Poll: U.S. Catholics want a younger, more liberal pope

[JMJSHJ]

CMatt,

Do you consider Mother Teresa to be a person who cared for the poor in this world? She was also a staunch defender of the unborn and somehow I think its something we can all learn from.

 

[Lapey]

I’m going to assume that this level of exageration is being employed as a device to refocus attention on abortion on this insiders forum.

Not sure I understand your confusion here. The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization on planet earth in every category. Is She perfect and has She touched every needy person? No. Now get up and go touch someone! The whole point of this thread is about the want of some for a liberal pope, I say there is no liberal or conservative, only truth. One truth. So, yes this is an attempt to get back on track. People use the tag social justice to allow the abortion issue to stay under the surface. They ignore the plight of the “little ones”. So yes I will always direct all attention to that! We should all see that hundreds of millions of poor and hungry homeless naked babies has been slaughtered and still we have Catholics, like some here whether they call themselves that or not, who will not acknowledge that.

Think about it this way, all little ones who have been murdered, through surgical abortion, chemical abortion and all methods equal by some statistics into the 350 million range. That’s more than our current population; let me ask you, do you think that has an effect on our economy? Do you think there would be less poverty if those little ones would be here with us?

That’s fine if that’s your intent and if you’re assuming everyone here has some knowledge of the considerable work the RCC does locally and around the world in regards to the sick and the poor. But please bear in mind that this sort of statement is heard by outsiders as aloofness towards the sick in poor.

There is no way my comments can be seen as “aloof” towards the poor and sick; that is unless you feel I do not care for them and work with them, I am a deacon, this is my ministry. What does happen often is people who call themselves liberal will often take words like mine and automatically make them mean I do not care for the poor and sick, that is called disdain; when someone automatically thinks the worst of you when you disagree with their perspectives. Think about this before you correct me next time.

I also think it’s counterproductive since you offered what I see as the most compelling lines for the Catholic position on this thread: This not only validates concern for those Jesus lists in Matthew 25 but also serves as a bridge, both “out” from the starting point of abortion to other issues of poverty and injustice and “in” from other issues of poverty and injustice to abortion.

No it is not counterproductive in the least. What is counterproductive is bringing up in the name of social justice these people who fit the category of poor and sick who are born, but ignore the poor and sick who are not yet born. We lose millions more children to abortion in one year in this country than kids to hunger in probably most of the world combined. And the ones lost to hunger across the world are most often starved by their own governments. The same type of governments that some of our countrymen here would like to see here! Scary how dumb we are as a people.

I thank you for your words about the statement I wrote, I hope you and Matt pray with it and take to heart what it means, there is no social justice as long as there is legal and/or illegal abortion in this world!

 

[Lapey]

Lisa, I say and claim no such thing. No where will you find me saying I support abortion. Or promoting my support for it. In fact I’m sure I have said the opposite. That if I were a woman, I personally *wouldn’t *have one. And how it is one of the most difficult issues. One which I have never taken lightly to this day and one which I have struggled with like no other. But as with many issues, I simply don’t see it as a black and white issue. And it is like none other. Balancing the rights of women with the rights of the unborn is not easy in a nation of plural beliefs and non belief. If it were, the issue would not be the conflict it is today. But I understand you and others have difficulty with how our Catholic Vice President has for example explained his political position too. I know though part of the difficulty stems from those who are anti choice in every circumstance thinking people who are for some choice, are pro abortion. But I know in the real world that is simply not the case. Ok I’m going to move on from our back and forth on abortion. It has never gotten us anywhere. Have a good night.

There is no right for a woman to kill her child. Cardinal Ratzinger has a nice piece he wrote about “pluralism”. I will find it for you.

 

[Lapey]

Lisa, I’ll just add we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the poor. As I believe when I read Matt 25 Jesus is speaking of people who have been born and who are poor and hungry, thirsty, homeless, in need of clothing, sick without adequate health care, and He includes prisoners. Then explains if we serve those, we serve Him. In other words we love Him and our neighbor. And as He goes on to say in the chapter, shall be be righteous in His eyes for eternal life.

Many times in scripture there is talk of being ordained for a task before being born. I already quoted Jeremiah to you but you ignored it. “I knew you before you were formed in the womb.”

There are many passages that tells of Jesus’ love for the little ones, the most obvious one is where He tells the disciples not to obstruct the “little ones” from coming to Him.

To see Matthew 25 as simply as you put it and absent of meaning for the unborn is just false; and that is being extremely charitable!

