Pope Benedict: Halt Cafeteria Catholicism!

[fix]

“Cafeteria Catholicism” works both ways. There are many overlly concerned with sexuality while they ignore the social teachings of the Church to help the poor & make peace.

I see few Catholics on the street helping the homeless & hungry,.or going into the ghettos to help single mothers, or visiting prisoners & the sick.

So again perhaps we should remove the plank from our own eye before seeking to remove the speck from someone else’s.

catholicworker.org/

How do you know who is helping and who is not? On this site we have no shortage of folks who say they reject Church teaching on sexual morality. I hardly ever see anyone who says they reject Church teaching on helping the poor.

"It is sometimes reported that a large number of Catholics today do not adhere to the teaching of the Catholic Church on a number of questions,** notably sexual and conjugal morality**, divorce and remarriage

 

[shannon_e]

Alan,

I don’t think that the Holy Father is in any way giving the green light for others to accuse others of anything. I think that he is calling for all of us to be truly honest with ourselves.
[see E.E.E.N’s post # 18]

We are human. What do you want? Mistakes and errors and ignoring the log in our own eyes is part and parcel of being human. But I don’t think that you could honestly tell me that all of us remaining silent about everything would improve anything.

No, sometimes we have to speak up if we think that someone is misguided to the detriment of their soul, or the souls of those around them. And sometimes we’ll get it right-- and sometimes we’ll muck it up. Sometimes we’ll be as loving as Jesus-- and sometimes if we’re tired or if the other person reacts a certain way-- we may take it personally and jump forward with sword drawn to save the Church that saved our life. (and later remember that the gates of hell will never prevail against her. and then call and apologize).

So what do we do?
I vote for:

1. always try to look at self and let God look at others.
2. when #1 isn’t possible-- ask in a non-threatening way. (don’t assume the worse).
3. share the truth to the best of your ability.
4. dialogue if possible. Walk away if not. (I think you mentioned that somewhere. I think you’re right-on about that.)
5. remember that you don’t know where their heart is unless they tell you.

Peace

 

[E.E.N.S]

Another thing is people say “don’t judge” all the time, while true we are not supposed to judge the salvation of a person, but we are supposed to judge actions - as St. Paul says “For what have I to do to judge them that are without? (outside the Church). Do you not judge them that are within? For them that are without, God will judge. Put away the evil one from among yourselves” (1 Corinthians 5:12-13).

We cannot judge a person’s heart, nor their motives, nor their final destination, but we are [for the safety of the person’s soul] to judge our brother’s and sister’s actions, in love.

 

[Brad]

allhers:

Me too, and …I don’t think anything our dear Holy Father says is meaningless. You’re right about God knowing though, however, God also knows if one is listening to His representative on earth or not too.

Far from meaningless, I think the statment holds enormous importance for all.

 

[Brad]

BarbaraTherese:

God also knows if one is obedient because obedience is a virtue and an evangelical counsel … and if one has serious and honest with absolute integrity questions that dont seem to have answers.

I put obedience to a far superior wisdom than mine (The Church) as always prime…while still trying to resolve questions on some matters and if one asks them one is accused of all sorts of manner of things … until one decides to say nothing…well more or less without a persecution complex!
]
I think we should be able to question and look for answers without personal accusations…and on any subject whatsoever!..otherwise people ask questions of us and we dont have answers and impoverish ourselves in the call to evangelize. A thousand difficulties with an issue cannot add up to one sing le doubt!

Barb

It is ok to question. It is wrong to promote something that disagrees with Church teaching or openly disagree with a Church teaching.

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear shannon e,

I think you are right on target.

The biggest problem is that people tend to get pretty judgmental of others’ attitudes, and therefore the question because in any given case, “are you being honest with your struggles or not?”

I venture to guess that even those who openly dissent may be sinning when they do so, but we tend to look for that key that tells us what the attitude is, so that we can judge them.

Why do we want to judge them? So we can justify anger, frustration, and a desire to see them cut off from the Body of Christ to “keep it pure” from this type of sinner.

