Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace message

[seekerz]

Seekerz there are many many statistics, surveys, government and private that document the major sources of poverty in this country. I do not need to meet them all. That being said, in fact I’ve been a volunteer at homeless shelters, food pantries, soup kitchens, drug treatment facilities, domestic violence shelters, and other social services (government based rather than charity).

The vast majority of poverty in this country is the result of fractured or unformed families, lack of education and substance abuse.

I am also a volunteer for a group that serves in Third World Countries where the issues are not so much in the control of the poor but government corruption, lack of private property rights, and natural disasters.

Look I am with the Holy Father that those of whom much is given, much is asked. Those with huge salaries and massive assets SHOULD share with those less fortunate. But I’m also not so blind as not to see that poverty in this country is far different than in Bangladesh.

What is sad to me is that with all of the resources and charitable spirit in this country, the programs that are supposed to help the poor are often counterproductive and full of perverse incentives.

Lisa

I’d be thankful if you’d point me to some specific statistics to support your viewpoint, but I’ll settle for your own gut feelings if you agree that derogatory/defamatory language is not appropriate regardless.

 

[seekerz]

So what are you going to do about it?

That’s exaggerated left-wing nonsense.

Sorry, but “poor” people in democracies who elect politicians based on racial grievances or some other selfish motive get the government they deserve just like anyone else.

Being poor does not mean a person cannot sin nor be selfish.

You mean like all those rich liberal elites and elite wannabes who

For what? Giving you another excuse to keep voting democrat?

Thank you, USA conservatives, for giving 4 times as much to charity than the liberal left, despite the fact that you make less money.

You sound angry, why is that? I’m simply making an observation I have made more than once on this very forum long before this Pope was elected. It has nothing to do with Democrat/Republican.

For that matter, the contemptuous attitudes are not only restricted to the poor, but I find it is more brazen when directed at them. It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

Luke 18:11

 

[seekerz]

You are right to condemn such actions. We all should!

I would submit to you though, that the true amount of this sort of talk is certainly exaggerated by some (again,hopefully a minority) on the left to fit a narrative to smear those on the right. There are smear wings on both sides that are exacerbating this, and we need to be able to separate their spin from the vast majority of both groups, who, I believe, are not this hateful at all.

@seekerz in particular (but for anyone else, too) - I recommend you watch the third video from the top on this page:

billoreilly.com/show?action=viewTVShow&showID=3542#3

No matter how you feel about Bill O, I think it’s important to see he and people like him are portrayed a lot worse than they really are.

Again, I’m not saying there aren’t people out there who demonize the poor. There are. But we should also be careful to look at what people are actually saying and discern this hateful speech from more pointed comments about abuse of the welfare system.

I very much appreciated the tone of your post, but have no idea what the link is supposed to show. Or are you one of those who identify me with MSNBC for some vague reason? Is there a smilie for ROTFL?

 

[frobert]

Originally Posted by seekerz
Thanks for the quote. What stands out to me is the “contempt for” the “weakest” and those considered “useless”. In the last year or two, it has hit me like a ton of bricks - this contempt of which the Pope speaks. The uncharitable attitude and frank insults directed at the poor have really been disturbing to me; people, even in the public arena, discussing the poor like the objects of their attacks cannot hear the condescending, dismissive narrative being used to blame them for their own poverty or disadvantage. What makes it even more disturbing is the deafening silence from those who are in a position to say “stop, this isn’t right”. Thank you Papa Francisco.

You are right to condemn such actions. We all should!

I would submit to you though, that the true amount of this sort of talk is certainly exaggerated by some (again,hopefully a minority) on the left to fit a narrative to smear those on the right. There are smear wings on both sides that are exacerbating this, and we need to be able to separate their spin from the vast majority of both groups, who, I believe, are not this hateful at all.

@seekerz in particular (but for anyone else, too) - I recommend you watch the third video from the top on this page:

billoreilly.com/show?action=viewTVShow&showID=3542#3

No matter how you feel about Bill O, I think it’s important to see he and people like him are portrayed a lot worse than they really are.

Again, I’m not saying there aren’t people out there who demonize the poor. There are. But we should also be careful to look at what people are actually saying and discern this hateful speech from more pointed comments about abuse of the welfare system.

 

[Havard]

I very much appreciated the tone of your post, but have no idea what the link is supposed to show. Or are you one of those who identify me with MSNBC for some vague reason?

