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seekerz
Guest
I see. No problem
- Status
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franklinstower
Guest
I know you are just being sarcastic. Like I said-- if a Christian needs more money as a motivation to accomplish more then they are not working for God, but for money. And if a Christian gets bored with free time then their spiritual life is not very good.The only way this works is if we all have the SAME amount of income. If we have the SAME amount of income, the ambitious sacrificers among us will be de-motivated. Tax revenues from the top half of income earners will drop dramatically until the bills to run social programs can no longer be paid. The only things we’ll be able to afford will be basic food, clothing, and shelter, but at least pollution and consumption will decrease. But what will we do with all our spare time since there’s little MOTIVATION to be industrious?? Better hand out free birth control, abortion, legalize drugs, and destroy marriage so people can swing. People will need something to pass the time! LOL. Sprinkle in some gender confusion for the kiddies and watch the population fall faster. Now I can understand how the atheists want to elect Bernie Sanders. LOL! But it boggles the mind how the religious faithful can support Bernie. The communists will outlaw religion. Here it comes. Yay! Go Pope! Oh, wait. No. Now I’m rooting for the wrong team.
I think people should be allowed to accumulate wealth though-- ***after certain basic need are met for everyone. ***Universal health care, a minimum wage that you can raise a simple but dignified household on, quality education for all who want it.
In the areas of industry all the profits that can be accumulated should be-- after these industries have invested in regulations that completely minimize health problems for surrounding populations. No more cancer and asthma for kids and adults who live in areas where power plants pump toxic fumes into the air while CEO’s and shareholders get richer and richer on profits made from not placing human lives above profit. No more reconrd profits for companies that employ child labor in third world countries-- children!!
A lot of people don’t want wealth-- I don’t (mainly because I don’t feel called to it) and secondarily because I believe that if I have more than I really need I am responsible for the deaths and sickness of those who don’t have enough. Let the people who want to live a simple dignified life do so, and let everyone else who wants to accumulate wealth (for reasons that are none of my business) do so after certain basic needs are met for all.
All I want is enough and the rest of my time I want to spend in prayer and in service of humanity. Lets let people who want this simple life- a life Jesus seemed to be in favor of- live it with dignity. In my opinion to doubt this possibility is to doubt God and the world he created which was designed for our benefit…
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ManOnFire
Guest
That’s beautiful. We already lived through it. It was called the baby boomer generation. The agnostic progressives in control of politics, academics, and the media won’t stand for “overpopulation” in the name of a god for which there is no scientific proof. Yes, large families necessitated mandatory sacrifice thanks to belief in God and little to no birth control for many families, which created a deeply meaningful life existence for many, but the deeply meaningful existence evaporates without the large family (notice society’s emphasis on shallow amusements), unless we are called to help others in the name of political correctness, but there’s no reason to continue with religion according to those in power if political correctness can be made into the unofficial law where dissenters are ostracized for not towing the party line. So much for freedom. Just visit the blogs and comment sections of popular political articles if you want proof.
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franklinstower
Guest
^^^^^^^
I cant relate to any of that or see how it has anything to do with what I am talking about. Again I am not pushing policy on anyone-- I am saying as Christians we have to make sure the way we think and why we think it is in harmony with Christ, it isn’t by the way-- you and I both need profound conversion of heart and mind… We need a savior- thank goodness we have one. God bless you and your family.
I cant relate to any of that or see how it has anything to do with what I am talking about. Again I am not pushing policy on anyone-- I am saying as Christians we have to make sure the way we think and why we think it is in harmony with Christ, it isn’t by the way-- you and I both need profound conversion of heart and mind… We need a savior- thank goodness we have one. God bless you and your family.
J
JimG
Guest
Well, I think your economic system needs to be fleshed out in more detail before it can really be evaluated.
People should be allowed to accumulate wealth, but only after basic needs are met for everyone. Business will be allowed to make a profit, but only after all possible pollution and health problems are eliminated.