Why do we have all the anger and frustration toward CCs? Because we seem to think they are going to hurt the Church somehow, I guess. Maybe those who despise CCs forgot to remember what they keep telling us, that the Church is strong enough the gates of hell will never prevail against her.

Now we have the pope saying:

Gosh, I wish I could see a larger context of this comment. It sounds like the Holy Father has said something that, though true, is going to fuel the anti-CC antibodies in the Body of Christ to continue to attack and try to pressure CCs to “shape up or ship out.” Such as the case with mindless lemmings; because the pope says a certain thing is a problem, out come the sword to find out whose ears we need to chop off or for that matter who do we have to get rid of?

What do I make of the “good Catholic” comment? Here’s why I want to see a bigger context. What sins, may I ask, may one commit and still be a “good Catholic?” Is the Holy Father saying that someone who says they assent but then sins anyway is more “good” than someone who admits they do not assent to a teaching? Surely not, but it’s always hard to tell from just an excerpt from a speech.

How are we to judge which Catholics are “good” and which ones we should vilify? What is more dangerous, a few Catholics who voice their issues, or the huge silent majority of Catholics who never admit to any issues because they keep their mouths shut and keep their dissent to themselves, and don’t give the Church their pharmacy records.

To me, this quote from the Holy Father, at least taken out of context, is not particularly helpful.

I don’t know. I don’t even know what I believe anymore. Maybe I do assent to the Church teachings, I don’t know. The fact that I allow myself to think she may not be infallible, I suppose, makes me a “bad” Catholic. Would the Holy Father prefer I leave his Church? Telling me I’m a bad boy only furthers the emotional stake and makes me more resistant to openness because such assertions do little to witness to Truth other than make Truth look too weak to stand on its own merit. As long as I know I am getting pressure and evil thoughts from those around me because of the way they think I think, then I cannot make an honestly free decision to choose the Church teachings if I wanted to.

In all these cases, Jesus condemned those who judged these sins more harshly than those who performed them. Hopefully this is not the direction the Holy Father plans to take.

…

Alan

Alan, with all due respect, I don’t know where you have been or what you have been exposed to of late, but I will say this.

There is an ever large number of outright dissenters in the religious life and the priesthood. This dissent does vicious harm to the souls of the faithful. Such dissent has always existed at some level and saints such as St. Bridget knew very well the awful harm that was being done. While the typical CC may be misguided, I am sure the Pope was talking more of open dissenters, which tend to be more concentrated among priests and religious but also exist strongly today in the laity.

Throwing around terms like “hatred” does not accurately categorize the feelings of families that have been scandalized, fired, condemned, and belittiled by religious and priests because they are faithful believing Catholics. Better terms would be frustrated and sorrowful.

Also, if you are unsure if you assent to Church teaching, it is best to find out whether or not you are.

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

I have an idea. I guess I don’t want to be called “not good” so from now on I will be a Fully Assenting Catholic, so I give up. Persuaded not by logic or leadership, but by desire to quit offending those who think I am not a Good Catholic despite the countless hours I’ve worked for her.

Until I claim otherwise, I hereby publicly claim that I believe the Church is singularly led by the Holy Spirit and she is infallible in faith and morals, and that anything I think of her that is negative is actually wrong. If I do have any opinions to the contrary, I will keep them to myself so as not to offend any “good” Catholics.

There. Problem solved. No more issues with CC. I’ll tell my dissenting friends how easy it is to get back into “good” standing with the Church. If they don’t come along, then I suppose I’ll have to tell them a thing or two – they can either join us in mental assent or get out and join the Protestants…

Alan

Not that I want you to go but what’s the difference between your attitude and that of the church shopping Protestants?

 

[Bella3502]

Are you a “Cafeteria Catholic” or a “CINO” if you use any form artificial birth control?

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I was at this exact place when I made the decision to fully enter the Church.

In my time I have come to fully assent to all the Church Teaches, well almost fully. There are still a couple of nagging points but I do not talk about them as the Church Teaches the Truth and I am working to understand that Truth and to form myself.

…and I think we not only have the right to discuss issues that may well be controversial in Catholicism, but a real need…we need to be able to explain why we believe to questioners. The Holy Father has called on the laity to evangelize but we cannot do this unless we are able to explain issues in many instances anyway.

