Pope Benedict: Halt Cafeteria Catholicism!

[AlanFromWichita]

BarbaraTherese:

I tend to think Pope Benedict would have been more enlightened to encourage us to ask our questions and seek answers

Hey, how’s he gonna know how to get through to schmucks like us unless we tell him? I just sent him another email, since I never got a reply to my last one about centering prayer.

Golly in the political system they say if you don’t voice your opinion, then don’t complain. Why should we gripe about the Church if we’re not able to face the Holy Father directly with our requests?

The email:

---

Dear Most Holy Father,

Welcome to your new position as our spiritual leader.

I know you are very interested in ending cafeteria Catholicism. As one who has been very much cafeteria in the past (and still recovering a bit) may I offer the following observation from my experience?

Some cafeteria Catholics feel the theological teachings of the Church are hard to understand fully unless they also have spiritual guidance of some form or other.

Is it possible that His Holiness could consider seeing that more teachings about mystical aspects of theology, the apophatic tradition in the Church, are made available to the laity? In particular, I would like to see a worldwide emphasis on all forms of Christian prayer, inluding contemplative forms for those in active vocations. These things have been great blessings to me and I think there are many who hunger for it and don’t even know it exists within Catholicism.

Thank you for your consideration, and for making yourself available to us as our leader on the Seat of Peter. I am so honored that you would trust us with your email address.

Thank you again,
(signed and addressed)

---

Alan

 

[shannon_e]

Barbara Therese , you make some good points.

We “met” before in the tech support forum. something about email difficulties, I think…

Peace

 

[BarbaraTherese]

shannon e:

Barbara Therese , you make some good points.

We “met” before in the tech support forum. something about email difficulties, I think…

Peace

…oh dear Tech Support…

…thanks for the encouragment Shannon e, that I not always have my foot in things as I most oft fear I do …as to Tech Support…they are dealing with a ‘computer dummy and techological dyslexic’ in me and a fact!..I sorta stumble along with the computer trying to follow the bouncing ball…at least computers do have a bouncing ball! …as do Tech Support for sure being computer experts…
but as for at times…woops!.. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_5_135.gif …

Thanks Shannon e

Barb
P.S. I think you helped me get my MSN Emails back when I had lost them completely…thanks!.. I think I passed on to you 'IT WORKED!"…thank you on that score too “every day as long as this day lasts keep encouraging one another” so I guess I’m not the only one saying thank you to you!..

 

[BarbaraTherese]

shannon e:

Barbara Therese , you make some good points.

We “met” before in the tech support forum. something about email difficulties, I think…

Peace

 

[Ani_Ibi]

“If we believe absurdities, we will commit atrocities” (Voltaire) …and to believe without understanding…is an absurdity! That is what fueled the Spanish Inquisition…it was demanded that people believe with absolute lack of questioning or seeking understanding…and an atrocity resulted!

Not. The Spanish Inquisition was a landgrab by the secular authorities.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Ani Ibi:

Not. The Spanish Inquisition was a landgrab by the secular authorities.

…you are probably right…but as I understand it certainly Dominican and Franciscan priests were involved in the Inquisition as inquisitors and that The Church at the time did not loudly condemn the practises of the Inquisition forbidding priests to take in any way part in it…but that, Ani Ibi, is as I understand things and I could very well stand corrected…in your charity please correct my error if I am incorrect…again I could be wrong but I understand a Grand Inquisitor, whose name escapes me, became a Pope?

If I stand corrected smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_26.gif , then nevertheless, the absurdity of the terms of most convictions to rack and stake and religious in nature during the Inquisition led to the horror and atrocities of that Inquisition…no matter who landgrabbed…

While I do not advocate absolutely Voltaire’s statement as an absolute…it is a good caution…

Peace to all no matter yer shoe size…

Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_11.gif

 

[BigPaulie]

AlanFromWichita:

Hey, how’s he gonna know how to get through to schmucks like us unless we tell him? I just sent him another email, since I never got a reply to my last one about centering prayer.

Golly in the political system they say if you don’t voice your opinion, then don’t complain. Why should we gripe about the Church if we’re not able to face the Holy Father directly with our requests?

The email:

---

Dear Most Holy Father,

Welcome to your new position as our spiritual leader.

I know you are very interested in ending cafeteria Catholicism. As one who has been very much cafeteria in the past (and still recovering a bit) may I offer the following observation from my experience?

