Poll: Why is the Church losing its young people?

[randomusername]

Secular culture combined with not knowing enough about the faith. Things like Catholicism’s stance against abortion and gay marriage drives these people away. Young people often don’t understand that abortion is killing a human being, and they think that it’s just a silly rule designed to stomp on women. The Church is seen for old sexists when that it not the case nor is the Church sexist.

I used to think that people were reasoned out of it, but as a teenager myself, I’ve noticed that most of my friends who didn’t believe in God didn’t know a thing about most scientific theories that athiest scientists use. They only knew the names of a few of them and knew barely anything about even the most famous ones. But at the same time, despite going to Catholic schools, they had a very limited understanding of the Catholic Faith. I think that it’s their limited understanding and misunderstanding of parts of the Faith that leads to them not believing.

 

[alexandratm]

I’m not too sure this drives them away. It seems a lot like rules. They don’t question why there are rules in baseball or football, for example. Once they accept the rules, the game becomes interesting.

It used to be Catholics were required to fast everyday during Lent and abstain from meat every Friday. It seemed such an easy thing to do for most Catholics. Then they relaxed these rules, but that didn’t seem to convert too many into the faith. If anything more Catholics stayed away from Church. Maybe they just lost their Catholic identity, I don’t know.

I’m not saying do away with rules - I’m saying there has to be a better education of why there are rules. If a child isn’t taught why the church has a certain practice, and the child’s parents weren’t taught, eventually, it seems like a meaningless rule with no real reason to follow it to begin with. And then to be told that it’s a sin for not following the rule, it leaves the church as if it appears to care only about rules, and telling people no.

It’s not just a problem of education, but proper catechesis would go a long way. There were quite a few things I disagreed with, until I had them properly explained. If so many cradle Catholics don’t understand their own church, is it any wonder people leave?

 

[alexandratm]

Welcome to the fambly!

(I’m a 26 year gal.)

I know you just said you’re tired of hearing about abortion. You’ve probably heard it all before But considering we’re part of the Body together now, I’ll take some liberty and share some of my own thoughts with you, since you were kind to share yours with us.

Abortion is an issue near and dear to my heart, as are all the sexual-ethics bits, because I had a kind of conversion on them. I’m beginning to see just how fundamental they are. Along those lines, I see the issue of abortion as being one of the first principles of the broader social justice issues. (How are we going to get justice right in other areas if we can’t get a basic issue like human life right? Seems a bit out of whack.) And believe me, the struggle in just that one area is enough for a lifetime.

However, you’re absolutely correct that there is a continuity between all the social issues. Stemming abortion means helping to provide support systems, counseling, health, education, etc. (Which in my experience is far more helpful and life-changing if done in the context of bottom-up than top-down. And that takes a heck of a lot more work on the every-day level, doesn’t it?) See, that’s what I love about being a member of Christ’s body. No one person is meant to tackle all the issues. We’re called to work in a harmonious concert. I think, unfortunately, society has done a good job of pitting social justice against abortion, and vice versa. Which is nonsense. They’re all issues of social justice, but some people have special places in their hearts for certain causes. I see nothing wrong with that! As far as the cultural context goes, though, I believe a lot of the issues you mentioned are already seen as problems. At least, I see them that way. What I see in the law of the land, though, is that basic life is indeed not respected in the beginning. I don’t know about you, but I only have enough energy to tackle one injustice at a time! Unless you’re a super-hero like Mother Teresa. Surprisingly, even she said that abortion is the greatest destroyer of peace! (Christopher Hitchens thought that was ridiculous. Oh that Hitchens. I can’t help but like him with exasperation.)

As far as abortion and poverty go, someone told me once that Jesus sure as heck said we needed to focus first on the poverty already present. (We needed to have a plan for poverty before eliminating abortion.) I responded that I don’t think He wanted us to kill people who might be poor in order to prevent poverty.

So there’s a symbiotic relationship. I think of what Jesus said. “I came so that you might have life, and have it abundantly.” Classic Catholic both/and.

And again, welcome!

Once I discovered Catholics who tried to tackle abortion from the bottom up, rather than just say “Don’t do it. It’s murder.” - it really helped shift my worldview. People who want to ban abortions without the understanding of why some people feel desperate enough to resort to it, whether poverty, domestic violence, or other lack of options - it did nothing to bring me to their side of the issue.