I have to ask whether such conditions would be applied nationally or globally. If they are applied globally, then developed nations cannot accumulate wealth for individuals or companies until global needs and global goals are all met.
And whether applied nationally or globally, it would take a strong, perhaps tyrannical, central government to ensure that the conditions are followed.
Not only that, but the very preconditions may have the effect of decreasing output globally, and might make it more rather than less difficult to eradicate poverty.
They will also, of course, have the effect of decreasing wealth accumulation, and thus investment, on both an individual, a local, and a global level. And it is capital accumulation and capital investment that plays the greatest role in bringing developing nations out of poverty. Yes, it even brings individuals out of poverty and dependence.
There are very many monasteries which practice the virtues of poverty, chastity, obedience, and stability, and live a simple life. They also produce goods to support themselves; and they have to make a profit in doing so. That sort of sounds like the model you are proposing. But I have a difficult time believing that Jesus has proposed such a highly regulated economic system for everyone.
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franklinstower
Guest
^^^^^^
Any specific proposal of how to go about this has not been the thrust of my arguments at all on this thread.
What I am saying is that many people don’t really want to make any sacrifices for the betterment of people in poverty- there is no real will to do it. If there were the will to do it in all of us Christians we could find a way and I don’t think it would be that hard. I don’t care how we go about it but frankly the how does not matter because it is the will that is lacking in the majority of us. This is where the problem resides and it is here that there is need for conversion of heart.
God could show us the way IF we really wanted to be shown. We already have the answers- we just don’t want them.
Any specific proposal of how to go about this has not been the thrust of my arguments at all on this thread.
What I am saying is that many people don’t really want to make any sacrifices for the betterment of people in poverty- there is no real will to do it. If there were the will to do it in all of us Christians we could find a way and I don’t think it would be that hard. I don’t care how we go about it but frankly the how does not matter because it is the will that is lacking in the majority of us. This is where the problem resides and it is here that there is need for conversion of heart.
God could show us the way IF we really wanted to be shown. We already have the answers- we just don’t want them.
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franklinstower
Guest
^^^^^^^^
I just need to add that in at least two of my posts I have made it very clear that I am not advocating that people do what I am doing- did you read them? I am advocating that all of us actually do what God is calling us to do and that we be close enough to God to hear that call.
I just need to add that in at least two of my posts I have made it very clear that I am not advocating that people do what I am doing- did you read them? I am advocating that all of us actually do what God is calling us to do and that we be close enough to God to hear that call.
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3_Dog_Night
Guest
It is one thing to help someone (on a short-term basis) who is struggling with a job loss, illness, death of a wage earner, etc. It is one thing to have social service programs locally through a church or community center. It is one thing to teach people “how to fish”.
It is something entirely different to have generation upon generation of welfare families – each baby brings additional funding. Section 8 housing, free health care (i.e., Medicaid), food stamps, all sorts of governmental social programs.
Disability? Yep. Much of America is “disable”. Yes, it is true that there are those who are truly disable and cannot support themselves. But look at how “disability claims” have taken off as “employment” and “employment opportunities” have dried up and vanished.
I have a family member who thought the disability system was just great until she realized that she had worked 25 to 30 years as a teacher and her pension was less than a disabled person who had worked < 5 years (and this was being paid for with tax dollars).
So why should I work to have at least half of what I earn taken away from me (add it up … federal tax, state tax, city income tax, school district tax, sales tax, real estate tax, gasoline tax) and redistributed … while others live off the sweat of my brow.
Why?
So what happens when the “producers, workers and savers” are done? What happens when the incentive to produce, achieve, earn and invent is gone? That is the system our government has created with its social (“liberal and progressive”) policies.
Does anyone know what happened to the welfare rolls in Maine when the state government enacted work requirements for those who received welfare? Look it up.
The monster of “entitlements” that our country has created is not sustainable. At some point, the system is going to run out of “other people’s money” … and then what will be left to redistribute? Just print more money? Really!
