among those that attend my parish are well known Catholic apologists, Catholic radio hosts, many charasmatics (obviously since the parish is designated as a charasmatic parish) and ordinary people who are not charasmatic but just want the truth of our faith to be taught and lived in the parish. There also happens to be many young people who consider and enter religious life from my parish.

If the movement is to be judged by its fruits, it is hard for me to understand how the Catholicness of the charasmatics I know could ever be questioned.

 

[CatholicGeek]

t3502rc:

If the movement is to be judged by its fruits, it is hard for me to understand how the Catholicness of the charasmatics I know could ever be questioned.

I agree!

I think that it is being downplayed for a number of reasons:

1. It resembles Pentecostalism too much.
2. Bad experiences with it or people in it.
3. The “that was then, this is now” concept that God doesn’t work that way anymore.
4. Its too emotional.

None of these, IMO, is a valid argument against it, but it does impact how people view it.

I wonder how it can be so knocked when our current Pope has encouraged it. Thanks for chiming it!

God Bless

 

[Vitus]

t3502rc:

If the movement is to be judged by its fruits, it is hard for me to understand how the Catholicness of the charasmatics I know could ever be questioned.

It’s not the Catholicness I question, it’s the charismatic part. It’s not the peoples motives or intentions I question (we should all strive to become closer to God), it’s the methods and the reasonings behind it. I don’t think these people are evil or doing wrong, I just think they are misguided.

CatholicGeek:

1. It resembles Pentecostalism too much.
2. Bad experiences with it or people in it.
3. The “that was then, this is now” concept that God doesn’t work that way anymore.
4. Its too emotional.

If I mary respond to your points in order:

1. It does. It takes the core of the Pentecostal Charismatic movement (which pre-dates the Catholic Charismatic movement) which is a renewel of charims missing in church history for 1700 years and wrapping it in a Catholic package. In essence, it is throwing out tradition and relying heavily on scripture (wrongly IMO).
2. Possibly, but I can only speak with my experience within the Protestant Charismatic movement. Although my expereinces were not bad, the deeper I studied the theology behind it the more troubling it became. It’s easy to look past that because “it feels right”.
3. Why the lack of respect for tradition and church history? Does that stand for nothing? Have they reverted to Sola Scriptura? God works in whatever way he sees fit. But when movements like these take 2 chapters of one book of the Bible, ignore church history and build a new theology out of it, I think it MUST be questioned.
4. Emotion is good. There is nothing wrong with being emotional. But attributing overly emotional reactions to be the work of God can be dangerous. There is nothing wrong with focusing on what Christ has done in his life for us, and in your life with him and becoming emotional. It’s when that emotion is used on a regular basis to gain special “powers” that manifest when in that overly emotional state that it becomes troublesome.

CatholicGeek:

I wonder how it can be so knocked when our current Pope has encouraged it.

Encouraged the movement or the people within it? It’s a fine line. You don’t want to discourage people from seeking a closer relationship with God. However, this does not mean enodorsement of means to gain that relationship. That old adage of “the ends not justifying the means” still holds true.

 

[beng]

y2daddy:

What is the big obsession on the part of some people with kicking the charismatic movement into the dirt?

Too many abuses. I suggest a radical change.

 

[beng]

donadei:

Hi, Beng,

Of course, charismatics are very catholic. I am one. Since I’ve become a member of Couples for Christ, I learned how to read the Bible. (I actually started this year the Book of Genesis and currently, I am doing the Book of Job.)

I learn Bible without becoming Charismatic.

I’ve learned the Eucharist is the center of my life, and I am trying to live it. I signed up for adoration in my parish one hour every week. Reconciliation is of utmost importance, because I can’t receive Jesus if I am sinful.

Same as above.

I learned to volunteer for service in the community.

Most of all, my family started to pray the Rosary almost daily at night. My youngest, a 4-year old girl, is picking up the habit fast.

Good.

Do Rosary more than fake tongues.

My family realized how important it is to live our faith. Faith without works is dead. So we try to support noteworthy Catholi causes.

Oh, I could go on and on and tell you all the good things that have been happening to my family lately.

Me, and many people are also having many good things. Without Charismatic. Maybe even more.

We’re in love with the LORD.