 

[Lapey]

I’m going to assume that this level of exageration is being employed as a device to refocus attention on abortion on this insiders forum. That’s fine if that’s your intent and if you’re assuming everyone here has some knowledge of the considerable work the RCC does locally and around the world in regards to the sick and the poor. But please bear in mind that this sort of statement is heard by outsiders as aloofness towards the sick in poor.

I also think it’s counterproductive since you offered what I see as the most compelling lines for the Catholic position on this thread: This not only validates concern for those Jesus lists in Matthew 25 but also serves as a bridge, both “out” from the starting point of abortion to other issues of poverty and injustice and “in” from other issues of poverty and injustice to abortion.

This was a good post. And we do all have different experiences with the RCC. It reminded me though of one of mine. A few yrs ago during the Great Recession, I sat at a weekday Mass. The priest was discussing the poor. In his homily he mentioned parishoners were complaining about this particular parish not doing enough for the poor. And the words that came out of his mouth next floored me to this day. He said his answer to the poor is to get a job. I know that may be the ultimate answer. But honestly I nearly got up and walked out that very minute. The only thing that kept me there was I was attending in memory of a loved one on that day. I’ve been back to that parish just one time since due to scheduling. But decided I could no longer go there. I chalked it up to perhaps it was him being a conservative. But it just didn’t seem to fit the Gospel message I was familiar with.

You are twisting my words again to make me appear as though not concerned with the poor. i think there is a rule about that somewhere…thou shall not bare false witness against thy neighbor…or something like that.

To disagree on something is one thing, but to think less of a person’s dignity because you differ on an issue is wrong. You have no idea what that priest was dealing with or truly referring to that day. But instead of going and talking to him you chose to write him off as a conservative who does not care. Yes that is very Christian like.

 

[Lapey]

CMatt…did you ever here Christ talk about forgiveness? Because you have been bringing up this tired example for several years now. We are all human…and don’t always do or say the best…and yet you refuse to forgive this priest…because you always bring it up.

Let me tell you, for each story like that…I have a match for it within my protestant days…but I have moved on and forgiven them.

I think it’s time you do so for this poor priest…

But Annabelle, if he forgets what justifies his leaving the Church then it won’t be justified!

 

[Lapey]

The Bishop, Priest, and Decons march at our rallies at PPH. Because your Priest or Bishop can’t be at the rallies you choose doen’t mean they don’t go or are not there in spirit, they have a magnatude of duties to preform, cut them some slack, help them by carring this load when they are not avvailable.

I was not criticizing them for not being busy or not taking part in rallys. Rather, the criticism is about the general nature of homilies by much of the clergy of all levels of hierarchy.

Most preach nice, not truth. Google Pope Francis’ homily from yesterday, that was not nice, it was truth! He seems to be one who will bring about the challenge directed at the clergy to preach “Jesus Christ Crucified”. Something that is lacking in todays preaching.

Believe me, I see many at these rallys, I stand and pray with them. Our new Holy Father has been to these rallys as well, he is very active in the pro-life movement. I didn’t know anything about him before his election, what I am seeing I like!

PS. They have to earn slack by preaching truth, I do not give anything.

 

[Lapey]

]

Gary - this is great that you’re bringing up liberation theology. “Christianized Marxism” has some legitimacy. Two famous liberation theologians, both priests (and brothers) are Ernesto and Fernando Cardenal from Nicaragua. Both too, drew the ire of Catholic leadership for becoming too entwined with the Sandanistas under Daniel Ortega -Fernando was removed from the Jesuits for taking on his role as Minister of Education (later reinstated after he left the government) and Ernesto by JP II himself, captured in a famous photograph at the airport in Managua. History has shown that in the long run they were wrong for placing too much trust in earthly political process (as is the Christian right wing in America for cozying up to the GOP).

It’s important to note that liberationists were most notably critiqued by two Catholic leaders; JP II and Cardinal Ratzinger. Both of their formative years were lived under political chaos that led to political tyranny so it’s no wonder that they were very concerned about priests becoming government officials in a country which also was characterized by political chaos.

And yet - this doesn’t mean that liberation theology has nothing to teach us. Its basic lesson is a good one to remember; the scriptures read very differently from a point of powerlessness than they do from a point of power. It’s important for those of us in powerful and wealthy societies to make sure we’re listening to what the poor have to teach us (a la St. Francis of Assisi, Dorothy Day, St. Vincent de Paul, etc.).

So cozying up to the Dem party with a platform which is in stark opposition to Church teachings is better??? Wow, I am lost.