One of these days the EBT cards are going to stop working. Then what?
It is something entirely different to have generation upon generation of welfare families – each baby brings additional funding. Section 8 housing, free health care (i.e., Medicaid), food stamps, all sorts of governmental social programs.
Disability? Yep. Much of America is “disable”. Yes, it is true that there are those who are truly disable and cannot support themselves. But look at how “disability claims” have taken off as “employment” and “employment opportunities” have dried up and vanished.
I have a family member who thought the disability system was just great until she realized that she had worked 25 to 30 years as a teacher and her pension was less than a disabled person who had worked < 5 years (and this was being paid for with tax dollars).
So why should I work to have at least half of what I earn taken away from me (add it up … federal tax, state tax, city income tax, school district tax, sales tax, real estate tax, gasoline tax) and redistributed … while others live off the sweat of my brow.
Why?
So what happens when the “producers, workers and savers” are done? What happens when the incentive to produce, achieve, earn and invent is gone? That is the system our government has created with its social (“liberal and progressive”) policies.
Does anyone know what happened to the welfare rolls in Maine when the state government enacted work requirements for those who received welfare? Look it up.
The monster of “entitlements” that our country has created is not sustainable. At some point, the system is going to run out of “other people’s money” … and then what will be left to redistribute? Just print more money? Really!
One of these days the EBT cards are going to stop working. Then what?
B
billcu1
Guest
The only thing I really see wrong with your situation as you are describing it is #3 and #4. We don’t own anything and need to give back. I am not quite sure what the Pope’s idea of a utopia is. We pay skilled workers more. People are to work, get education (which does need fixing) or if they’re not making enough go into business for themselves or move to a better area. These things are being ignored. I am not saying this is perfect, and changes are needed there are poor. Jesus said “The poor you will always have”. Why? I don’t see why that can’t change. But it will be a while
God bless. And welcome holy father!
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
“Wealth” is an extremely relative thing. Do I want wealth? Certainly. I need to ensure that my spouse is taken care of if I die before her. I would like to ensure that she gets the best healthcare in a system that’s rapidly becoming two-tiered) I would like to ensure that my grandchildren attend good (preferably Catholic) universities. I would like to help my grown children in their family formation needs. And, I would like to create investment opportunities for my children so they can help their children and grandchildren.
I also like making donations to the Church and its charitable organizations. You can’t do that if you don’t have the money to do it; money that’s over and above keeping oneself fed, clothed and housed.
Do I have it in me to acquire billions? Of course not. But I would if I could. Look at Tom Monaghan. He made a billion dollars selling Domino’s pizza. But he’s spending it all on Catholic education and other charitable works. Nothing is wrong with that.
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billcu1
Guest
Wow that’s good to hear. I didn’t know the Domino’s owner was a philanthropist AND giving to the Church. Good to hear! Maybe one should buy stock.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I think Monaghan sold controlling interest in Domino’s to some consortium or other. That’s why he has the money to do what he’s doing.
He’s not the only wealthy Catholic man like that. He started a sort of “order” or “club” of very wealthy individuals called “Legatus”. Prayer and giving are the fundamental purposes of Legatus. But there were people like that before Monaghan. In itself, wealth is not an evil thing. It’s how we get it and what we do with it.
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billcu1
Guest
I agree
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dmar198
Guest
I don’t think so. Let’s take a look at your examples:
First, I don’t think he has called for Heavy regulation. In Laudato Si 197, he speaks about the kinds of evils that need to be regulated: “If in a given region the state does not carry out its responsibilities, some business groups can…[go] to the point of tolerating different forms of organized crime, human trafficking, the drug trade and violence, all of which become very difficult to eradicate.”
Preventing such crimes are actually pretty light restrictions. Where did he propose heavy regulations?