Lol no… is there are reason I should?

I brought it up because there is some exaggeration of how widespread this attitude is, this contempt for the poor.

I think it’s encumbent on us all to filter through anything that characterizes one group especially negatively. There is usually a kernel of truth, which needs to be dealt with, but we should also be careful to not let partisan rhetoric influence us into thinking that “all conservatives hold this certain bad opinion or do this certain bad thing” or “all liberals hold that certain bad opinion or do that certain bad thing”.

Ya dig?

 

[LisaA]

I’d be thankful if you’d point me to some specific statistics to support your viewpoint, but I’ll settle for your own gut feelings if you agree that derogatory/defamatory language is not appropriate regardless.

According to the US Census, in 2007 5.8% of all people in married families lived in poverty,[30] as did 26.6% of all persons in single parent households[30] and 19.1% of all persons living alone.[30] More than 75% of all poor households are headed by women (2012).[31]

seekerz I think there is ample evidence that fractured and unformed families are the major cause of American poverty. Above is a Census bureau report correlating marital status with poverty. There was a large study (Pew I believe) that documented that if you simply graduate from high school, get married before having children, and have a job, the chances of being poor in this country are minimal.

Again, I appreciate Catholic Social Teaching so much and wish everyone would give it a try! Those blessed with great wealth have wonderful opportunities to do great things for the world. Maybe we would be better off appealing to their better angels than the biting criticism often seen in the media.

Not sure about the reference to vulgar language. I don’t think I used any vulgarities in my posts…plus the Mods would be all over it.

Lisa

 

[Darryl1958]

PF1:

In his encyclical Caritas in Veritate, my predecessor reminded the world how the lack of fraternity between peoples and men and women is a significant cause of poverty.11 In many societies, we are experiencing a profound poverty of relationships as a result of the lack of solid family and community relationships. We are concerned by the various types of hardship, marginalization, isolation and various forms of pathological dependencies which we see increasing. This kind of poverty can be overcome only through the rediscovery and valuing of fraternal relationships in the heart of families and communities, through the sharing of joys and sorrows, of the hardships and triumphs that are a part of human life.

The main source of poverty, according to the speech, is lack of fraternity, and at core of that lack of fraternity, is the dissolution of the family.

At the core of the dissolution of the family, is the separation of human sexuality from the cycle of procreation, enabling men free to pursue their passions and women free to live without family.

Extreme individualism today is a product of that sexual revolution.

 

[frobert]

Again, I appreciate Catholic Social Teaching so much and wish everyone would give it a try! Those blessed with great wealth have wonderful opportunities to do great things for the world. Maybe we would be better off appealing to their better angels than the biting criticism often seen in the media.

My experience in an a Catholic school from K to 8th grade is somewhat different than yours. I am older than you but at the time I attended a Catholic school, most of the nuns teaching did not possess more than a HS education. As a result I did not learn how to read properly until I was in my early 20s. Till I my 20s I had very low self esteem and opinion of myself, I thought I was "retarded.’ I had a lot to overcome to finally earn a PhD. I have forgiven the nuns and the CC that allowed such a betrayal but the memory still remains.

Thank God that today parochial schools must adhere to state standards of education.

 

[LisaA]

My experience in an a Catholic school from K to 8th grade is somewhat different than yours. I am older than you but at the time I attended a Catholic school, most of the nuns teaching did not possess more than a HS education. As a result I did not learn how to read properly until I was in my early 20s. Till I my 20s I had very low self esteem and opinion of myself, I thought I was "retarded.’ I had a lot to overcome to finally earn a PhD. I have forgiven the nuns and the CC that allowed such a betrayal but the memory still remains.

Thank God that today parochial schools must adhere to state standards of education.

Wow that’s interesting and I suspect not necessarily a common experience. My DH who is in his late 60s was Catholic school educated and when he entered public high school was so far ahead of the public school kids that he cruised for the first two years. Generally Catholic education is considered to be among the best.

Now how 'bout that Pope of ours? Is he afflicting the comforted and comforting the afflicted? He’s definitely making a statement or two and I’m delighted to have our Catholic faith in the news for something OTHER than the sexual abuse issue.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

The main source of poverty, according to the speech, is lack of fraternity, and at core of that lack of fraternity, is the dissolution of the family.

