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CMatt25
Guest
Hi James, I understand. I used to wish that too but I am at much greater peace with it now. But I’ll try to reply. Despite Deacon Lapey proclaiming back there that he believed I was a Catholic and would forever be one, there are other faithful Catholics on CAF who disagree with the deacon’s identification of me. Since this is CAF I of course assumed all faithful Catholics would agree with the deacon if he is right on such a basic Catholic teaching. And my profile would reflect the noun the deacon said, even if with an adjective. But it’s those others who have driven me away.Dear CMatt25
I was looking at your Religion: **A Christianity that doesn’t exclude nor drives liberals away
**
I wish it was more explicit, because it is difficult to understand without knowing what you mean by liberals and what you mean by Christianity.
Christianity is a word used to describe many things. Christianity is used to describe a philosophy derived from the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Christianity is used to describe any of the hundreds of sects that embrace some of the teachings of Jesus Christ, each of them different in their doctrines than the other. In this definition, Christianity is not a religion, but many religions, Methodist, Episcopalian, Baptist, Assembly of God, Orthodox, and on and on.
But if you mean Christianity as a single religion, it can refer only to the Church established by Jesus Christ, now called the Roman Catholic Church, and given authority by Jesus to conserve and proclaim his teachings free from error until the end of time. Since you used the term Christianity under the category Religion, I will assume you mean the Roman Catholic Church, although you may have one of the many sects in mind, and if so, you should name it, or if a new creation your own, give it a name.
If by liberal you mean someone who is radical like Saint Francis, giving up all his wealth to serve God, becoming an itinerant preacher, serving the poor and needy, and being obedient to the Roman Catholic Church, then I cannot see the Church excluding them or driving them away, especially since they pledge their allegiance to the Church.
But if you mean someone who does not embrace all the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church in serious matters of faith and morals, then it’s not that the Church excludes them, it’s that they exclude themselves, and rather than being driven away by the Church, they themselves have abandoned the Church. Is this what you mean?The Church doesn’t mean to be unfriendly to anyone, but it is important that it keeps its teachings free from error, and that all its members subscribe to those teachings.
It makes dialogue easier if we know who each other is or claims to be. Me? I’m a Roman Catholic. I joined this Catholic Answers Forum to learn more about my Catholic Faith and to help others who want to know more about the Catholic Faith in so far as I am able.
OTOH I can’t list one of the “sects” as I have never attended one of their Christian worship services yet. I am giving serious consideration to doing so though. Somewhere I will be fully welcomed as I am at this point on my lifelong faith journey with Him. If I do, for my first time it would probably be TEC or UCC. But even then I would not be a member to be able to list one of those religions.
By liberal I mostly mean politically I suppose. There are a lot of faithful Catholics on CAF who have said if you vote for a particular candidate or hold a particular political POV in a secular election, you can not be Catholic. This despite the USCCB’s Faithful Citizenship guide in which the bishops said Catholics are not to be single issue voters and that they the bishops were not giving direction on how to vote.
So I list Christianity because I profess Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I can’t list Jewish, Muslim, etc. And I believe despite our differences, all Christians, Catholics and “Methodist, Episcopalian, Baptist, Assembly of God, Orthodox, and on and on” are at least united in the One most important of all: Belief in Him as their Lord and Savior. And I believe it is He Who breaks down walls.
Liberal is in there because of my political POV and how more often than not I vote.
I hope this helped. In any case I wish you all the best on your faith journey and peace be with you always.
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Lapey
Guest
Don’t stand too proud here; being Catholic in name only is nothing to be proud of. And please leave my name out of your discussions in an effort to bolster your position and put down others. You hold grudges way too long. You need to learn how to forgive, less you will not see forgiveness.
You are welcome back home in the truth, but you need to look past your own ideas for that truth. Your version is not truth, read the entirety of the CCC, you must learn truth and conform.
There is no liberal or conservative in the Church, only moral and immoral. Abortion = immoral, quite simple. This is not conservative, according to Church teaching this is center.
The walls are constructed by you.
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yukonbrad
Guest
Regardless of what most American Catholics may or may not want they are a minority in our faith. The vast majority of Catholics come from developing nations - in Africa, South/Central America and parts of Asia. Don’t mean to be blunt but the direction the church will take comes from doctine and scripture: and if any influence is to be accorded it will come from the majority not the minority. Perhaps it comes as a shock to many but the good ole USA is not the center of the universe which everything revolves around.
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Frank_Drebin
Guest
The constant schtick with CMatt is “once Catholic, always Catholic” which he uses to defend anyone who publically spits in the Church’s face and lives a life of anything but a Catholic. It’s tiresome, for someone who is proud to be part of a “smaller, more pure Church.”
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ProVobis
Guest
That means too much cable and national news watching.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
(I watch a lot. Need to know what the opposition is thinking, saying, and planning.