And please be careful who you lump into your version of LT. St. Fracis will teach us through Pope francis exactly the truth of LT. He fought against this myth of current day LT as Arch Bishop.

 

[Lapey]

The RCC is present and at work all over the world. In fact, Catholic Charisties and CRS are often the first “boots on the ground” when disaster strikes.

I think one of the best things we can do for the “least of them” is to listen to what they have to say to us when we’re working on their behalf.

We agree, and if they would be born we could here them crying out for their little brothers and sisters.

 

[Lapey]

Actually, I believe in relevantism :tiphat:

Oh, blieve me it is evident.

 

[Lapey]

Cardinal Ratzinger on pluralism in 2002…a must read for Catholics and all who prescribe to the doctrine of pluralism and/or relativism. Check it out…

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

 

[BackToTheRock]

Not sure I understand your confusion here. The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization on planet earth in every category. Is She perfect and has She touched every needy person? No. Now get up and go touch someone!

Right - I agree entirely that the RCC is the largest charitable organization on the planet. And I work every day with people with various needs and challenges. So far, no confusion/issue between us.

There is no way my comments can be seen as “aloof” towards the poor and sick; that is unless you feel I do not care for them and work with them, I am a deacon, this is my ministry.

Allow me to clarify. I’m not saying that I see your comments as being aloof; rather, I’m saying outsiders to the RCC can see them as such. And thank you for your ministry as a deacon. The Church would be far poorer if people like you didn’t hear/answer the call.

What does happen often is people who call themselves liberal will often take words like mine and automatically make them mean I do not care for the poor and sick, that is called disdain; when someone automatically thinks the worst of you when you disagree with their perspectives. Think about this before you correct me next time.

I’m not correcting you. I’m simply dialoguing with you.

No it is not counterproductive in the least. What is counterproductive is bringing up in the name of social justice these people who fit the category of poor and sick who are born, but ignore the poor and sick who are not yet born.

Right again. Mother Theresa, Cardinal Bernadin, and a host of others have been clear about this.
As for being counterproductive - my point is that there are times we say things in ways that can be used to detract from the very point we’re trying to make. Years ago in my Protestant days I had a preaching professor who told us, “You’re not just responsible for what you say; you’re responsible for what people hear you say.” He was intentionally overstating his point to remind us that, while we can’t be responsible for how people filter our words, we still have to be intentional about our public presentation.

I thank you for your words about the statement I wrote, I hope you and Matt pray with it and take to heart what it means, there is no social justice as long as there is legal and/or illegal abortion in this world!

You hit the nail on the head again! The seamless garment approach works in both directions. Our concern isn’t limited to abortion but we must care about abortion.

 

[BackToTheRock]

So cozying up to the Dem party with a platform which is in stark opposition to Church teachings is better??? Wow, I am lost.

I didn’t say that.

And please be careful who you lump into your version of LT. St. Fracis will teach us through Pope francis exactly the truth of LT. He fought against this myth of current day LT as Arch Bishop.

I include St. Francis as one who truly cast his lost with the poor. I didn’t say he was a liberation theologian. I, too, look forward to what Pope Francis has to teach us.

 

[BackToTheRock]

Actually, I believe in relevantism :tiphat:

Oh, blieve me it is evident.

In all seriousness, I think you do too in that you engage in your ministry in ways that are very relevant to the concerns of the gospel, including prolife concerns.

 

[LisaA]

Lisa, I say and claim no such thing. No where will you find me saying I support abortion. Or promoting my support for it. In fact I’m sure I have said the opposite. That if I were a woman, I personally *wouldn’t *have one. And how it is one of the most difficult issues. One which I have never taken lightly to this day and one which I have struggled with like no other. But as with many issues, I simply don’t see it as a black and white issue. And it is like none other. Balancing the rights of women with the rights of the unborn is not easy in a nation of plural beliefs and non belief. If it were, the issue would not be the conflict it is today. But I understand you and others have difficulty with how our Catholic Vice President has for example explained his political position too. I know though part of the difficulty stems from those who are anti choice in every circumstance thinking people who are for some choice, are pro abortion. But I know in the real world that is simply not the case. Ok I’m going to move on from our back and forth on abortion. It has never gotten us anywhere. Have a good night.

CMatt I’ve read through many other responses that have pointed out the fallacies in your arguments…which those of us on CAF have done for YEARS just as someone pointed out you keep bringing up the example of a Priest who may have said something inappropriate or maybe simply taken out of context.

