Pope Blames Refugee Crisis on 'God of Money,' 'Socio-Economic System That Is Bad, Unjust'

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I have said a number of times that in this discussion I have defined the term “modernism” to mean modern philosophy beginning with Rene Descartes. This was the beginning of a paradigm shift in philosophy. One could go back to the pre-Socratic philosophers and reasonably argue the thinking of Plato and Aristotle represented a subsequent paradigm shift in philosophy that only ended with the emergence of modern philosophy following the Scholastic period. Paradigm shifts do not occur at a precise moment of history. It is process that has roots in history. That the discovery of the Americas could have influenced the Reforation would seem a valid proposition; these things are not either/or propositions.
I’m persuaded that the Reformation was a crucial transition point. Discarding tradition, personal interpretation, questioning authority.
It is not argued that capitalism began in America [the U.S.] or that America was inhospitable to it. However, what is occurring in China and India with respect to capitalism is what it is and environmental damage is certainly part of it.
Part of it, yes, but not the most important thing about it.
Certainly, I speak only for myself and have only provided my perspective. The difference between a “consequent cultural paradigm” and a “fertile cultural paradigm” is perhaps semantic, but the cultural paradigm did not precede but evolved from modern philosophy, beginning with Descartes. The cultural paradigm is not tangible: it is a mindset or perspective.
Now we are talking about three aspects: philosophy of leading thinkers, popular opinion, and standard of living. Clearly there were many important thinkers who led this change including, but not limited to, Descartes. My claim is that you could not have had an industrial revolution without at leat a partial change in the popular culture. And, further, that the most important changes in popular culture are those that preceeded the industrial revolution.
It would seem very likely the Reformation (only in part as liberal thought but obviously not as a rejection of Christianity) was also a result of what became the primacy of Reason as a result of the paradigm shift of modern philosophy, with the result that during the Enlightenment the Immannance of God was no longer thought /]knowable
by Reason. Ethics would become subjective and God solely a matter of belief (faith) in philosophy–not exclusively so, of course, but as an historical development in philosophy that would become a cultural paradigm. This cultural paradigm evolved, is yet evolving and did not occur at a particular moment in time. The industrial revolution was a later paradigm shift, and this later historical paradigm shift cannot be properly ignored.
Your timeline is very odd. The Reformation began with Martin Luther’s 95 Theses are 1517. Who were the prior philosophers of Reason?

Here is a timeline:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Western_philosophers#1500-1550_CE
 
I’m persuaded that the Reformation was a crucial transition point. Discarding tradition, personal interpretation, questioning authority.
Of course the Reformation was a crucial event in the history of Christianity and the Church. However, the Reformation was only one manifestation of a paradigm shift that occurred for many reasons during the course of history. In philosophy, there was Descartes and in religion Martin Luther. Is Martin Luther the father of modern philosophy? It is modern philosophy and Descartes that are relevant to an understanding of the cultural paradigm as it is described in Laudato Si.
Now we are talking about three aspects: philosophy of leading thinkers, popular opinion, and standard of living. Clearly there were many important thinkers who led this change including, but not limited to, Descartes. My claim is that you could not have had an industrial revolution without at leat a partial change in the popular culture. And, further, that the most important changes in popular culture are those that preceeded the industrial revolution.
There were Renaissance philosophers who preceded Descartes. The much later industrial revolution was not an isolated phenomenon, and it occurred in relationship to development that preceded it. This is also true in the history of philosophy. The most important change in the history of philosophy, of significance here, occurred well before the industrial revolution, at the end of the Scholastic period and the beginning of modern philosophy. What is significant relative to the cultural paradigm described in Laudato Si did not occur prior to the industrial revolution. This may be confusing, but nevertheless it is necessary to understand it if one seeks an intellectual understanding of the encyclical separate from that of Catholic teaching.
Your timeline is very odd. The Reformation began with Martin Luther’s 95 Theses are 1517. Who were the prior philosophers of Reason?