)
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Frank_Drebin
Guest
Anyone who believes this stuff politically is deluding themselves. Catholics have a great concern for the poor and the unborn. Conservatives politically do the same thing. The details can be debated on how they support the poor and whatnot, but there is plenty there to serve as evidence. Political liberals simply can’t say they care about both. Tolerating abortion automatically disqualifies that platform from being even remotely consistent wiht Catholic teaching.
Statements like “balancing the rights of the mother with the rights of the unborn” sounds nice, but are really nonsensical. It means favoring, not balacing anything, the rights of the mother OVER the rights of the unborn. It’s like saying we want to balance the rights of the wolves to eat sheep with the rights of the sheep not to be eaten by wolves. The next sound you hear is the wolves doing a post-dinner belch.
Besides, you can;t balance binary issues. It is either a zero or a one. As soon as you concede that anything less than one (choosing life) is acceptable, the only other digit that occupy the space is zero (choosing death). Semantics games and nuanced language doesn’t make someone less dead.
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CMatt25
Guest
Of course I have and you don’t know who I’ve forgiven. But FYI no it is not time. I forgave him long ago. But forgiveness does not mean we forget our experiences. And I only brought it up as one of my experiences after BackToTheRock spoke to the deacon about assuming everyone here has some knowledge of the considerable work the RCC does locally. That was simply an experience I had locally and was reminded of it. I also have the experience of a very small Episcopal church locally, certainly not a wealthy church at all in terms of money. But they operate one of the best outreach programs, with help from other denominations, for the needy and homeless I’ve seen with food, prepared meals, and clothing. It’s also not a thrift type store. But free of charge to those in need which is also something I like about it. Since Matt 25 may be the most important aspect of Christ’s earthly ministry to me, their local outreach would be a huge factor, along with their very welcoming arms to anyone wherever they are on their journey, should I ever worship with them. When I had clothing to donate, I checked around first with local Catholic parishes in my area and found one collected clothing for Goodwill to sell. The parish then receives a percentage from Goodwill. Another parish collected items for the one that has the donations sold through Goodwill. I checked with a battered women’s shelter but they also were a thrift type store with nominal charges for items… I know Catholic Charities does wonders worldwide and there may well be some parishes locally which do as well. I confess I didn’t call each one. But those are my experiences and forgive me to have tired you with them.CMatt…did you ever here Christ talk about forgiveness? Because you have been bringing up this tired example for several years now. We are all human…and don’t always do or say the best…and yet you refuse to forgive this priest…because you always bring it up.
Let me tell you, for each story like that…I have a match for it within my protestant days…but I have moved on and forgiven them.
I think it’s time you do so for this poor priest…
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Frank_Drebin
Guest
You are looking for a group that matches your specific belief system, or does not judge with any standards whatsoever. Logically, why not simply start your own Church or sect? Not that I am encouraging your non-conformace with catholic teachings, but lots of people have started sects. Like, every non-Catholic Christian founder ever.
Wouldn’t that allow you to mold your worship of God around your belief system?
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Elizabeth502
Guest
This sounds like an excellent learning and application opportunity for you. I have noticed, especially recently, how poorly communicated & coordinated most local Catholic charity projects are (at least in my region! maybe not in yours). One has to beg for information, repeatedly, and often does not hear anything until weeks later, if at all. Often, non-Catholic churches are more organized and efficient. It would be a wonderful apostolate on your part, if you are sincere and not just complaining about supposed lukewarmness among Catholics (for the poor) as an excuse for your own lukewarm assent, to bring those lessons directly to your local parish (or another one in need of such initiatives). I know that I have been encouraged to do that myself.
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CMatt25
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Thank you for this. I agree.
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CMatt25
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Actually I did talk with him on the phone. And he said, "You don’t like Fr (his last name)'s homilies? And that pretty much was the end of the conversation and I could tell he had other things to do besides being on the phone with me. He’s difficult to talk to though. He says people walk out of his office because they don’t want to hear what he has to say.You are twisting my words again to make me appear as though not concerned with the poor. i think there is a rule about that somewhere…thou shall not bare false witness against thy neighbor…or something like that.
To disagree on something is one thing, but to think less of a person’s dignity because you differ on an issue is wrong. You have no idea what that priest was dealing with or truly referring to that day. But instead of going and talking to him you chose to write him off as a conservative who does not care. Yes that is very Christian like.
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Frank_Drebin
Guest
You mean like people leave a Church because they don’t like what they are hearing?
Regardless, one person does not a church make, save for Jesus Christ. To eschew a group over a person is silly. That person will eventually die, and the teachings live on. If they give you pause, after diligent research and prayer and understanding, we have a different matter.
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CMatt25
Guest
BackToThe Rock, I sincerely hope and pray your wife’s surgery went well and she will soon be on her way to a full recovery. May the Lord be with her always and with you and your family. God bless.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
I do know (have experienced) that priests, like the rest of us, can be rude, dismissive, and insensitive. I have never attended any parish staffed only by Immaculately Conceived priests. If/when they misspeak, or misbehave in slight ways, I brush it off, sometimes ignore them for awhile (they might in fact be going through a tough time or feeling overwhelmed), and protect myself by not interacting with them until they’re less stressed out. We are not required to be at the mercy of anyone in any position who is treating us unkindly. And certainly if injustice is occurring (such as verbally abusive treatment within an approved function/lay ministry), we have a right to speak up, and respectfully object to such treatment.You are twisting my words again to make me appear as though not concerned with the poor. i think there is a rule about that somewhere…thou shall not bare false witness against thy neighbor…or something like that.