Some cafeteria Catholics feel the theological teachings of the Church are hard to understand fully unless they also have spiritual guidance of some form or other.

Is it possible that His Holiness could consider seeing that more teachings about mystical aspects of theology, the apophatic tradition in the Church, are made available to the laity? In particular, I would like to see a worldwide emphasis on all forms of Christian prayer, inluding contemplative forms for those in active vocations. These things have been great blessings to me and I think there are many who hunger for it and don’t even know it exists within Catholicism.

Thank you for your consideration, and for making yourself available to us as our leader on the Seat of Peter. I am so honored that you would trust us with your email address.

Thank you again,
(signed and addressed)

---

Alan

Dear Alan, The Church has been stressing other “aspects of theology” in lieu of hard doctrinal teachings for the past thirty-five years. Cafeteria Catholicism is the result ! :banghead:
BigPaulie

 

[Brad]

Bella3502:

Are you a “Cafeteria Catholic” or a “CINO” if you use any form artificial birth control?

Cafeteria, yes. CINO, no. In sin, yes.

 

[Brad]

BarbaraTherese:

…there is a wealth of difference. Often, and I have seen Alan refer to this in other Posts, our motivations are far from perfect, but at least he has the honesty and integrity (refer Alan’s Post #27) to be honest about motivation. Life is all attitude…all Alan’s attitude may take is a slight twist of attitude…to hold to The Church because Christ proclaimed he was indeed starting a Church “and on this Rock I will build MY CHURCH” … so The Church begins and Jesus adds “and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it” and here is the guarantee that since we can trace ourselves back to t he time of the apostles that we are indeed The Church Christ started because at no point will Hell prevail and destroy it!!!..hence we are The Church He started.

Aren’t you still looking for a Chuch to teach what you want it to teach rather than submitting your will and intellect to the teaching of Christ’s Church? If you can agree that Christ proclaimed this is His Church (an excellent start) then why would you think that His Church would teach falsely on faith and morals?

BarbaraTherese:

Now Alan or indeed my motivation at any point on any matter whatsoever may lack perfection, be imperfect…but nevertheless imperfect motivations are recognized by The Church as valid motivation…though not yet at the fulness of Truth.

I don’t know what you mean by “valid” motivation. Motives are the key to making right or wrong actions and must be guided by true and correct aids, namely the Church.

 

[AuntMartha]

I just wonder how long some people expect to go on and on trying to change Church doctrines, asking the same questions and getting the same answers, and still they won’t accept what the Church says. How many times are people going to bring up things like women’s ordination or gay marriage or whatever their pet CC cause is, hoping that if they just keep asking and asking, much like a nagging child at the grocery store, that the church will give in like a weary parent and grant them what they desire?

When does a Catholic’s own opinions and desires override the Church’s Authority? I mean, at what point do the questions stop, and one finally accepts that they can’t have it their way, however justified they think they are? Does the person keep asking and asking until eternity ends? Shouldn’t there be a moment when the person finally says, “Okay, I’ve brought this up hundreds of times and each time the Church gives the same answer. It’s very unlikely that the Church is going to change on this and maybe it’s time to stop insisting on change and accept what the Church’s authority says.”

 

[Brad]

BarbaraTherese:

…questions will never hurt The Church … and questions from the man in the street…because then in Charity she should give answers that the man in the street can understand, insight…and not answers for theologians and canon lawyers that only they can insight and understand or the more educated amongst us . I tend to think Pope Benedict would have been more enlightened to encourage us to ask our questions and seek answers…and to remind us that in so doing we are brothers and sisters in the one Holy Family, The Church…and should ask our questions and seek with loving attitudes towards each other that once again people may say of us “see how they love one another” … we need to ask our questions and to learn how to do so, argue etc. etc. with loving attitudes.

What will be the prime question asked of us all at Judgement after all:

l. What did you believe?

or 2. How did you love?

I think it is one for our spiritual and moral theologians to give us definitions of what this love is all about…not wishy washy for Jesus was not wishy washy: “get thee behind me Satan” to the
to be Head of His Church!!! … not 'dont argue and question" but “argue and question lovingly”. I happen to think love is a committment…but a commitment to what?..
that in the footsteps of deMello, and with considerable audacity and humility, I leave open …

Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_30.gif

Asking the same old questions over and over is not asking a question but seeking an alternate answer. On the key topics of dissent, the answers have been clearly laid out in innumerable documents and are available to all who are willing to seek the truth with an “honest” and open heart full of “integrity”.