First, redistribution has been called for by several other popes. For example, Pope Benedict said, “Economic life…needs just laws and forms of redistribution governed by politics.” Caritas in Veritate 37. But Benedict’s idea of redistribution is one which I think most conservatives would praise. For example, in Caritas in Veritate 33 Benedict suggests that cutting tariffs on poor countries redistributes wealth because their products can then get “a foothold in the markets of rich countries.” The poor can sell some of their goods in rich markets in exchange for greater wealth. That’s an example of wealth redistribution based on a free market.
And it helps show that Pope Francis is not going beyond his predecessors in calling for redistribution.
“[T]here is urgent need of a true world political authority, as my predecessor Blessed John XXIII indicated some years ago.” Pope Benedict, Caritas in Veritate 67.
Do you think Pope Francis has called for something more than these two popes did in this matter? If so, what more has he asked for?
Can you give one quote where Pope Francis did this?
To me, a person can criticize greed a thousand times without criticizing capitalism. And I think that is what the pope has done. To my knowledge, in all his criticisms of greed he has never once said capitalism was to blame, but focused on greed itself and lack of regulations. But people have started saying that he conflates this with capitalism, when he has not done so in any quote that I’m aware of. What do you think?
Pope Benedict did: “[There are] growing instances of inequality between rich and poor, [caused] by the prevalence of a selfish and individualistic mindset which also finds expression in an unregulated financial capitalism.” source
Can you give a quote where Pope Francis has said something, especially on economics, that his predecessors did not say?
That seems confusing to me, but perhaps it isn’t: one can praise a bad man occasionally, if he does something good, and I suppose it is therefore likely that the popes have praised socialist states when they have done something good. But I’d like to see even one example where they praised a state for doing something socialist.
That is a fascinating quote, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a pope use the word “socialism” in a positive context before. But he does not say socialism is good, only that in some respects it is good. As your other quotes show, he rejects socialism for the same reasons his predecessors did.
Pope Francis has also rejected socialism, pretty bluntly: “The Marxist ideology is wrong.” And: “[Regarding spillover economics,] I was not, I repeat, speaking from a technical point of view but according to the Church’s social doctrine. This does not mean being a Marxist.” source
Re: the other quotes you provided, from St. John 23, Bl. Paul 6, St. John Paul 2, and Benedict 16, I think those quotes are great, but Pope Francis has been saying the same things.
John 23 criticized Communism for being materialist, basing man’s value on his ability to produce, and restricting freedom too much. Pope Francis has criticized those same things.
Paul 6 criticized socialism because of the ideologies from which it originates. This seems to be a reference to Marxism, which Pope Francis has also rejected.
John Paul 2 criticized socialism for denying free will and treating persons as objects. Pope Francis has criticized those things too, especially when he talks about the “throw-away culture.”
Benedict 16 criticized socialism for regarding people as objects, controlling everything in the economy, and for not practicing subsidiarity or allowing private economic decisions. Pope Francis has said the same things.
So where has Pope Francis differed from his predecessors? I search in vain for one example.
C
CatholicKnight3
Guest
This country does more in regards to charity and relief efforts than every single country in the world COMBINED. The FREE MARKET has had countless BENEFITS to humanity.
Socialism (pure socialism is communism. period) is an absolute disaster in ALL countries that use it. Venezuela is an utter disgrace. You should see what socialism has done to that country. Hugo Chavez, an evil man and a supposed Catholic, once claimed that capitalism is the reason there is no life on Mars.
I would like someone to please list all of the things socialist countries have given to the world that benefits humanity. I will be happy to list all of the things the free market has given to humanity. From medicine to air conditioning (something this Pope has spoken out about.)
We may think Christ would be a socialist. Well, Christ is and will always be about FREE WILL. Humans being FORCED to REDISTRIBUTE WEALTH has no glory. There is nothing altruistic about it. It takes away incentives from the human spirit.
There is a reason why communist countries BUILD WALLS to keep people IN. There is a reason why mass numbers of people risk their lives to GET HERE from their SOCIALIST DISASTERS.