Good

Thanks to the charismatic movement.

The lord can bring the good out of the bad (David’s adultery brought Solomon).

Stay away from fake tongues, Sugar coated sermon/prayer and laying of hands.

At the same time, we’re praying that we remain steadfast in God’s grace. Without Him, everyhting is bound to fail.

Good

Besides, we believe that the charismatic movement is anchored on God the Holy Spirit.

Well, Holy Spirit doesn’t encourage abuses.

All praise, honor, glory and thanksgiving be unto the LORD forever and ever. Amen.

Amen

 

[beng]

lindsays:

Hi Everyone
Im a 22 year old charismatic and i love it. It has never taken me from my Catholic faith, in fact it has helped me to appreciate it more. I love God and i love the church and serving however i can. I admit the renewal is not for everyone but the way i see it, you have to go and find a group that you are comfortable praying with. Every group has their focus eg- charismatic is a focus on getting closer to Jesus and the inviting the Holy Spirit to fill us.

Umm, you can NOT invite the Holy Spirit!

The legion of Mary is a devotion to Mary, there are groups that stem from our Church in all kinds of shapes and forms. My point is, eveyone finds their group that they can build their faith in. So long as we are not saying our own groups are “THE ONLY WAY” and we are supporting each other’s groups as a faith community and praying for each other as all good Catholics should do, then i don’t see an issue with charismatics or any other faith building group. In the end, each of these groups should come back to the climax of our faith, the eucharistic celebration at mass.

Charismatic has many abuses. If there were none, there shouldn’t be any problem.

 

[beng]

Karl Keating:

Whatever one might think of the charismatic movement within the Catholic Church, one thing seems undeniable: The movement is in decline.

Twenty and thirty years ago its conferences were many, and they drew thousands of people. Today there are far fewer conferences, and they tend to draw much smaller crowds.

There was enough interest in the charismatic movement, at one time, to support a monthly magazine, “New Covenant.” Over a long stretch of years the magazine lost subscribers. Eventually it changed its focus, away from the charismatic movement, but even that wasn’t enough to keep it alive.

There used to be many “covenant communities” and other associations arising out of the charismatic movement. Most of them have diminished in size, fissioned, or just disappeared.

A much smaller proportion of Catholics identifies itself as charismatic today, as compared to several decades ago.

Some members of these forums may have the perception that the movement is growing in their areas–and it may be. On the whole, though, the movement is in decline. It might be instructive to think why this might be and what it might say about the movement.

In some Asian Countries (who gets everything late) it’s kinda florishing.

I will try to enlightened these people when I’m home (and I have doing it now in the state to many countrymen)

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

HI Karl. I can tell you why its on the decline, and thats because the rcc does nothing to promote it. When was the last time you heard from the pulpit promoting the movement? The majority of the priests want nothing to do with it.I was involved with the charismatic movement since 1985 and I can honestly say that in the diocese there were no more than 2 or 3 prayer groups In the churches where priests were involved, their parishes florished.If priests dont encourage the movement what do you think is going to happen? It will never grow. So I say praise God for those who do answer the call. They are the ones that want to be more intimate with Jesus. They are the ones who recieve Gods extra blessings.

Probably people don’t encourage it because of the abuses?

 

[beng]

roibeard:

Careful, Beng - you’re starting to sound like a “sola scriptura” type …

Every Catholic doctrines are biblical (explicitly or implicitly)

 

[beng]

CatholicGeek:

I wonder how it can be so knocked when our current Pope has encouraged it. Thanks for chiming it!

God Bless

This is Charismatic last line of defense. Which we could asnwer by stating:

1. SSPX was once approved
2. Tertulian was a Father of The Church altough he died a heretics (but he’s still a father because he has 15 good Catholic years)
3. Vatican doesn’t investigate much until it become really bothersome (IE: Hans Kung)

 

[James_2_24]

beng:

In some Asian Countries (who gets everything late) it’s kinda florishing.

I will try to enlightened these people when I’m home (and I have doing it now in the state to many countrymen)

Beng, where are you from?

 

[beng]

James_2:24:

Beng, where are you from?

Indonesia

 

[James_2_24]

oh! right next door… i’m from the Philippines.