It is one thing to ask a question, receive an answer, and accept it in obedience (working to gain fuller understanding for that which you still wonder about). It is another thing to ask a question, receive an answer, and then promote alternatives to the answer and/or continue to throw out questions that undermine the answer.

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

Hey, how’s he gonna know how to get through to schmucks like us unless we tell him? I just sent him another email, since I never got a reply to my last one about centering prayer.

Golly in the political system they say if you don’t voice your opinion, then don’t complain. Why should we gripe about the Church if we’re not able to face the Holy Father directly with our requests?

The email:

---

Dear Most Holy Father,

Welcome to your new position as our spiritual leader.

I know you are very interested in ending cafeteria Catholicism. As one who has been very much cafeteria in the past (and still recovering a bit) may I offer the following observation from my experience?

Some cafeteria Catholics feel the theological teachings of the Church are hard to understand fully unless they also have spiritual guidance of some form or other.

Is it possible that His Holiness could consider seeing that more teachings about mystical aspects of theology, the apophatic tradition in the Church, are made available to the laity? In particular, I would like to see a worldwide emphasis on all forms of Christian prayer, inluding contemplative forms for those in active vocations. These things have been great blessings to me and I think there are many who hunger for it and don’t even know it exists within Catholicism.

Thank you for your consideration, and for making yourself available to us as our leader on the Seat of Peter. I am so honored that you would trust us with your email address.

Thank you again,
(signed and addressed)

---

Alan

Centering prayer and contemplative prayer are 2 entirely different things. Also, the teachings of the Church are difficult to understand outside of prayer but the Holy Father is stopping noone from praying to God and seeking His heart.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

BigPaulie:

Dear Alan, The Church has been stressing other “aspects of theology” in lieu of hard doctrinal teachings for the past thirty-five years. Cafeteria Catholicism is the result ! :banghead:
BigPaulie

Do you even know what I’m talking about? Have you ever studied any mystical theology? It is what the saints were all about. It has nothing to do with departure from dogma, but it adds to dogma.

Where has mystical theology, or anything else having to do with the Church’s apophatic tradition, being taught? Most Catholics have never even heard of contemplative prayer, Lectio Divina, or anything whatsoever about the spiritual journey. How can it be harmful to teach these things in conjunction with dogmatism?

How does knowing about such things as pseudo-dyonesius (sp?) and the Cloud of the Unknowing harm traditional Catholicism or create cafeterias?

It sounds like you are one of those I’m talking about. Maybe you can start by reading a Mystical Theology text or consult your spiritual advisor.

Theology in the apologetic sense is but one dimension of a person. Would you roughly call it the science of what is True?

Mystical theology is the science of love, which does not always adhere to “normal” rules of logic in terms that make sense to us who are clueless in this realm.

Without mysticism, dogma is just lip service.

Alan

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

Do you even know what I’m talking about? Have you ever studied any mystical theology? It is what the saints were all about. It has nothing to do with departure from dogma, but it adds to dogma.

Where has mystical theology, or anything else having to do with the Church’s apophatic tradition, being taught? Most Catholics have never even heard of contemplative prayer, Lectio Divina, or anything whatsoever about the spiritual journey. How can it be harmful to teach these things in conjunction with dogmatism?

How does knowing about such things as pseudo-dyonesius (sp?) and the Cloud of the Unknowing harm traditional Catholicism or create cafeterias?

It sounds like you are one of those I’m talking about. Maybe you can start by reading a Mystical Theology text or consult your spiritual advisor.

Theology in the apologetic sense is but one dimension of a person. Would you roughly call it the science of what is True?

Mystical theology is the science of love, which does not always adhere to “normal” rules of logic in terms that make sense to us who are clueless in this realm.

Without mysticism, dogma is just lip service.

Alan

Focus on Jesus in the Eucharist in Adoration and you will find the type of prayer you seek.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Brad:

Centering prayer and contemplative prayer are 2 entirely different things. Also, the teachings of the Church are difficult to understand outside of prayer but the Holy Father is stopping noone from praying to God and seeking His heart.

I know about centering prayer and contemplative prayer.

Personally, I have studied, practiced, and written articles about centering prayer for the diocese newspaper, overseen by the conservatively popular bishop Olmstead.

Since there are other forms of prayer intended to invite contemplation, I did not want to pin it down that much. I was ecstatic when my wife told me a young associate priest actually led a congregation in Lectio Divina a few weeks ago during his sermon. (Of course many thought it was strange because it was quite different than what they were used to.)