Regards Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

shannon e:

I think you’re doing fine. I don’t think that honest struggles with your faith in any way makes you a dissenter. I think that you have a love for God and Church that will bring you to the fullness of Truth. This occurs in God’s time-- not anyone else’s.

Obedience is probably the wisest way to get there-- because it goes hand in hand with building up a trust in God in Church. Sometimes trust and faith is the only way we can bridge the gap between what we know and what we believe.

Acting in honest obedience, and asking God for clarity (a strong prayer life with sacraments) will open your eyes to the good fruits that you are cultivating. As this happens, it makes sense that your eyes would also become open to the (sometimes subtle) bad fruits that occur when we stumble over our pride.

Because we all do that. No matter where we are on whatever spectrum-- we all sin and stumble. The grace is knowing it and letting that grace help us to get back on track.

Peace

Hi there again Shannon e…re your above Post #12…thank you for the encouragement “every day as long as this day lasts keep encouraging one another” (Introductory to The Divine Office)…

It is never my sinfulness and failings that surprise me…always my better points which I see as coming from God and His Grace to me…which has the power to startle me too…that such as He would stoop to the such as I…and no pious platitudes intended!!!

Great to catch up with you again Shannon e…I’m pretty sure we have met elsewhere…and not that I have just been reading your Posts…

Regards Barb

 

[SHEMP]

BarbaraTherese:

…here is the moral dilemma…I assent through Obedience to what The Church proclaims and teaches, although I may have real questions on the issue … purely as an example… if I say am asked “Do you believe you must go to Confession at least once a year at Easter or within the appointed time” and I say “Yes I do” (true) am I morally correct in not stating my whole position ie. I have serious questions on the issue although I do believe The Church and obey because I hold Obedience to be superior in this instance. Just a question

Barb

Pray to Saint Anselm who said that Faith proceeds understanding. You are doing well. Keep praying. Read great spirtual reading. Pray that you will understand.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

AlanFromWichita:

When you went full assent, is it because you were convinced to do so by people who thought you should Just Get Out of the Church if you don’t?

Alan

Hi Alan…off to Mass again this morning…

Re your comments above…I agree with them whole heartedly…I have been asked why I dont just leave The Church and by Catholics, simply because I seek understanding of why I believe. If one asks questions looking for understanding of an act of obedience…at times the ‘metaphysical holy roof of Catholicism’ comes down on one. As I have said in a couple of Posts in this Thread…if we cannot explain why we believe what we believe we run a very high risk of impoverishing ourselves as evangilists…in spreading The Gospel of Christ and His Church.

Regards Barb

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Bella3502:

Are you a “Cafeteria Catholic” or a “CINO” if you use any form artificial birth control?

Depends on whose point of view.

In the eyes of the Church, yes.

In the eyes of any member of the Church except yourself, not if you keep your mouth shut about it.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

BarbaraTherese:

…if we cannot explain why we believe what we believe we run a very high risk of impoverishing ourselves as evangilists…in spreading The Gospel of Christ and His Church.

Yes, and if I don’t understand why I believe the Church other than that she says I should, then what is to distinguish her from similar callings from opposing Churches? If she is confident in her beliefs she is not threatened by questions – even if posed in frustration. After all, when a person seeks an answer for years and generally gets fed a line of bull, it’s a bit much to expect them to recognize and immediately embrace the truth when they see it. They’re a little skittish, like rats not sure whether to take the cheese. Love and patience keeps them seeking the center, not stomping behind them like it was a frog race. Have you ever seen what happens to some of those frogs?

Alan

 

[BarbaraTherese]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear shannon e,

I think you are right on target.

The biggest problem is that people tend to get pretty judgmental of others’ attitudes, and therefore the question because in any given case, “are you being honest with your struggles or not?”

I venture to guess that even those who openly dissent may be sinning when they do so, but we tend to look for that key that tells us what the attitude is, so that we can judge them.

Why do we want to judge them? So we can justify anger, frustration, and a desire to see them cut off from the Body of Christ to “keep it pure” from this type of sinner.