This POPE shaking hands and getting all friendly with this lying disgrace of a president makes me sick. Now, all of a sudden with Christians being slaughtered around the world is most concerned about the polar ice caps melting when they are not melting? Have you read about the latest in what muslims did to Christians in Pakistan? I will try to find it for you.
Socialism is not the answer. It is a disgrace. I am sick of the WORLD blaming American greed for everything. You want to talk about GREED? FIne. I am in total agreement that GREED is a MORTAL SIN.
However, trying to LEGISLATE CHARITY is NOT what Christ spoke of. That, was always why our FREE WILL was such a gift. It is the essence of the GREATER GLORY OF GOD.
The environment AGW INDUSTRY has is a 1.5 trillion dollar INDUSTRY. That, along with everything else concerns me greatly. I am sorry for rambling.
I just need to get this off of my chest. Forgive me if I offended anyone. I certainly did not want to.
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franklinstower
Guest
at least half of what I earn taken away from me (add it up … federal tax, state tax, city income tax, school district tax, sales tax, real estate tax, gasoline tax) and redistributed … while others live off the sweat of my brow.
Why?
So what happens when the “producers, workers and savers” are done? What happens when the incentive to produce, achieve, earn and invent is gone? That is the system our government has created with its social (“liberal and progressive”) policies.
Does anyone know what happened to the welfare rolls in Maine when the state government enacted work requirements for those who received welfare? Look it up.
The monster of “entitlements” that our country has created is not sustainable. At some point, the system is going to run out of “other people’s money” … and then what will be left to redistribute? Just print more money? Really!
One of these days the EBT cards are going to stop working. Then what?
Its OK to have the intensity you have on these subjects especially when thinking about the people who really do abuse the system and worse the victims of parents who abused the system and were raised being “taught” to do the same.
Anger on this issue I get-- what I don’t get is wanting to cut all programs like it because of those who abuse them. (I am not implying that you would want to by the way)
In my line of work I meet a very good cross section of the population, I have clients that are very, very wealthy and I have people just pulling in 500000 a year or so, and I’ve got middle class people— and then there are the people at the bottom. I have met people who abuse the system but I have also met a lot of people who really do need the assistance or they will end up on the street or worse.
Some of the people I have been fortunate enough to know have mental illnesses and honestly cannot hold down jobs and they will never be able to do so in their whole life. I just don’t want people who really cannot support themselves to end up on the street. I have always thought that the irony of the abuse of benefits situation is that we cannot afford to investigate each case to ensure that it is legitimate.
Surely if we can put a man on the moon we can figure out a way to weed out the abuse without cutting benefits for those in real need but if we cant then we should err on the side of caution in favor of those who really need the help.
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franklinstower
Guest
I have to disagree. I think my grandmother as a Christian is morally responsible to be generous with the employees that she had especially the illegal immigrants (if she would have even hired them while thinking seriously about morals) but also in the electrical end of her business. The unnecessary accumulation of wealth really would not have been there had she paid living wages. She would still be wealthy-- just less so and everyone who ever worked for her would have more quality of life.The only thing I really see wrong with your situation as you are describing it is #3 and #4. We don’t own anything and need to give back. I am not quite sure what the Pope’s idea of a utopia is. We pay skilled workers more. People are to work, get education (which does need fixing) or if they’re not making enough go into business for themselves or move to a better area. These things are being ignored. I am not saying this is perfect, and changes are needed there are poor. Jesus said “The poor you will always have”. Why? I don’t see why that can’t change. But it will be a while
God bless. And welcome holy father!
Serious question here and I will not refute it as I am just curious – Do you really think Jesus would want her to accumulate wealth in the way she did?