Here is a timeline:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Western_philosophers#1500-1550_CE
Perhaps you should first realize, with respect to Laudato Si, the significance of your acknowledgment of a “fertile cultural paradigm” that, as you say, “laid the ground for” the consequent cultural paradigm. You may disagree as to its time of occurrance or about the consequences of it, but there it is, and it is clear you realize it. What is relevant to the encyclical is what occurred with respect to a cultural paradigm beginning with the industrial era of the late 1800’s. Again, the cultural paradigm is neither philosophy, science nor technology but a mindset that incorporates the objective perspective of science and technology and a subjective ethics. It is the cultural paradigm that developed beginning in this period, the late 1800’s, that is relevant to Laudato Si. This did not and could not have existed in 1507 any more than industrial capitalism could have existed in 1507.

As I have said, a paradigm shift is a process that does not occur at a precise moment of history and has its roots in the preceeding historical period. Rene Descartes (b. 1596) and the beginning of modern philosophy occurred only after a three-hundred year gap in major philosophy following the Scholastic period, and it was a long transitional period that saw philosophers such as Nicholas of Cusa and others who anticipated the Enlightenment. Petarch, Montaigne, Bruno, and Copernicus all lived prior to 1517. What is important here is that the modern period of philosophy began with Descartes and not Martin Luther. This is what is relevant to the encyclical. In that way, it addresses all Christians and everyone else as well.

So, we arrive back to the question of the OP: Did Pope Francis really say that the refugee crisis in Europe is caused by a “bad, unjust” socio-economic system that worships the “God of money”? According to the article you cited, he said exactly that. And it surely seems he believes it, not that it existed in 1507. I believe this can only be understood by a perspective of adequate generality.
 
Of course the Reformation was a crucial event in the history of Christianity and the Church. However, the Reformation was only one manifestation of a paradigm shift that occurred for many reasons during the course of history. In philosophy, there was Descartes and in religion Martin Luther. Is Martin Luther the father of modern philosophy? It is modern philosophy and Descartes that are relevant to an understanding of the cultural paradigm as it is described in Laudato Si.
No. You are missing something very important with your artificial distinction between philosphy and religion. Let’s assume that Martin Luther’s theology was rubbish. Let’s further assume that he had no intention of having any effect outside of theology. Still, it is is a plain fact that Martin Luther unleashed a crucial philosphical change in human culture. Martin Luther must be listed as one of the earliest and most influential philosophers of modernity insofar as the ideas he unleashed had a profound effect on both other thinkers and on popular culture.
There were Renaissance philosophers who preceded Descartes. The much later industrial revolution was not an isolated phenomenon, and it occurred in relationship to development that preceded it. This is also true in the history of philosophy. The most important change in the history of philosophy, of significance here, occurred well before the industrial revolution, at the end of the Scholastic period and the beginning of modern philosophy. What is significant relative to the cultural paradigm described in Laudato Si did not occur prior to the industrial revolution. This may be confusing, but nevertheless it is necessary to understand it if one seeks an intellectual understanding of the encyclical separate from that of Catholic teaching.
Perhaps you should first realize, with respect to Laudato Si, the significance of your acknowledgment of a “fertile cultural paradigm” that, as you say, “laid the ground for” the consequent cultural paradigm. You may disagree as to its time of occurrance or about the consequences of it, but there it is, and it is clear you realize it. What is relevant to the encyclical is what occurred with respect to a cultural paradigm beginning with the industrial era of the late 1800’s. Again, the cultural paradigm is neither philosophy, science nor technology but a mindset that incorporates the objective perspective of science and technology and a subjective ethics. It is the cultural paradigm that developed beginning in this period, the late 1800’s, that is relevant to Laudato Si. This did not and could not have existed in 1507 any more than industrial capitalism could have existed in 1507.
I agree that the Renaissance was important, though I’m hard pressed to think of any noteworthy Renaissance philosphers.

