Pope and his homilies are equally interesting

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Sarah,

I know that you know that He is knocking at your door. And I think that you know that we know that you know 😃

Answer the door. 🙂
 
This man, Pope Francis, for some reason, has me captivated.
You’re not alone! I have never experienced this feeling in any of the past papal elections that I remember (I was alive for the elections of John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, Benedict XVI and now Francis, but remember only John Paul I onwards). I respected all the popes I remember, but Francis is carving out a special place in my heart for him…
I’ll come clean here.

I don’t believe there is sufficient evidence supporting the existence of any Deity.
There isn’t any evidence to prove that God doesn’t exist either. Pascal’s wager 😉 For me at least, it turned out to be one heck of a beautiful gamble. I learned, among other things, that heaven and hell don’t start after we die. We can create hell for ourselves right here on Earth, and we can also get a small taste of heaven here too. But the most beautiful lessons learned are that obedience = freedom, humility is empowering, and God’s graces and mercy are liberally distributed for the mere asking.
But people like Pope Francis and Brother here frustrate the heck out of me. :mad:

Such good, intelligent, beautiful men, who have devoted their life to the service of a Being I simply can’t get access to
Ah but you can get access to them. You see, 15 years ago I would have been able to sign my posts “Atheist boy”. If you’d told me before then that I would return to my Catholic faith, and would have become a Benedictine Oblate, and would have had my marriage convalidated by the Church, I would have given myself a heart attack from laughing too hard. It’s notable to keep in mind too, that I was trained as a scientist and worked as a chemist for many years too… so I have a very cartesian mind as well. Never thought back then that I also had a spiritual side.
Bible bashing fundamentalists are good for a giggle.
But we must never lose sight that they are also God’s children, and “there but for the grace of God go I”. The zeal of the newly converted knows no limits. Been there, done that!
Extremists of every kind of believer are just dangerous.
True, but also God’s children. We must pray that they come 'round.
But beautiful, intelligent, kind men like Pope Francis and Brother here do make me wonder am I missing something.

It’s people of faith like these that do, honestly, give me pause.

But then I give myself a shake and it’s all good again

Sarah
If you’re here, dear Sarah, it’s because you’re searching for something greater than yourself, and that’s a beautiful thing because it shows that God is already working on you and showing you His grace (even though many of us here probably do drive you crazy as well).

You are in my prayers. May you find the God that has already found you 😉
 
:rotfl:

Actually, he personally invited them to serve at his mass. It’s the first time that religious have been invited to serve that mass. It’s always done by the diocesan seminarians. He wanted the Observant Franciscans, because they are the ones who live in the original mother house of the Franciscan Oder.

He also invited the Superior General of the Jesuits and the Superior General of the Franciscans to be among the cardinals who concelebrated. Neither of these men are bishops. It’s the first time that religious have been asked to concelebrate. He has now appointed them the President and Vice President of the Council on Religious Life. I believe that’s the right term. It will be a Jesuit and a Franciscan who will be leading the superiors general of the different religious orders around the world. This is going to be interesting. The media did not say much about this. I believe that the media does not understand the importance of this move. I was speaking with a very good friend of mine who is a holy and devout secular priest. He didn’t understand why this was important. Many outside of religious life would not understand.
I did not know that, thank you for sharing it. It brought tears to my eyes, as I do get the importance. I have three children and all the things Pope Francis has done so far :thumbsup:gives me much more hope in our Church. I believe our Church and the world will be better for it. I hope Pope Francis lives a long healthy life.
 
I hope Pope Francis lives a long healthy life.
It did occur to me that Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI could be blessed with longevity.

Pope Francis could, when he reaches his mid eighties, decide to follow the footsteps of his predecessor and resign.

We could have a situation where we have three men alive who held/hold the Papacy.

That’s one heck of a Back Office 😃

Sarah x 🙂
 
😃

I have never been interested in the Papacy.

I didn’t know anything about Popes until two years ago when I came here.

This man, Pope Francis, for some reason, has me captivated.

There is something about him that I find absolutely absorbing and fascinating.

I’ll come clean here.