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3_Dog_Night
Guest
franklinstower, It doesn’t matter whether I think the programs should be continued or not. It doesn’t matter whether I (or you or anyone else) feels strongly about these issues. It doesn’t matter whether there are people who are needy and impoverished and have no other means of support. And this is why none of these things (above) matter:
The various entitlement programs will eventually collapse under their own weight. Why? It all comes down to mathematics. **When “the takers” far outnumber “the producers” the system is not sustainable. What cannot be sustained won’t be sustained. **
It won’t matter whether people are truly “needy” or not. It won’t matter whether people are homeless or digging through trash bins for food. Our country is printing and borrowing trillions of dollars … and at some point the chickens are going to come home to roost.
What is the extent of the unfunded liabilities in this country? Is it somewhere around 200 trillion dollars? How many people are entirely out of the workforce/ unemployed? Is it somewhere around 94 million? Out of a US population of what? 310 or 320 million? And how many million of these individuals are children/ minors? What percentage of the people in the US are on some sort of government hand-out? What is the ratio of those who work to support those who don’t – is it 3:1? is it 2:1? Is is 1:1? How many of those who are working are working in “minimum wage” or “part-time” positions?
How many illegal immigrants are walking across the border every day? And then claiming all sorts of social service, education, health care and welfare benefits? How many hospitals in border states have closed because they can’t afford to continue to provide free medical/ hospital care to illegals? How many school districts are struggling?
At some point, our system will collapse, and when it does, it won’t be pretty. I don’t have to advocate for cutting programs and benefits – that will happen as a natural consequence of an unworkable and unsustainable system. I hate to be the “bearer of bad news,” and I really hope that I am “wrong” about all of the above. (I am afraid that I am NOT wrong.)
The various entitlement programs will eventually collapse under their own weight. Why? It all comes down to mathematics. **When “the takers” far outnumber “the producers” the system is not sustainable. What cannot be sustained won’t be sustained. **
It won’t matter whether people are truly “needy” or not. It won’t matter whether people are homeless or digging through trash bins for food. Our country is printing and borrowing trillions of dollars … and at some point the chickens are going to come home to roost.
What is the extent of the unfunded liabilities in this country? Is it somewhere around 200 trillion dollars? How many people are entirely out of the workforce/ unemployed? Is it somewhere around 94 million? Out of a US population of what? 310 or 320 million? And how many million of these individuals are children/ minors? What percentage of the people in the US are on some sort of government hand-out? What is the ratio of those who work to support those who don’t – is it 3:1? is it 2:1? Is is 1:1? How many of those who are working are working in “minimum wage” or “part-time” positions?
How many illegal immigrants are walking across the border every day? And then claiming all sorts of social service, education, health care and welfare benefits? How many hospitals in border states have closed because they can’t afford to continue to provide free medical/ hospital care to illegals? How many school districts are struggling?
At some point, our system will collapse, and when it does, it won’t be pretty. I don’t have to advocate for cutting programs and benefits – that will happen as a natural consequence of an unworkable and unsustainable system. I hate to be the “bearer of bad news,” and I really hope that I am “wrong” about all of the above. (I am afraid that I am NOT wrong.)
F
franklinstower
Guest
Are you saying that you believe that even if we weeded out all of the people who abuse these benefits leaving only the people who truly qualify for them because of real need we would still collapse the economy because of them?
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3_Dog_Night
Guest
I think we are beyond the tipping point. The damage is already done with non-repayable debt, unfunded liabilities, printing money to pay for entitlements, etc. There isn’t the political will to weed out abuse of the system. Abuse of the system and a promise of entitlements = a voter base. The United States is in worse shape than Greece and Puerto Rico combined. I truly believe the system is going to collapse. I don’t know when but it will happen. If 48% of the people work to support 52% of the people who live on government handouts … Well that’s just not sustainable. It’s too late; you can try and weed out abuse and/or reform the system, but the math doesn’t work. 18 trillion divided by 320 million equals what. That number is your individual share of the national debt. And that’s at zero percent interest rate policy. What happens when the interest rates increae? Then there is 200 trillion in unfunded liabilities divided by 320 million people. That number is your individual share of our country’s unfunded liabilities.
- Status