I agree that Pope Francis is unconcerned with the cultural paradigm before the industrial revolution. This is part of his failure to separate what is good from what is bad in modernity. He takes no interest in the cultural paradigm that gave rise to the industrial revolution.
As I have said, a paradigm shift is a process that does not occur at a precise moment of history and has its roots in the preceeding historical period. Rene Descartes (b. 1596) and the beginning of modern philosophy occurred only after a three-hundred year gap in major philosophy following the Scholastic period, and it was a long transitional period that saw philosophers such as Nicholas of Cusa and others who anticipated the Enlightenment. Petarch, Montaigne, Bruno, and Copernicus all lived prior to 1517. What is important here is that the modern period of philosophy began with Descartes and not Martin Luther. This is what is relevant to the encyclical. In that way, it addresses all Christians and everyone else as well.
This is one place, among others, where we disagree. For you, there is a mysterious philosphical gap between the Scholastic and the Moderns. For me, there are signifcant philosphical milestones including, most importantly, Martin Luther.
So, we arrive back to the question of the OP: Did Pope Francis really say that the refugee crisis in Europe is caused by a “bad, unjust” socio-economic system that worships the “God of money”? According to the article you cited, he said exactly that. And it surely seems he believes it, not that it existed in 1507. I believe this can only be understood by a perspective of adequate generality.
Sadly, nobody has disputed that he said this. It’s certainly is not out of character for him given what else we are hearing.
 
It matches other things he has said as well as Laudatio Si. What’s not to believe?
I have no reason to doubt that he said or believes it. His recent comment on Islam, that it is a religion of peace, helps to explain why he favors this explanation.
 
No. You are missing something very important with your artificial distinction between philosphy and religion. Let’s assume that Martin Luther’s theology was rubbish. Let’s further assume that he had no intention of having any effect outside of theology. Still, it is is a plain fact that Martin Luther unleashed a crucial philosphical change in human culture. Martin Luther must be listed as one of the earliest and most influential philosophers of modernity insofar as the ideas he unleashed had a profound effect on both other thinkers and on popular culture.
An artificial distinction between philosophy and religion? Maybe like the “artificial” distinction between Existentialism and Christianity? What, exactly, was the name of the philosophy introduced by Martin Luther?
 
An artificial distinction between philosophy and religion? Maybe like the “artificial” distinction between Existentialism and Christianity? What, exactly, was the name of the philosophy introduced by Martin Luther?
Yes, an artificial distinction between philosophy and religion. Because they cannot be so separated. They are not insulated spheres of existence. They are, at best, handy categories. Ideas freely flow between them and one has an influence on the other. In fact, theology is a branch of philosphy.

Pope Francis, himself, is quite interested in the intersection of religion and philosphy. (And in the intersection of morality and economics. And the intersection of religion and culture…)
 
Yes, an artificial distinction between philosophy and religion. Because they cannot be so separated. They are not insulated spheres of existence. They are, at best, handy categories. Ideas freely flow between them and one has an influence on the other. In fact, theology is a branch of philosphy.

Pope Francis, himself, is quite interested in the intersection of religion and philosphy. (And in the intersection of morality and economics. And the intersection of religion and culture…)
I see. What was the name of the handy category introduced by Martin Luther?
 
Thanks for the clarification. Is CatholicIsm then a philosophy, you think?
It is not merely a philosphy but it includes a theology and that is a branch of philosphy. It is philosphy in other ways as well.

“Philosophy is the study of the general and fundamental nature of reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy
 
I have no reason to doubt that he said or believes it. His recent comment on Islam, that it is a religion of peace, helps to explain why he favors this explanation.
I do not understand how his statement on Islam reflects on the actions of Europe. On the comments about the refugee situation are political, economic, and moral. The nature of Islam is rather theological.
 
Who manufactures the weapons Isis uses ? Who feeds their pockets with money to keep going ?
Is there a religious motive / purpose behind the sales ?
I honestly ignore the answer ,but I can speculate they would not have come this far without them.
My question is : are they “religious” or “consumers” in the eyes of the providers ?
I don t know.
 
I do not understand how his statement on Islam reflects on the actions of Europe. On the comments about the refugee situation are political, economic, and moral. The nature of Islam is rather theological.
It reflects a desire to avoid examination of the pathologies of the Middle East including, principally, Islam. Islam is not merely theological.
 
Is poverty ,inequality , exclusion any of them ?
Poverty is the natural state of man. Similarly inequality and exclusion.

On the other hand, life is better in Europe and they have a very generous welfare state, why not move there?
 
Poverty is the natural state of man. Similarly inequality and exclusion. These are not remarkable and explain nothing of the migration. But when you have only a hammer everything looks like a nail.
Not exactly.
When people have less.education ,live in poverty , and are excluded.from whatever system ,they become more vulnerable. And prey for predators such as ISIS.
I see how your country or mine live peacefully in religious diversity .
 
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