I can’t speak for all areas, but locally, it seems like there’s a lot of political rallying, and constant talk of banning, and praying outside Planned Parenthood - but not much work for a Mary’s Shelter, or helping unemployed/underemployed families, or women in domestic abuse situations. There’s not financial support for women who would give the baby up for adoption, but can’t afford the cost of pregnancy but make too much money for government services.

Everyone knows that abortion ends a fetus’ life. We don’t need to be told over and over again how horrible it is, be presented with gory billboards at parish festivals**, of all places, and be faced with what seems, locally at least, and endless stream of focus on restriction, rather than prevention.

I can appreciate how large an issue abortion is, and how the valuation of life connects with so many other Catholic social justice teachings. But if other areas are like my area, I can see why young people feel driven away. There’s a fatigue to it. The communication style seems to so often focus on no, rather than reaching out to connect with others are prevent or effect change. And I think that’s what causes some young people to disconnect. It’s not abortion necessarily, it’s the feeling that the church isn’t really engaged - all talk, and very little action, as it were.

You have evangelical churches that are rising in popularity, and while a lot of people focus on the modern music or feel-good services, I think a lot to do with the popularity is community engagement. They go out and do. I don’t see that as much from the Catholic parishes here.

 

[ProVobis]

I’m not saying do away with rules - I’m saying there has to be a better education of why there are rules. If a child isn’t taught why the church has a certain practice, and the child’s parents weren’t taught, eventually, it seems like a meaningless rule with no real reason to follow it to begin with. And then to be told that it’s a sin for not following the rule, it leaves the church as if it appears to care only about rules, and telling people no.

It’s not just a problem of education, but proper catechesis would go a long way. There were quite a few things I disagreed with, until I had them properly explained. If so many cradle Catholics don’t understand their own church, is it any wonder people leave?

You make fair points.

But the Catholic church aside, don’t parents have rules? Schools? And how long will one work if he doesn’t abide by his employer’s rules? Rules are just the way society works. It’s easy to say a given speed limit or stop sign makes no sense but imagine what it would be without them.

 

[CaliLobo]

Hey everyone…

Please see my posts 47, 48, and 49 of this thread, which discuss how the Catholic Church can increase its sense of community among young people, and what it can learn from Protestants/Evangelicals regarding this issue. (And Catholics on CAF have admitted that the CC can learn from Evangelical churches on this issue.)

 

[johnnyc176]

Once I discovered Catholics who tried to tackle abortion from the bottom up, rather than just say “Don’t do it. It’s murder.” - it really helped shift my worldview. People who want to ban abortions without the understanding of why some people feel desperate enough to resort to it, whether poverty, domestic violence, or other lack of options - it did nothing to bring me to their side of the issue.

I can’t speak for all areas, but locally, it seems like there’s a lot of political rallying, and constant talk of banning, and praying outside Planned Parenthood - but not much work for a Mary’s Shelter, or helping unemployed/underemployed families, or women in domestic abuse situations. There’s not financial support for women who would give the baby up for adoption, but can’t afford the cost of pregnancy but make too much money for government services.

Everyone knows that abortion ends a fetus’ life. We don’t need to be told over and over again how horrible it is, be presented with gory billboards at parish festivals**, of all places, and be faced with what seems, locally at least, and endless stream of focus on restriction, rather than prevention.

I can appreciate how large an issue abortion is, and how the valuation of life connects with so many other Catholic social justice teachings. But if other areas are like my area, I can see why young people feel driven away. There’s a fatigue to it. The communication style seems to so often focus on no, rather than reaching out to connect with others are prevent or effect change. And I think that’s what causes some young people to disconnect. It’s not abortion necessarily, it’s the feeling that the church isn’t really engaged - all talk, and very little action, as it were.

You have evangelical churches that are rising in popularity, and while a lot of people focus on the modern music or feel-good services, I think a lot to do with the popularity is community engagement. They go out and do. I don’t see that as much from the Catholic parishes here.

The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the world. Of course they are out in the community. The reason people in the pro life movement are focusing on no is first and foremost to protect the unborn but also because they know the damage that will be done to the mother spiritually and emotionally (and as we have seen lately possibly physically). They are saying no because there is another voice out there saying yes including some of those protestant denominations that you mention. The reason why they are attractive is because of exactly what you are complaining about. They have no doctrine (except Bible alone which is not found in the Bible), no rules. They profess to loving Jesus but Jesus also requires us to follow Him. Yes Jesus gave us rules. He founded the Catholic Church which has a formal earthly structure established by Christ and which continues under His authority and protection. Love requires obedience. And finally they are saying no because Jesus said no.

“Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again.” John 8:11

 

[TCEL]

Once I discovered Catholics who tried to tackle abortion from the bottom up, rather than just say “Don’t do it. It’s murder.” - it really helped shift my worldview. People who want to ban abortions without the understanding of why some people feel desperate enough to resort to it, whether poverty, domestic violence, or other lack of options - it did nothing to bring me to their side of the issue.

I can’t speak for all areas, but locally, it seems like there’s a lot of political rallying, and constant talk of banning, and praying outside Planned Parenthood - but not much work for a Mary’s Shelter, or helping unemployed/underemployed families, or women in domestic abuse situations. There’s not financial support for women who would give the baby up for adoption, but can’t afford the cost of pregnancy but make too much money for government services.

You’re right. It’s important to understand the desperation and sense of isolation that can drive a lot of women. I agree it’s off-putting when people disregard this. The wonderful thing about crisis pregnancy centers is that they do attempt to try and bring together the elements you have mentioned. They’re very practical people. I wish as much as you that they had more money. I personally prefer donating money for material assistance for women in these situations, or shelters. Abby Johnson is kind of my hero in this regard because she said that currently, we’re not really competing with Planned Parenthood if our clinics aren’t full-blown women’s health centers. And, she says, we must do it for free. Talk about big vision! But I agree with her. It’s just very difficult to organize these kinds of things.

Everyone knows that abortion ends a fetus’ life. We don’t need to be told over and over again how horrible it is, be presented with gory billboards at parish festivals**, of all places, and be faced with what seems, locally at least, and endless stream of focus on restriction, rather than prevention.

I can appreciate how large an issue abortion is, and how the valuation of life connects with so many other Catholic social justice teachings. But if other areas are like my area, I can see why young people feel driven away. There’s a fatigue to it. The communication style seems to so often focus on no, rather than reaching out to connect with others are prevent or effect change. And I think that’s what causes some young people to disconnect. It’s not abortion necessarily, it’s the feeling that the church isn’t really engaged - all talk, and very little action, as it were.

You have evangelical churches that are rising in popularity, and while a lot of people focus on the modern music or feel-good services, I think a lot to do with the popularity is community engagement. They go out and do. I don’t see that as much from the Catholic parishes here.

Another excellent observation. It can be difficult, but I believe some of the young adults need to step up and simply try to create some kind of gathering event for the other young people in the parish. NOT tooting my horn, because I’m not very good at that sort of thing, but my husband and I host a weekly bible study meeting for young adults/families in our parish. It’s very humble, but it’s a start. These things take time to take root and grow. And at least, there’s something. As it is, I actually need to go and clean up for it right now.

 

[CarmelJerome]

I see more young people active in the Church now than I did when I entered a quarter century ago.
It seems to me that symptoms are often mistaken for causes when this question is asked. The absence of continuity between multiple generations is one cause: temporal isolation is a part of the social isolation that accompanies the contextless relations and communications. Young people are locked in a non culture of pure ego - saturated consumption of unrelated and uncoordinated commentary. There is little opportunity for them to listen to the stories and experiences of those around them or those who lived in earlier centuries; they are conditioned to formlessness: how can the form of God be discerned when the form of Man is itself an utterly unintelligible concept, something they haven't experienced? The are nihilist not by argument or conviction, but by conditioned reflex.

 

[alexandratm]

You’re right. It’s important to understand the desperation and sense of isolation that can drive a lot of women. I agree it’s off-putting when people disregard this. The wonderful thing about crisis pregnancy centers is that they do attempt to try and bring together the elements you have mentioned. They’re very practical people. I wish as much as you that they had more money. I personally prefer donating money for material assistance for women in these situations, or shelters. Abby Johnson is kind of my hero in this regard because she said that currently, we’re not really competing with Planned Parenthood if our clinics aren’t full-blown women’s health centers. And, she says, we must do it for free. Talk about big vision! But I agree with her. It’s just very difficult to organize these kinds of things.