 

[justinw]

If anybody is still watching this thread…

Many lament that a certain warmth can’t be found within the RCC even though we have a rich heritage. We benefit from the guidance that can be found in obedience to her authority in our lives. But we look across the street and see the Protestants doing their thing. They are very happy, except they burn out.

Somebody towards the top of this thread mentioned Covenant Communities. I invite you to read about the People of Praise, which sprung up from the Catholic Charismatic Renewal conferences that were pretty huge a few decades ago. The fact of the matter is, our lives are not the sum of the prayer meetings we attend. There’s much more to them. There are so many opportunities for receiving the sacraments, and also to be Christ’s hands in the lives of our closest and farthest neighbors. I grew up in a Covenant Community which did not replace my Catholic faith. Rather, it enriched it, and empowered me to bring my Catholic faith to those around me who found it very foreign. So… w/out my Catholic faith, my Charismatic experience would have been very baseless, as a house built upon sand. Don’t look at Protestantism and assume that it’s failures will be our failures.

Covenant Communities

(PS- I’m looking for Catholic Charismatics in Chicago Metro / Gold Coast… any help? as a clue to what i was grasping at in this post, I’m looking for Catholic Charismatics to not only pray with, but to work and serve with! Corporal works of mercy!)

 

[beng]

justinw:

If anybody is still watching this thread…

Many lament that a certain warmth can’t be found within the RCC even though we have a rich heritage. We benefit from the guidance that can be found in obedience to her authority in our lives. But we look across the street and see the Protestants doing their thing. They are very happy, except they burn out.

Somebody towards the top of this thread mentioned Covenant Communities. I invite you to read about the People of Praise, which sprung up from the Catholic Charismatic Renewal conferences that were pretty huge a few decades ago. The fact of the matter is, our lives are not the sum of the prayer meetings we attend. There’s much more to them. There are so many opportunities for receiving the sacraments, and also to be Christ’s hands in the lives of our closest and farthest neighbors. I grew up in a Covenant Community which did not replace my Catholic faith. Rather, it enriched it, and empowered me to bring my Catholic faith to those around me who found it very foreign. So… w/out my Catholic faith, my Charismatic experience would have been very baseless, as a house built upon sand. Don’t look at Protestantism and assume that it’s failures will be our failures.

Covenant Communities

(PS- I’m looking for Catholic Charismatics in Chicago Metro / Gold Coast… any help? as a clue to what i was grasping at in this post, I’m looking for Catholic Charismatics to not only pray with, but to work and serve with! Corporal works of mercy!)

Your charismatic experince would be forbidden if you speak tongues amongst believer (in a prayer meeting, in a charismatic gathering, in church) and there was no interpretation. Read 1Cor 14:27-28.

 

[justinw]

beng:

Your charismatic experince would be forbidden if you speak tongues amongst believer (in a prayer meeting, in a charismatic gathering, in church) and there was no interpretation. Read 1Cor 14:27-28.

If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let them be silent in church and speak to themselves and to God

Ok… If you want to be reactive instead of proactive, (explaining what we can’t do instead of what we ought to be doing) what about if there is an interpreter? At the “Festival of Praise” that the Franciscan University of Steubenville has about once/month, occasionally they will allow 2 people to come up to the microphone, and one will speak their “tongue” directly into the mike, and then the second person will interpret.

What about earlier in that chapter? 14:1-5, but particularly verse 2:

For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit

How often, when you are praying in Church, are you praying directly to God? The above verse would suggest that every time you are doing that, tongues are “acceptable”.

Lastly, I have never “received” the “gift of tongues”. I don’t use that as an indicator of a person’s faith life. One is not better or worse for praying in tongues. What I do know is that many people have told me that when they are praying in tongues, they strongly feel at that moment like the Spirit is guiding them in their words, and that they are being more accurate than they could ever hope to be by themselves.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

beng:

Your charismatic experince would be forbidden if you speak tongues amongst believer (in a prayer meeting, in a charismatic gathering, in church) and there was no interpretation. Read 1Cor 14:27-28.

My people will perish for the lack of knowledge,says the Lord.

 

[Buckeyejoe]

I was a charismatic for many years, in some ways I still am, Can I speak in tongues?..You bet! Are Charismatics Cathoilics?..To me their the top of the line Catholics!