At the core of the dissolution of the family, is the separation of human sexuality from the cycle of procreation, enabling men free to pursue their passions and women free to live without family.

Extreme individualism today is a product of that sexual revolution.

spot on and totally ignored by the Left which seems determined to FURTHER distance sexual activity from marriage and procreation by pushing free birth control, abortions at will and “dead” relationships such as same sex “marriage.”

Lisa

 

[frobert]

Wow that’s interesting and I suspect not necessarily a common experience. My DH who is in his late 60s was Catholic school educated and when he entered public high school was so far ahead of the public school kids that he cruised for the first two years. Generally Catholic education is considered to be among the best.

Lisa

Why do you assume it was uncommon based on one person you know? My best friend, an MD, was educated in Jesuit schools and Catholic colleges and had a superior education. Jesuits are teaching order, many if not most nuns teaching in Catholic schools did not come from teaching orders. I have a theory of how and why it happened, namely, it would have been very expensive for the Church to educate nuns to appropriate levels for teaching and in their thinking teaching religion was imperative.

 

[LisaA]

Why do you assume it was uncommon based on one person you know? My best friend, an MD, was educated in Jesuit schools and Catholic colleges and had a superior education. Jesuits are teaching order, many if not most nuns teaching in Catholic schools did not come from teaching orders. I have a theory of how and why it happened, namely, it would have been very expensive for the Church to educate nuns to appropriate levels for teaching and in their thinking teaching religion was imperative.

I ‘suspect’ it because yours is the first I’ve heard of a substandard Catholic education. I hear of different personal experiences and thus we are just trading anecdotes.

But can we not go so far off topic? What does this have to do with the Holy Father’s remarks?

Lisa

 

[seekerz]

According to the US Census, in 2007 5.8% of all people in married families lived in poverty,[30] as did 26.6% of all persons in single parent households[30] and 19.1% of all persons living alone.[30] More than 75% of all poor households are headed by women (2012).[31]

seekerz I think there is ample evidence that fractured and unformed families are the major cause of American poverty. Above is a Census bureau report correlating marital status with poverty. There was a large study (Pew I believe) that documented that if you simply graduate from high school, get married before having children, and have a job, the chances of being poor in this country are minimal.

Again, I appreciate Catholic Social Teaching so much and wish everyone would give it a try! Those blessed with great wealth have wonderful opportunities to do great things for the world. Maybe we would be better off appealing to their better angels than the biting criticism often seen in the media.

Not sure about the reference to vulgar language. I don’t think I used any vulgarities in my posts…plus the Mods would be all over it.

Lisa

Thank you Lisa. My limited understanding of statistics leaves me wondering how we went from “vast majority of the poor” causing their own poverty, to the link between marriage and wealth? (You do know that correlation - which is what your data shows - does not imply causation, right?)

What you have done is divided the married and the unmarried into wealthy and poor, but that was not your original statement. Give me that stats that divide the total poor into the "vast majority" (there should at the minimum be a percentage in there somewhere, for your statement to be true) who suffer self-inflicted poverty and the tiny minority who are poor for other reasons.

Also, just to clarify, my original post (to which you responded) was about inappropriate language and attitudes to the poor and that was what I was referring to - not to any language you personally used.

 

[christofirst]

But can we not go so far off topic? What does this have to do with the Holy Father’s remarks?

Lisa

I agree! The Holy Father’s statement for the World Day of Peace 2014 (on which this thread appears to be based) is a beautiful document. I just read it at the vatican.va website, and I hope others do too.

 

[frobert]

I ‘suspect’ it because yours is the first I’ve heard of a substandard Catholic education. I hear of different personal experiences and thus we are just trading anecdotes.

But can we not go so far off topic? What does this have to do with the Holy Father’s remarks?

Lisa

not much, I was only responding to your statement about Catholic schools and wanted to say that other people have different experiences than you. I was just taken back at how quickly you and easily you discarded my experience. To me its not an antidote that may or may not be true I experienced in it.

I apologize for the distraction, Please return to the topic on hand.

 

[seekerz]

The main source of poverty, according to the speech, is lack of fraternity, and at core of that lack of fraternity, is the dissolution of the family.

At the core of the dissolution of the family, is the separation of human sexuality from the cycle of procreation, enabling men free to pursue their passions and women free to live without family.

Extreme individualism today is a product of that sexual revolution.