Another excellent observation. It can be difficult, but I believe some of the young adults need to step up and simply try to create some kind of gathering event for the other young people in the parish. NOT tooting my horn, because I’m not very good at that sort of thing, but my husband and I host a weekly bible study meeting for young adults/families in our parish. It’s very humble, but it’s a start. These things take time to take root and grow. And at least, there’s something. As it is, I actually need to go and clean up for it right now.

Abby Johnson is great. People rail on Planned Parenthood, but when I needed health care in college, it was the only option I could afford. When I worked at a mammogram center that also did biopsies, we had so many women come in who only had a mammogram because of Planned Parenthood - otherwise, their cancer would have been caught at a much later stage.

Recently, I was looking for a new OB-GYN, and my area has only one pro-life, pro-NFP OB-GYN. One! And I live in a large city (top 15 in the country). Crisis pregnancy centers aren’t comprehensive enough. We need more for low income women. We need more for all women.

 

[alexandratm]

You make fair points.

But the Catholic church aside, don’t parents have rules? Schools? And how long will one work if he doesn’t abide by his employer’s rules? Rules are just the way society works. It’s easy to say a given speed limit or stop sign makes no sense but imagine what it would be without them.

True, but some of those rules are easily understood why they are in place. With the Catholic church, so many of these rules enrich a person if they are understood. I know as a child, I had far more success complying with rules when they made sense to me and when I understand why my parents had certain rules.

 

[ProVobis]

True, but some of those rules are easily understood why they are in place. With the Catholic church, so many of these rules enrich a person if they are understood. I know as a child, I had far more success complying with rules when they made sense to me and when I understand why my parents had certain rules.

In that case, it becomes a sort of a circular argument. We need to know why we have to go to school in order to learn why we have rules in the first place? A lot of people don’t like the whole educational system, much less catechism, so good luck explaining why they have to get educated even on the grade school level. If the parents don’t physically drag them to school, they’re simply not going to go and they won’t learn why society or the church has rules. Try explaining why you need catechism. Or try explaining why you need to memorize multiplication tables when everyone’s got a calculator. Seems like just telling them to do it will be faster than trying to figure out reasons why they should. But what do I know, I’ve only had success in teaching kids how to read. Never had to tell them why they needed to learn how; that probably would have insulted their intelligence.

But that said, when everything else fails, pop a Baltimore Catechism into their hands. If that doesn’t answer the “why” questions, I don’t know what does.

.

 

[alexandratm]

In that case, it becomes a sort of a circular argument. We need to know why we have to go to school in order to learn why we have rules in the first place? A lot of people don’t like the whole educational system, much less catechism, so good luck explaining why they have to get educated even on the grade school level. If the parents don’t physically drag them to school, they’re simply not going to go and they won’t learn why society or the church has rules. Try explaining why you need catechism. Or try explaining why you need to memorize multiplication tables when everyone’s got a calculator. Seems like just telling them to do it will be faster than trying to figure out reasons why they should. But what do I know, I’ve only had success in teaching kids how to read. Never had to tell them why they needed to learn how; that probably would have insulted their intelligence.

But that said, when everything else fails, pop a Baltimore Catechism into their hands. If that doesn’t answer the “why” questions, I don’t know what does.

.

BBM. Why the snark? No need to get sarcastic.

You have your experiences and I have mine. We have billions of people on the planet and not all are alike. Some people, like myself and others that I’ve observed, want to know why. Others are more obedient by nature. The question was why the church was losing young people - I’ve observed firsthand poor catechesis on a multi-generational level. I’m merely explaining how that makes some people feel and react to the church.

I don’t understand the resistance to this. I’m not asking for rules to be put by the wayside - merely explained. Shouldn’t we be explaining why we give up meat on Fridays? Why you’re supposed to do some form of penance outside of Lent? We we cross ourselves a certain way? Why we oppose IVF and birth control? Some things, like ritual practices during the mass, once you understand why, it opens you up to a richer, more meaningful spiritual experience.

For example, my boyfriend joined us for a talk in RCIA which discussed the sacraments, and how they are referenced in passages of scripture, particularly in the Old Testament, form and function - really great stuff. It was something he’d never heard before, nor his parents. But he told me later how it really deepened his appreciation for the sacraments and understanding of why they are so important - that they have a Biblical basis, rather than being a ritual that the church decided to enact at some point.

Why demand blind obedience? Is it really that hard to engage with young people and explain things?