To disagree on something is one thing, but to think less of a person’s dignity because you differ on an issue is wrong. You have no idea what that priest was dealing with or truly referring to that day. But instead of going and talking to him you chose to write him off as a conservative who does not care. Yes that is very Christian like.
But they have their good days and their bad days, like all of us. What I have seen most often in parishes, is that their bad days (or moments) have generally been preceded by an overwhelming number of complaints directed toward them, by dissatisfied parishioners, many of whom are unreasonable. (I’m not suggesting CMatt’s was.) I once witnessed such an exchange, in fact. A parishioner was offering the pastor just one more complaint (after Mass), and the priest bristled and erupted, saying something like, “Everybody thinks that they have a better idea!”
I think priests really like appointments for airing concerns, precisely because it doesn’t catch them off guard, unlike the above example. They have time to gather themselves and undoubtedly pray about the meeting if they need to collect themselves amid the storms around them.
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LisaA
Guest
I think the above bolded statement says it all with respect to your religious philosophy. You obviously have a “devotion” to Matthew 25, enough to take your CAF name from it apparently. So to YOU, Christ’s “feed the hungry, clothe the naked” is your focus…and indeed it is admirable and something the Church does better than any other organization (local issues notwithstanding). OTOH you need to get to the end of the verses to get the real command…“what you do to the least of these” should be considered as essential as the commands regarding clothing drives.
That being said, if there IS a demand for used clothing at your Parish, then likely they have a program to collect, sort, clean, and donate same. The reality is that this is heavily labor intensive and for each Parish to have its own clothes closet is probably not very practical given the constraints on space, personnel, and labor needed. So our Parish will have periodic clothing drives for specific charities such as the “Mission” a church/shelter/soup kitchen in the area where lots of folks with substance abuse and homelessness issues gather. We have also collected baby clothes for a local charity that helps young moms and babies. IOW don’t be critical of your parish because they don’t have a clothes closet. Trust me on this one, it is a LOT of work and sometimes better to let those already engaged in clothing for poor, homeless and struggling folks do the heavy lifting.
Also what’s stopping YOU from setting this up at your Parish or Church? If you think there is a need, go for it.
Lisa
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CMatt25
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I’ve clarified enough on this thread about the abortion issue. I obviously would not have an abortion if I were a woman. But I also don’t believe I have the right to force my beliefs on this issue upon every woman. Especially upon a woman who’s been raped or who’s own life is in danger. I believe in the sanctity of life. But for me that encompasses life beyond the womb as well. And most certainly I believe it encompasses many other issues other than abortion. Those people already born who Christ spoke about in Matt 25. Whether in their lives they have food, clothing, shelter, adequate affordable healthcare. I believe it includes war and peace issues. I believe it includes capital punishment. The Church in Her catechism speaks of capital punishment in only rare if not non existent cases today. Yet I’ve known conservative Catholics, attend Mass weekly and everything, but with conservative political leanings who seem to favor the state killing an already born human person in far more than rare if not non existent cases. The sanctity of life for me also calls me to care about the lives of women and their families as well and what an unwanted pregnancy may do to their lives. Or even to the life of the unwanted child once born after a woman has been forced under civil law to carry to term despite if her beliefs differ from yours or mine. As a quick study of various Christian faiths will show there are differing religious views on the issue. And not even every Christian one agrees with the Catholic Church’s POV in outlawing abortion in all cases. I don’t walk in the shoes of these women and their families. And it’s not a simple black and white case to me as it is for Catholics. Nor is balancing the rights of women with the rights of the unborn nor is determining personhood rights for an embryo or fetus. Someone’s rights is going to take precedence. Either the woman’s or the fetus’s. It’s an imperfect world. I don’t expect any of you to understand my sincerity or my thought process though. I’m going to leave that to God. Blessings on your faith journey and peace.
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Technically you haven’t because forgiveness is not about a feeling.
It’s:
- Do you pray for them?
- Are you polite when you see them?
- Do you NOT tell everyone what they have done?
I have news for you…no church will be perfect…because it has humans in it. So if you think you won’t get one that has a preacher you disagree with or someone who bothers you or looks down their nose…then I have a bridge to sell you!
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CMatt25
Guest
You don’t know me. Pride is so far removed from my personality. But I forgive you.
I will gladly leave you out of the discussion. But then leave me out of yours as well and don’t identify me as a Catholic and will forever be, when others on “Catholic Answers” say something else. You’re big on correction though of other teachings.
The rest of your post reflects your faith and what you believe. But since you desire for me to leave you out of my discussions, my best wishes to you deacon in your life. And God bless.
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