What do I make of the “good Catholic” comment? Here’s why I want to see a bigger context. What sins, may I ask, may one commit and still be a “good Catholic?” Is the Holy Father saying that someone who says they assent but then sins anyway is more “good” than someone who admits they do not assent to a teaching? Surely not, but it’s always hard to tell from just an excerpt from a speech.

…perhaps we ought to listed to The Lord…“judge not that you may not be judged”…“as you meter out, so will it be metered out to you”. Good Catholic, Bad Catholic…“why do you call me good, only God is Good”…I mean Jesus did not say these things for the heck of it…and sooner or lat er the penny starts to drop and one comes to insight why He said what He said…and how very true what He said was! It’s not that one ever doubted His Words, but the light of understanding was not present…until the day the blind suddenly goes up in the dark room and one insights just why He said some of the t hings He did. If Jesus grants us insight into the why’s and wherefore’s of His Words in time…why should The Church as us to obey blindly and without insighting why we hold to what we do? Because one asks questions seeking understanding is only the search for understanding…in no way a rejection of what The Church is saying. Is a certain paranoia creeping into The Church?..which after all remains human and subject to human frailty in many areas indeed. Now this is not to say The Church is failing for “thou art Peter The Rock and on This Rock I will build My Church…and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it!” … ie no need for any alarm really…concern yes for we are co-workers with Christ, slaves and servants no longer but friends. As Julien of Norwich said:
all is well
all is well
and all manner of things shall be well

Now this is not advertising passivity…rather to loose our worried anxiety… to work in the directions we feel and know we should work…but not to get all uptight and anxious … we have backed a winner as it were in Christ …and a foregone conclusion!..

Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_26.gif (my little smiley critter for “jumping in at the deep end!”)

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Brad:

Not that I want you to go but what’s the difference between your attitude and that of the church shopping Protestants?

…there is a wealth of difference. Often, and I have seen Alan refer to this in other Posts, our motivations are far from perfect, but at least he has the honesty and integrity (refer Alan’s Post #27) to be honest about motivation. Life is all attitude…all Alan’s attitude may take is a slight twist of attitude…to hold to The Church because Christ proclaimed he was indeed starting a Church “and on this Rock I will build MY CHURCH” … so The Church begins and Jesus adds “and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it” and here is the guarantee that since we can trace ourselves back to t he time of the apostles that we are indeed The Church Christ started because at no point will Hell prevail and destroy it!!!..hence we are The Church He started.

Now Alan or indeed my motivation at any point on any matter whatsoever may lack perfection, be imperfect…but nevertheless imperfect motivations are recognized by The Church as valid motivation…though not yet at the fulness of Truth.

Onyer:thumbsup: Alan for your continuing honesty and integrity:dancing: … and spiritual qualities to be recommended to all!!!

Regards, Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_26.gif …jumping into the deep again…“and so I leave my boats behind, leave them on familiar shores, set my heart upon the deep, to follow You again My Lord” (Galilee Song)…my favourite hymn because it sings of leaving what is secure and safe behind…because honesty and integrity ask it and a real and active desire to follow Jesus no matter where He is leading even out of my safety and security zones…

 

[BarbaraTherese]

AlanFromWichita:

Yes, and if I don’t understand why I believe the Church other than that she says I should, then what is to distinguish her from similar callings from opposing Churches? If she is confident in her beliefs she is not threatened by questions – even if posed in frustration. After all, when a person seeks an answer for years and generally gets fed a line of bull, it’s a bit much to expect them to recognize and immediately embrace the truth when they see it. They’re a little skittish, like rats not sure whether to take the cheese. Love and patience keeps them seeking the center, not stomping behind them like it was a frog race. Have you ever seen what happens to some of those frogs?