The Holy Father has not withheld us from any form of prayer, nor did I tell him that he was. I’m simply expressing a hunger that I know many Catholics have for the whole Truth of the Church, and not just the bushel basket but the light hidden under it. Any Catholic who gets angry and frustrated with other Catholics has an attitude, and mysticism is the language of love by which you can learn to overcome these problems.

The Church has to have a pretty crusty, strict exterior to hold up for 2000 years. It also hides a heart, inside its cloisters, a treasure trove of wisdom and experience involving the spiritual journey. Vatican II said it was OK to let the cat out of the bag, in that holiness is for everyone.

Alan

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

Any Catholic who gets angry and frustrated with other Catholics has an attitude, and mysticism is the language of love by which you can learn to overcome these problems.

The Church has to have a pretty crusty, strict exterior to hold up for 2000 years. It also hides a heart, inside its cloisters, a treasure trove of wisdom and experience involving the spiritual journey. Vatican II said it was OK to let the cat out of the bag, in that holiness is for everyone.

Alan

Holiness is for everyone and the Church has provided everything we need to be holy. Most importantly, the sacraments. We can only be as holy as we are accessible to God and He is fully and completely accessible in the sacraments. Of course, we have to enter into the sacraments with an obedient heart towards Jesus.

Regarding the insinuation that anyone who gets frustrated or angry with another Catholic is doing something wrong, I beg to differ. There are Catholics out there that are purposely misleading children away from Church teaching and into their notions of truth. This leads to potentially serious harm to body and soul. I have a right to get angry when it occurs (Jesus got angry at times - it provokes a reaction - how we react is also key) and respond accordingly. It is not correct for me to stay angry all time about it. I also, however, have the right to be frustrated when Church leaders allow same Catholics to obstinantly teach heresy despite the concerns of the faithful. This is natural and human. This is no attidude.

 

[Nohome]

AlanFromWichita:

Depends on whose point of view.

In the eyes of the Church, yes.

In the eyes of any member of the Church except yourself, not if you keep your mouth shut about it.

Alan

At Mass, I look at the endless rows of families with two children, neatly spaced by two years and then read statistics like 2-3% of Catholic families use NFP (compared to 0.6% for everyone else) and wonder if the RCC can really claim to have a billion members.

Nohome

 

[Nohome]

AuntMartha:

I just wonder how long some people expect to go on and on trying to change Church doctrines, asking the same questions and getting the same answers, and still they won’t accept what the Church says. How many times are people going to bring up things like women’s ordination or gay marriage or whatever their pet CC cause is, hoping that if they just keep asking and asking, much like a nagging child at the grocery store, that the church will give in like a weary parent and grant them what they desire?

When does a Catholic’s own opinions and desires override the Church’s Authority? I mean, at what point do the questions stop, and one finally accepts that they can’t have it their way, however justified they think they are? Does the person keep asking and asking until eternity ends? Shouldn’t there be a moment when the person finally says, “Okay, I’ve brought this up hundreds of times and each time the Church gives the same answer. It’s very unlikely that the Church is going to change on this and maybe it’s time to stop insisting on change and accept what the Church’s authority says.”

The answer, in my case, was five years. Then I threw up my arms and said I quit. The Church that is, not my dissent.

Nohome

 

[BarbaraTherese]

at times - it provokes a reaction - how we react is also key) and respond accordingly. It is not correct for me to stay angry all time about it. I also, however, have the right to be frustrated when Church leaders allow same Catholics to obstinantly teach heresy despite the concerns of the faithful. This is natural and human. This is no attidude.

Sorry the above went in and this entire Post…due to a mouse that likes to do its own thing…the mouse attached to my comptuer, not me this time!

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Jesus got angry at times

…

…in fact lost the plot completely in The Temple and became violent…pushed too far!..nowadays he would have been put in jail or a psychiatric ward.

Anger is a perfectly normal human emotion…nothing abnormal about it…it is a healthy emotion in some instances and also a survival reaction - or can be. There is a case for anger … it is how we express it that introduces morality.

A dispassionate overview of Jesus as a human being could describe him as a somewhat angry young man from a read of the Gospel story of his life…as a newcomer to the tale. Indeed Jesus was quite capable of anger being a human being … and at times he expressed it in no uncertain terms.

Peace!
Regards
Barb