I give you credit, you keep trying to justify your completely unjustified position regarding abortion, complete with the same platitudes about “weighing the rights of the woman…” without bothering to complete the sentence…“to kill her unborn child.” As to our disgraceful VP and Nancy Pelosi and other “Catholic” politicians who scandalize others, there is NO EXCUSE for their ignorant and confusing statements.

FWIW a dear friend who is originally from Ecuador and is of course DELIGHTED at the choice of our new Holy Father Pope Francis, just sent me a clipping where Pope Francis spoke openly about denying communion to politicians, healthcare workers and others who claim to be Catholic but support abortion politically. May our Holy Father be an inspiration to Priests everywhere. Maybe with careful and thoughtful considerations the hard hearts of these public figures will be turned toward God instead of the next poll

Lisa

 

[Lapey]

In all seriousness, I think you do too in that you engage in your ministry in ways that are very relevant to the concerns of the gospel, including prolife concerns.

This is where you are wrong for sure, I do not live in relativism. There is only one truth. When my thoughts are out of line with Catholic teaching I do research to see where I am in error, then change to that truth. Capital punishment was one issue for me where I was at odds, but no longer.

You called yourself a relativist, please go back to th elink I posted with Cardinal Ratzinger’s writing on this.

 

[Lapey]

CMatt I’ve read through many other responses that have pointed out the fallacies in your arguments…which those of us on CAF have done for YEARS just as someone pointed out you keep bringing up the example of a Priest who may have said something inappropriate or maybe simply taken out of context.

I give you credit, you keep trying to justify your completely unjustified position regarding abortion, complete with the same platitudes about “weighing the rights of the woman…” without bothering to complete the sentence…“to kill her unborn child.” As to our disgraceful VP and Nancy Pelosi and other “Catholic” politicians who scandalize others, there is NO EXCUSE for their ignorant and confusing statements.

FWIW a dear friend who is originally from Ecuador and is of course DELIGHTED at the choice of our new Holy Father Pope Francis, just sent me a clipping where Pope Francis spoke openly about denying communion to politicians, healthcare workers and others who claim to be Catholic but support abortion politically. May our Holy Father be an inspiration to Priests everywhere. Maybe with careful and thoughtful considerations the hard hearts of these public figures will be turned toward God instead of the next poll

Lisa

Amen Lisa, and this Pope will have an opportunity tuesday to reject Joe Biden’s presentation of him self for communion as he is said to be traveling to the Mass of Installation representing the government of the USA. I pray he holds to his witness to all church leaders.

 

[Lapey]

I didn’t say that.

I include St. Francis as one who truly cast his lost with the poor. I didn’t say he was a liberation theologian. I, too, look forward to what Pope Francis has to teach us.

But you implied this very thing as often happens when debating liberals. If I disagree with you it’s only because of political ties; “Oh, it can’t be true because he is a mouthpiece for the GOP.”

I can assure you that if I am a mouthpiece for anything it will not be a party that stands for evil like the democrat platform. No Catholic can stand with them and not be against Church teaching. The reason we as Catholics don’t know this and reject it so flippantly is that we who preach, the clergy, for the most part do not preach the truth from the pulpit. We preach NICE (well I don’t), well nice doesn’t get anyone closer to salvation; in fact it leads us to the road to destruction which is wide and highly traveled.

 

[ephesians4]

FWIW a dear friend who is originally from Ecuador and is of course DELIGHTED at the choice of our new Holy Father Pope Francis, just sent me a clipping where Pope Francis spoke openly about denying communion to politicians, healthcare workers and others who claim to be Catholic but support abortion politically. May our Holy Father be an inspiration to Priests everywhere. Maybe with careful and thoughtful considerations the hard hearts of these public figures will be turned toward God instead of the next poll
Lisa

Prayers that Pope Francis can by dignified words and example lead or at least start the way to stopping the genocide done quietly behind closed doors.

 

[BackToTheRock]

This is where you are wrong for sure, I do not live in relativism. There is only one truth. When my thoughts are out of line with Catholic teaching I do research to see where I am in error, then change to that truth. Capital punishment was one issue for me where I was at odds, but no longer.

You called yourself a relativist, please go back to th elink I posted with Cardinal Ratzinger’s writing on this.

No, I called myself a “relevantist” simply as a pun since the word “relativist” gets tossed around so frequently (I was hoping the tip-of-the-hat icon was a clue that this was not a serious statement). And yes, I 've read Cardinal Ratzinger’s writings on this although he is far from the first to do so. There are considerable writings on Modernism which predate him.