I don’t believe there is sufficient evidence supporting the existence of any Deity.

But people like Pope Francis and Brother here frustrate the heck out of me. :mad:

Such good, intelligent, beautiful men, who have devoted their life to the service of a Being I simply can’t get access to :mad:
I’ve never tried to gain access to God. If I were made of pure logic, I would still be a Catholic. At the end of the day, what would I lose? However, if there is a God and I did not worship him, I’d have a lot to lose. That’s if I were made of pure logic.

Fortunately for us, the human mind has several domains. One of them is the affective domain. I have loved and been loved with great intensity. I wasn’t born a friar. I was a widowed dad who raised two children alone. They’re beautiful adults. In fact, my daughter is getting married Apr 6. Daddy, Brother, will be walking her down the aisle. I promised to wear a Roman Collar instead of a habit. Two us wearing floor length skirts would be a bit much.

In any case, I can never forget love. I know that it’s an emotion, but not always. As a single widowed dad, there were times when I chose to love when I wanted to be angry. I wanted to be angry because I had been left alone with two little kids and I didn’t know what to do and had no backup person. I just wanted to tell the kids to go away and close my door. But I chose to leave the door open and listen to their silly complaints or deal with their moods and more.

Each step of the way I kept repeating what St. Maximilian Kolbe, the great Franciscan martyr of the 20th century said, “Forget not love.” That line got me threw single fatherhood.

One has to ask himself, where does love come from? What does it really mean? Why do we love when it hurts to do so? I can’t deny the existence of love, but I can’t answer all the questions either. I truly believe that questions are not an accident. They exist to draw us beyond ourselves. They exist to move us to transcend. Transcend into what? There’s the mystery. The only person who has been able to give me a satisfactory answer is Jesus of Nazareth. If they ever find the body, I will have lost nothing, because I have loved, been loved and understood love.
You’re not alone! I have never experienced this feeling in any of the past papal elections that I remember (I was alive for the elections of John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, Benedict XVI and now Francis, but remember only John Paul I onwards). I respected all the popes I remember, but Francis is carving out a special place in my heart for him…
You have a lot of company. Around here priests are reporting record numbers of confessions for this last week of Lent compared to the same week last year. I visited a priest friend of mine today. His parish had 500 confessions last Saturday. They had to call the neighboring parish for help. Another parish had to dust off some retired priest, There were five lines for confession this Saturday. Everyone on line was talking about Pope Francis’ sermon on mercy.
It did occur to me that Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI could be blessed with longevity.
Blessed by whom? 😃
Pope Francis could, when he reaches his mid eighties, decide to follow the footsteps of his predecessor and resign.
We could have a situation where we have three men alive who held/hold the Papacy.
That little monastery is turning into a nursing home for former popes.
 
Benedictine Popes – all were monks and all lived as monks while popes
Pope Adeodatus II
Pope Celestine V (famous)
Pope Clement VI
Pope Gregory XVI
Pope Paschal II
Pope Pius VII
Pope Urban V

Dominican Popes – all were friars and lives and dressed as friars

Pope Benedict XI
Pope Benedict XIII
Pope Innocent V
Pope Pius V – His successors loved him so much that they designed a white cassock with shoulder cape of the same shade of white as the Dominican habit.

Franciscan Popes – they were friars, lived like friars and imposed the Franciscan way on the cardinals.

Pope Clement XIV – created the electoral college using the rule of St. Francis’ as the model. The pope is still elected the same way that the Franciscan superior general is electeed.
Pope Nicholas IV
Pope Sixtus IV
Pope Sixtus V
This answers a question that came up today when I saw that Papa Francesco wasn’t going to move into the papal apartments in the palace just quite yet. I’m assuming he’ll defer doing so as long as possible. I could imagine him smiling bemusedly at the thought that he would release himself from his vow of poverty.
 
Benedictine Popes – all were monks and all lived as monks while popes
Pope Adeodatus II
Pope Celestine V (famous)
Pope Clement VI
Pope Gregory XVI
Pope Paschal II
Pope Pius VII
Pope Urban V

Dominican Popes – all were friars and lives and dressed as friars

Pope Benedict XI
Pope Benedict XIII
Pope Innocent V
Pope Pius V – His successors loved him so much that they designed a white cassock with shoulder cape of the same shade of white as the Dominican habit.