As a child, my parents explained their rules and reasonings to me. As a result, I could extrapolate from our discussions when faced with new situations, what the correct response or behavior would be. I was in very little trouble as a teen, as my parents took the time to teach me when I was small, rather than resort to “because I said so.” Shouldn’t we value intellectual engagement, rather than rote obedience?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Because the Church has not explained their teaching on homosexuality at all properly, and the Church has not expressed a vision for chaste people who are gay. This is a HUGE problem, and young people are justified in demanding a better answer from the Church on the issue of homosexuality.

 

[ProVobis]

Some people, like myself and others that I’ve observed, want to know why.

Again, I refer you to the Baltimore Catechism if the current catechism is hard to understand. It’s presented in a question-and-answer format, and easy to memorize. Why did God make me? What is the Mass? Why is the Mass in Latin? and so forth.

 

[Jerbear]

I am a 23 year old former catholic now atheist and I just wanted to say that I don’t like how you combined abortion, homosexuality, and contraception all together. I do not support abortion at all, yet I think a ban on contraception and same sex marriages is ridiculous. If you wished to just say in the poll that young people disagree with certain church teachings, I think that’d be much more accurate than just assuming all secularists who left the church support all those things.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I am a 23 year old former catholic now atheist and I just wanted to say that I don’t like how you combined abortion, homosexuality, and contraception all together. I do not support abortion at all, yet I think a ban on contraception and same sex marriages is ridiculous. If you wished to just say in the poll that young people disagree with certain church teachings, I think that’d be much more accurate than just assuming all secularists who left the church support all those things.

As a college teacher, I’ve definitely found that your views are quite common, Jerbear. Not all that many young people passionately support abortion.

 

[johnnyc176]

Because the Church has not explained their teaching on homosexuality at all properly, and the Church has not expressed a vision for chaste people who are gay. This is a HUGE problem, and young people are justified in demanding a better answer from the Church on the issue of homosexuality.

I invite you to listen to this CAL show where Jimmy Akin gives an excellent explanation of Catholic Church teaching (which of course is the teaching of Jesus) from Scripture and Tradition and why that teaching will not change.

catholic.com/radio/shows/open-forum-13503

Starting at 27:55 point.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I invite you to listen to this CAL show where Jimmy Akin gives an excellent explanation of Catholic Church teaching (which of course is the teaching of Jesus) from Scripture and Tradition and why that teaching will not change.

catholic.com/radio/shows/open-forum-13503

Starting at 27:55 point.

Johnny,

My concern isn’t about whether Jimmy Akin can explain something. Kids don’t get their understanding of the Church from Jimmy Akin. The Church needs to get the message of compassion OUT in a broad cultural way. We can’t whisper compassion in the corners, while we shout “culture war” from the pulpit and the television screen.

The Church has allowed its enemies to do its cultural Catechesis. Not a good plan.

 

[epan]

I am a 23 year old former catholic now atheist and I just wanted to say that I don’t like how you combined abortion, homosexuality, and contraception all together. I do not support abortion at all, yet I think a ban on contraception and same sex marriages is ridiculous. If you wished to just say in the poll that young people disagree with certain church teachings, I think that’d be much more accurate than just assuming all secularists who left the church support all those things.

I believe that this sentiment is common, and the divide is generational. The choice could have been made more generic and also more reflective by stating the choice as, "The Catholic Church is seen by many young people to be on the wrong side of some social justice questions, such as gay marriage, and contraception.

There is also no mention of the repeated scandals which have continued even for decades after they were known, and even with complicity by those who should have acted as moral leaders.

Perhaps a better poll question would be, “Can anyone think of a reason that any well informed young person would choose the Catholic Church, given its reputation?”

 

[johnnyc176]

w

Johnny,

My concern isn’t about whether Jimmy Akin can explain something. Kids don’t get their understanding of the Church from Jimmy Akin. The Church needs to get the message of compassion OUT in a broad cultural way. We can’t whisper compassion in the corners, while we shout “culture war” from the pulpit and the television screen.

The Church has allowed its enemies to do its cultural Catechesis. Not a good plan.

Well it doesn’t matter whether it’s jimmy Akin or somebody else. You stated you wanted a better answer and I suggest you listen for that answer. Conversion has to accompany compassion as Jesus shows us in John 8:11

“Neither do I condemn you(compassion). Go your way, and from now on do not sin again (conversion)”

What many seem to not understand is that conversion is also compassion. Jesus and His Church are also concerned with the salvation of souls.