Alan

…you dont need me Alan to keep coming up at the rear affirming you for sure, man…but you sure warm the cockles of my heart with great joy for your honesty and integrity (fruits of the Holy Spirit) that grants you such rich insight into reality and Reality…with God as Ultimate Reality and Jesus is God…and I love the signature too, man…But I loved the one that ran…if I am upsetting you, then please dislodge my keyboard from your heartstrings!!!..keep up the good work Alan…keep it up!..Jesus in his own time was something of a heretic Jew…and “as they persecuted me, so they will persecute you” That’s what I love about CAF … so very many truly honest people contribute…not mouthing pious platitudes that strikes me (in my complete lack of Charity…mea culpa, maxima culpa) as advertising one’s piety and holiness (cough! cough!)…“do not let your piety show”!..I’d trade a bucket full of pious platitudes for one drop of honesty and integrity. No need to point out that I pave the way to my hell with lack of Charity…I know it! …“why is it that I continue to do the t hings I have made up my mind not to do?..and what can save me?..why nothing but The Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ” which He may or may not grant in His Own time. The Lord is not wasteful, he has use and good use for all things: " all things work together for those that love God" …" how can you say you love God whom you cannot see, if you do not love your neighbour whom you can"…luvya Alan!

Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_5_135.gif

“If we believe absurdities, we will commit atrocities” (Voltaire)
…and to believe without understanding…is an absurdity!
That is what fueled the Spanish Inquisition…it was demanded that people believe with absolute lack of questioning or seeking understanding…and an atrocity resulted!

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

“Cafeteria Catholicism” works both ways. There are many overlly concerned with sexuality while they ignore the social teachings of the Church to help the poor & make peace.

I see few Catholics on the street helping the homeless & hungry,.or going into the ghettos to help single mothers, or visiting prisoners & the sick.

So again perhaps we should remove the plank from our own eye before seeking to remove the speck from someone else’s.

catholicworker.org/

Not to worry!!! It’s that very plank in your own eye that prevents you from seeing what all of us are busy doing for the homeless, the hungry and the ghetto single mothers and sick prisoners!!!

Admittedly, we do try very hard to not let our left hand know what our right hand is doing in many of these social justice endeavors, (Matthew 6:3).

Poor rationalization. :tsktsk:

Anna

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Anna Elizabeth:

Not to worry!!! It’s that very plank in your own eye that prevents you from seeing what all of us are busy doing for the homeless, the hungry and the ghetto single mothers and sick prisoners!!!

Admittedly, we do try very hard to not let our left hand know what our right hand is doing in many of these social justice endeavors, (Matthew 6:3).

Sometimes that’s good. You do your job, I’ll do mine, and we’ll each get more done than if we compare each others’ workload all day and worry the other one is in line.

Sometimes that’s bad. We fail to coordinate as a team among what we agree are the priorities.

Poor rationalization. :tsktsk:

Anna

Umm, I know we haven’t been introduced, but would you mind terribly if I say you look cute when you do that?

Alan

 

[BarbaraTherese]

AlanFromWichita:

Yes, and if I don’t understand why I believe the Church other than that she says I should, then what is to distinguish her from similar callings from opposing Churches? If she is confident in her beliefs she is not threatened by questions – even if posed in frustration. After all, when a person seeks an answer for years and generally gets fed a line of bull, it’s a bit much to expect them to recognize and immediately embrace the truth when they see it. They’re a little skittish, like rats not sure whether to take the cheese. Love and patience keeps them seeking the center, not stomping behind them like it was a frog race. Have you ever seen what happens to some of those frogs?

Alan

…questions will never hurt The Church … and questions from the man in the street…because then in Charity she should give answers that the man in the street can understand, insight…and not answers for theologians and canon lawyers that only they can insight and understand or the more educated amongst us . I tend to think Pope Benedict would have been more enlightened to encourage us to ask our questions and seek answers…and to remind us that in so doing we are brothers and sisters in the one Holy Family, The Church…and should ask our questions and seek with loving attitudes towards each other that once again people may say of us “see how they love one another” … we need to ask our questions and to learn how to do so, argue etc. etc. with loving attitudes.

What will be the prime question asked of us all at Judgement after all:

l. What did you believe?

or 2. How did you love?

I think it is one for our spiritual and moral theologians to give us definitions of what this love is all about…not wishy washy for Jesus was not wishy washy: “get thee behind me Satan” to the
to be Head of His Church!!! … not 'dont argue and question" but “argue and question lovingly”. I happen to think love is a committment…but a commitment to what?..
that in the footsteps of deMello, and with considerable audacity and humility, I leave open …

Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_30.gif