Franciscan Popes – they were friars, lived like friars and imposed the Franciscan way on the cardinals.

Pope Clement XIV – created the electoral college using the rule of St. Francis’ as the model. The pope is still elected the same way that the Franciscan superior general is electeed.
Pope Nicholas IV
Pope Sixtus IV
Pope Sixtus V
This is awesome. Thanks for posting it, fratello!

May I ask why (if there is an explanation) the new orders seem to give a good bunch of Popes, and then peter out (pun intended :D)?
 
This answers a question that came up today when I saw that Papa Francesco wasn’t going to move into the papal apartments in the palace just quite yet. I’m assuming he’ll defer doing so as long as possible. I could imagine him smiling bemusedly at the thought that he would release himself from his vow of poverty.
Why would a religious want to leave his vows, unless he’s leaving religious life?
This is awesome. Thanks for posting it, fratello!

May I ask why (if there is an explanation) the new orders seem to give a good bunch of Popes, and then peter out (pun intended :D)?
Several things seem to have happened at the same time. Thanks to the Jesuits, the diocesan clergy began to get a good education. Prior to that it was hit and miss. Diocesan priests became more structured and respect for them increased. As this happened, the number of men who responded to the call to the priesthood, without the religious life, increased. After a while, the number of secular bishops and cardinals far outnumbered the regular bishops and cardinals.
 
Several things seem to have happened at the same time. Thanks to the Jesuits, the diocesan clergy began to get a good education. Prior to that it was hit and miss. Diocesan priests became more structured and respect for them increased. As this happened, the number of men who responded to the call to the priesthood, without the religious life, increased. After a while, the number of secular bishops and cardinals far outnumbered the regular bishops and cardinals.
Thank you!👍
 
Mass with Pope Francis: moving from HIGH Church to LOW and humble Church! What a blessing that we are encountering Jesus without trappings!
At our meeting today with Pope Francis, I noted that is still wearing his older black shoes. I pray that he keeps them as a sign for us all
So long, Papal ermine and fancy lace! Welcome, simple cassock, and hopefully, ordinary black shoes! St. Francis must be overjoyed!!
from Cardinal Mahony’s tweets on March 16.

I only hope that not everyone confuses being humble with needing to be “low church”.

highly humble and high church is the way to go.
 
from Cardinal Mahony’s tweets on March 16.

I only hope that not everyone confuses being humble with needing to be “low church”.

highly humble and high church is the way to go.
I believe that people are confusing the signals. Part of the problem is that we have a highly clericalized Catholicism. During the last 200 years or so, the religious life has taken a back seat to the priesthood. Priests who belong to religious order, who are in fact both priests and consecrated religious, have become so involved in pastoral matters that the religious dimension often goes undetected by the world. When you look at a priest who is a religious and a diocesan priest you should be able to see a difference, unfortunately, we don’t.

Now we have a pope who is also a faithful Jesuit and who lives according to the spirit of St. Ignatius. But instead of saying “Oh look, we have a religious for a pope,” we’re going around saying, “Oh look, we have someone who hates the papal trappings.” The latter statement opens the imagination for all kinds of changes that will probably never happen.

The rude awakening is going to come when the pope turns out to hold the same positions as every pope before him on all of the fundamental issues of morality and faith. We can already see several signs.

The staff at the Vatican made all kinds of plans for him and he has simply said that he does not need all the things that they have placed before him. There is usually a lot of pressure on popes to maintain the status quo. It takes energy and authority to say, “No thank you to the curia.”

We see something else. He is very orthodox on all of the moral issues of the day. He has no problems saying so. When he starts to speak on these issues, the honeymoon with the “humble pope” will come to an end. People will discover that religious poverty and simplicity does not equal infidelity to the faith and the Church.
 