Some sort of objective evidence, pretty please. Among the poor, poverty is often the cause of family strife and other problems which lead to family dissolution, but I cannot say it is the only cause or even the main cause because I have no stats to support that.

 

[LisaA]

Thank you Lisa. My limited understanding of statistics leaves me wondering how we went from “vast majority of the poor” causing their own poverty, to the link between marriage and wealth? (You do know that correlation - which is what your data shows - does not imply causation, right?)

What you have done is divided the married and the unmarried into wealthy and poor, but that was not your original statement. Give me that stats that divide the total poor into the "vast majority" (there should at the minimum be a percentage in there somewhere, for your statement to be true) who suffer self-inflicted poverty and the tiny minority who are poor for other reasons.

Also, just to clarify, my original post (to which you responded) was about inappropriate language and attitudes to the poor and that was what I was referring to - not to any language you personally used.

seekerz do not twist my words. The vast majority of poverty in THIS country is caused by poor decisions by the individuals or their parents. Per the large Pew study these poor decisions are not finishing high school, having children out of wedlock, and substance abuse. I’ll try to drag out that information if you insist although I cannot believe you have anything to dispute this claim. The easiest statistic to point to is marriage as these data are credible and accessible. You are correct, correlation is not necessarily causation but this is not the only study/survey/statistic that makes the same point.

The beauty of this discussion is that the Church’s teaching serves well to prevent poverty through her support of marriage and the family. While it’s easy to point to huge disparities between wealth CEO’s and the average citizen, the reality is that there are very few CEOs but a lot of folks who are struggling to survive financially. Tearing down Jeffrey Immelt confiscating his paycheck will not help the millions mired in generational poverty that IMO was created by the very programs that sought to solve the problem.

Lisa

 

[seekerz]

Lol no… is there are reason I should?

I brought it up because there is some exaggeration of how widespread this attitude is, this contempt for the poor.

Nah.

I think it’s encumbent on us all to filter through anything that characterizes one group especially negatively. There is usually a kernel of truth, which needs to be dealt with, but we should also be careful to not let partisan rhetoric influence us into thinking that “all conservatives hold this certain bad opinion or do this certain bad thing” or “all liberals hold that certain bad opinion or do that certain bad thing”.

To be perfectly honest, the prompting for my post had nothing to do with partisan influences. It was based on what I personally experienced discussing poverty with some of my fellow Catholics and seeing their views reflected in the attitudes of one or two prominent figures. Which is why I mentioned the silence - because one or two people making outrageous statements is not necessarily a big deal unless the response (or lack thereof) indicates that it is a big deal.

It can be hard these days to comment on social issues without being categorized - which I believe is why the Pope’s repeated references to the poor is causing so much debate. Like I have said a million times, I see nothing new in his words. My morning meditation reminded me that God identifies with the poor, so unless the meaning of the word ‘poor’ recently changed, I can’t understand the “sky is falling” reaction to the Church’s ageless teaching.

 

[seekerz]

seekerz do not twist my words. The vast majority of poverty in THIS country is caused by poor decisions by the individuals or their parents. Per the large Pew study these poor decisions are not finishing high school, having children out of wedlock, and substance abuse. I’ll try to drag out that information if you insist although I cannot believe you have anything to dispute this claim. The easiest statistic to point to is marriage as these data are credible and accessible. You are correct, correlation is not necessarily causation but this is not the only study/survey/statistic that makes the same point.

The beauty of this discussion is that the Church’s teaching serves well to prevent poverty through her support of marriage and the family. While it’s easy to point to huge disparities between wealth CEO’s and the average citizen, the reality is that there are very few CEOs but a lot of folks who are struggling to survive financially. Tearing down Jeffrey Immelt confiscating his paycheck will not help the millions mired in generational poverty that IMO was created by the very programs that sought to solve the problem.

Lisa

Which Pew study? I don’t have to present any evidence since I made no claim about “the vast majority of the poor”. You made that statement and continue to defend it, so please give some supporting evidence.

 

[frobert]

It can be hard these days to comment on social issues without being categorized - which I believe is why the Pope’s repeated references to the poor is causing so much debate. Like I have said a million times, I see nothing new in his words. My morning meditation reminded me that God identifies with the poor, so unless the meaning of the word ‘poor’ recently changed, I can’t understand the “sky is falling” reaction to the Church’s ageless teaching.

emphasis mine