We see something else. He is very orthodox on all of the moral issues of the day. He has no problems saying so.
You are right. Many people, both ‘traditionalist’ and ‘liberal’ do seem to wrongly equate use of symbols and liturgical trappings with doctrinal stance.

We are Catholic because of what we believe, not because of the tools we choose to use to try to convey what we believe. The ‘trappings’ of the Church are simply utilitarian ‘tools’ to allow us to transmit the Word of God to humanity. More trappings does not equate to theologically ‘more conservative’, less trappings does not equate to theologically ‘more liberal’. Tools should be chosen according to the prevailing circumstances and times the Church finds itself in.

On another point, there are a great many Catholics who do not see the need for lots of the trappings, who would prefer a simpler, less formal Church, a ‘poorer’ Church, and one that reaches out more to the poor, yet at the same time we hold orthodox views in areas of faith and morals.

We should not assume that those people who want a simpler, humbler, ‘poorer’ Church are inclined to be ‘liberal’ on issues of faith and morals.
 
We should not assume that those people who want a simpler, humbler, ‘poorer’ Church are inclined to be ‘liberal’ on issues of faith and morals.
Good gravy no!

If that were the case we would have to count as radicals:

Francis of Assisi
Clare of Assisi
Anthony of Padua
Dominic Guzman
Teresa of Avila
John of the Cross
Ignatius of Loyola
John Vianney
Francis de Sales
John Bosco
Vincent de Paul
Louise de Marillac
Elizabeth Ann Seton
Charles de Facould
Teresa of Calcutta
Catherine Doherty
John XXIII
John Paul II
Maximilian Kolbe

Did I miss anyone?

All of these men and women were committed to a poorer Church.

The conflict between liberals and radical traditionalists concerning poverty lies in the fact that both sides are looking at poverty through political lenses.

Francis and Dominic, who are the great patriarchs of the mendicant movement taught the Church that Holy Poverty is not about politics. It’s about openness. One creates space in his life for God and brother. One begins with material things, but detachment does not stop at material things. The next level is harder than the first. One has to detach from one’s opinion and self-importance.
 
You are right. Many people, both ‘traditionalist’ and ‘liberal’ do seem to wrongly equate use of symbols and liturgical trappings with doctrinal stance.

We are Catholic because of what we believe, not because of the tools we choose to use to try to convey what we believe. The ‘trappings’ of the Church are simply utilitarian ‘tools’ to allow us to transmit the Word of God to humanity. More trappings does not equate to theologically ‘more conservative’, less trappings does not equate to theologically ‘more liberal’. Tools should be chosen according to the prevailing circumstances and times the Church finds itself in.

On another point, there are a great many Catholics who do not see the need for lots of the trappings, who would prefer a simpler, less formal Church, a ‘poorer’ Church, and one that reaches out more to the poor, yet at the same time we hold orthodox views in areas of faith and morals.

We should not assume that those people who want a simpler, humbler, ‘poorer’ Church are inclined to be ‘liberal’ on issues of faith and morals.
Well, it is true that symbols can be abused and devolve into semi-political rallying calls. Liberals will say we need a more “compassionate Church,” and they will point to the compassion of Christ. There is a genuine Christ-like compassion, but then there is also the shibboleth of these Catholics by which what they really mean is accepting sin and filth, if not overtly then at least by tone and emphasis and in other, murkier areas.

Then you have the shibboleth of “tradition” used by radical* traditionalists, by which they would strictly limit the Church to the year 1940 or so. The other day I was pointing out that it is a rather useless practice to kneel at the Epistle in a Low Mass, but someone was arguing that it should be done as a matter of honoring tradition. I said that is a pointless and useless tradition and nothing particularly good arises from it, and it only serves to weaken the meaning of kneeling at, say, the Canon.

We should not underestimate the power of symbols to make or destroy catechetical effectiveness, first-instance evangelism, and popular piety. We go through phases of popularity of this or that, but the need for symbolism never goes away.

The difficulty of these terms and symbols is not their true meaning, but by their popularly fancied meaning.

*I say radical because most normal traditionalists (and by this I do not include Sedevacantists, who are schismatics and, now, blameless children of schismatics) are quite orthodox
 
Well, it is true that symbols can be abused and devolve into semi-political rallying calls. Liberals will say we need a more “compassionate Church,” and they will point to the compassion of Christ. There is a genuine Christ-like compassion, but then there is also the shibboleth of these Catholics by which what they really mean is accepting sin and filth, if not overtly then at least by tone and emphasis and in other, murkier areas.
While there is merit in what you say, I would strongly argue that there is no conflict whatsoever between wanting a more compassionate Church (and I think we do need this) and not accepting sin. We can, and should be compassionate to all people, no matter what sins they have committed. We are called to love the sinner (unconditionally) while at the same time rejecting the sin. As to filth, I’m not sure what you mean, I would like to think that this isn’t referring to the actual sinners, as to regard sinners as such is in direct contradiction to the teachings of Christ.
We should not underestimate the power of symbols to make or destroy catechetical effectiveness, first-instance evangelism, and popular piety. We go through phases of popularity of this or that, but the need for symbolism never goes away.
That is true, and symbols can indeed be powerful tools. But like all tools at our disposal they should be used (or shelved) according to the prevailing circumstances the Church finds itself in. We should think, “This is our message, who are we trying to convince and evangelise, which symbols will help us evangelise these people, taking into account the culture and mindset of these people, and other external circumstances” and then choose our symbols accordingly.
The difficulty of these terms and symbols is not their true meaning, but by their popularly fancied meaning.
But it is all about perception. Symbols are simply a man-made language designed to communicate meaning. Evangelisation is best done in a language that those you’re trying to evangelise will find understandable.

We should not show too much attachment to such symbols, as these symbols are simply a man-made language. Should we be so attached to such earthly things?
I say radical because most normal traditionalists (and by this I do not include Sedevacantists, who are schismatics and, now, blameless children of schismatics) are quite orthodox
On that we will have to disagree, the SSPX and Sedevacantists are not ‘normal’ traditionalists. They are schismatics and are guilty of heresy. Do they respect the infallibility of all documents of the Sacred Magisterium of our Church? It is heresy not to do so. There’s nothing orthodox about heresy.
 
While there is merit in what you say, I would strongly argue that there is no conflict whatsoever between wanting a more compassionate Church (and I think we do need this) and not accepting sin. We can, and should be compassionate to all people, no matter what sins they have committed. We are called to love the sinner (unconditionally) while at the same time rejecting the sin. As to filth, I’m not sure what you mean, I would like to think that this isn’t referring to the actual sinners, as to regard sinners as such is in direct contradiction to the teachings of Christ.
I think we are saying the same thing. There is a true meaning of compassion, and a false one. The true meaning is that we are always ready to accept true contrition. The fake meaning is the National catholic Register type, which means accepting sinfulness and immorality. We must do the former, and cannot do the latter.
On that we will have to disagree, the SSPX and Sedevacantists are not ‘normal’ traditionalists. They are schismatics and are guilty of heresy. Do they respect the infallibility of all documents of the Sacred Magisterium of our Church? It is heresy not to do so. There’s nothing orthodox about heresy.
I know, I think you misread me. I said I do not include sedes in my definition of normal traditionalists. Still not sure of the SSPX, looking more negative day by day.

Symbolism greatly interests me. My own personal opinion is that all symbolism used by the Church should have at least a dash of otherworldliness and oldness. People associate these things with the Church. I don’t think all symbols have to be Baroque depictions of saints in ecstatic poses with calligraphic Latin mottos underneath, but, in principle I do believe all ecclesiastical symbols should have a timeless, tasteful, and still radical look to them. A favorite symbol of mine is that of the Holy See: the papal tiara with infulae over the crossed Keys to the Kingdom. There is radical symbolism, real symbolism, some apparent and some not so apparent. The style is timeless but not ancient or outdated. That leads me to another idea of mine, that, if an object or symbol ever looks outdated in the future, it was never any good to begin with. Good design–a Romanesque church built in the eighth century–always looks good, while bad design–overly sappy polychrome images–always looks off, even when it’s new. I digress…
 
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