Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[bekalc]

Obama already knew Jesus. He thinks Jesus is GOOD with this stuff and wants him to do it.

People can think they know someone all they want, it doesn’t mean they actually do.

 

[StudentMI]

All he seems to be saying is that the message of God’s love must be proclaimed first and foremost. In today’s age the Church’s moral teaching on homosexuality, abortion and so on can seem alienating to many, as he relates with the case of a woman who has had an abortion, or the homosexuals who wrote to him in Buenos Aires. If you communicate first and foremost that God has come to not just judge but to redeem and save, you have a greater chance of winning people to the Church no matter what they’ve done. He says nothing about those teachings being invalid. There’s no liberal position here. That’s my interpretation.

 

[saveusfromhell]

I think there is no doubt the pope will have to come out and clarify.rightly or wronglly today many faithful catholics will feel that the pope has thrown them to the dogs.
the worlds media is reporting similar headlines to the thread title, so he will have to come out and say no this is not what I meant OR.
if he doesn’t then we will all have to accept that he wants the world to believe that these are no longer considered sins by the church as few will know other than those who frequent these sites the full interview

 

[Fevronia]

People can think they know someone all they want, it doesn’t mean they actually do.

Exactly. So to know Jesus means to know what he stands for as well i.e. the moral values. To LOVE God is to do his will. To do his will is to obey his commandments.

So you cannot tell someone about Jesus without telling them about his commandments.

 

[Fevronia]

All he seems to be saying is that the message of God’s love must be proclaimed first and foremost. In today’s age the Church’s moral teaching on homosexuality, abortion and so on can seem alienating to many, as he relates with the case of a woman who has had an abortion, or the homosexuals who wrote to him in Buenos Aires. If you communicate first and foremost that God has come to not just judge but to redeem and save, you have a greater chance of winning people to the Church no matter what they’ve done. He says nothing about those teachings being invalid. There’s no liberal position here.

Love = WILL/DO GOOD to the other

DO GOOD = Do the Will of God

Do the Will of God = Obey his commandments

I cannot see how one can create a disconnect between LOVE and COMMANDMENTS of God. Unless we take LOVE to be the emotional feeling, these things don’t make sense.

 

[LiberalPrincess]

Perhaps you need to read what he has said numerous times. What part of “the Church’s teachings are clear” on those matters can’t you understand?

Keep holding your breath that the Church is ever going to change on those issues. It is a moral impossibility. The constant recurrence of people who salivate with hope that this is even a possibility is predictable and amusing.

I admire Pope Francis’ willingness to deconstruct the calcified layers of dogma and tradition that is suffocating the church and so many of its followers… It’s a breath of fresh air to have a religious leader who speaks in terms of the spirit of the faith rather than in terms of the words on paper…

I like this Pope. Stir it up, Poppa Francis.

 

[ishii]

I think there is no doubt the pope will have to come out and clarify.rightly or wronglly today many faithful catholics will feel that the pope has thrown them to the dogs.
the worlds media is reporting similar headlines to the thread title, so he will have to come out and say no this is not what I meant OR.
if he doesn’t then we will all have to accept that he wants the world to believe that these are no longer considered sins by the church as few will know other than those who frequent these sites the full interview

That’s the thing - if the comments were taken out of context then people on these forums might after time and analysis realize the true intent, but the casual observer - which I believe the Church is trying to reach - will take what the media says and run with it. If the media says, “Pope says abortion and gay marriage, no big deal” then that is what they will hear. Already on this forums, we have the more liberal folks who have been saying to more conservative, “stop focusing on abortion and gays so much” now jumping for joy with these comments. They have heard what they want to hear. I don’t think the issue is any longer the substance of what the Pope may or may not have been wanting to say, but rather how it was interpreted and the ripple effect. And anything which causes moral confusion can’t be a good thing.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

All he seems to be saying is that the message of God’s love must be proclaimed first and foremost. In today’s age the Church’s moral teaching on homosexuality, abortion and so on can seem alienating to many, as he relates with the case of a woman who has had an abortion, or the homosexuals who wrote to him in Buenos Aires. If you communicate first and foremost that God has come to not just judge but to redeem and save, you have a greater chance of winning people to the Church no matter what they’ve done. He says nothing about those teachings being invalid. There’s no liberal position here. That’s my interpretation.

That’s the problem - we are all trying to figure out what the Pope was saying. The posts have all been saying, "I interpret what he said this way… " etc. How can the Pope instruct his flock or teach or go after the lost sheep if there is so much confusion after his interview?

Ishii

 

[ishii]

When I watch some talk about Obama, for example, I wonder how will we ever even get him to listen to us?
.

I think prayer, active opposition to what he is doing, prayer, active opposition, and more prayer.

And prayer.

Ishii

 

[TimSpalding]

Do you think its a solid pastoral strategy?

I do.

I also think it correctly expresses Catholic truth.

First, truth is not a big storeroom of true things–all true and therefore all equal. Some things are more important. Many today believe that the Catholic church is against gay people, or even correctly know its position on homosexual sex, and yet simply have not heard the core Christian message. No one is saved by opposing same-sex marriage; they are saved by Jesus Christ, who died for our sins and whose mercy knows no bounds. It may be old hat to us, but I assure you there are a lot of people who haven’t heard this, or heard it only as one thing in the box, as it were.

Boiling things down is indeed a sound pastoral strategy. Consider that Jesus himself was willing to boil things down to essentials–thus the Great Commandment. In saying that two sentences were the whole law and commandments he was not, of course, saying that all the details were irrelevant. But there is a core, and he was not afraid to go to that. Paul too knew that both love and spiritual gifts like prophecy were “true,” but spiritual gifts were utterly empty without love.

Second, as Francis said, truth is a relationship. It is not a storeroom of true things, but, say, a mother who loves a child, and takes things out of the storeroom to show and give to the child–one by one, starting with the most important things. You, perhaps, have been in that room a long time, and seen a lot of her gifts. Most have not even entered that room.

So now I’ve answered. Do YOU think it’s a sound pastoral strategy?

 

[livingwordunity]

I admire Pope Francis’ willingness to deconstruct the calcified layers of dogma and tradition that is suffocating the church and so many of its followers

Except that he didn’t change any doctrines or dogmas.

 

[StudentMI]

Love = WILL/DO GOOD to the other

DO GOOD = Do the Will of God

Do the Will of God = Obey his commandments

I cannot see how one can create a disconnect between LOVE and COMMANDMENTS of God. Unless we take LOVE to be the emotional feeling, these things don’t make sense.

Of course if one loves God one will obey His commandments, but God doesn’t stop loving someone when they sin.

 

[Buddyroe]

I can think of no one more poor, and defenseless than the unborn child. All the food stamps and social programs seemingly can do nothing to ward off the abortionist’s knife.

As to the “gay”, the perverts, they seem to have no shortage of advocates and resources.

Balance? Look to the dialectic, the synthesis, and to where such concepts were derived.

 

[opus101]

It often seems that the mainstream media is directly inspired by demonic intelligence. I think that’s how the MSM is so clever and tricky.

Our struggles are not only with flesh and blood. Our Holy Father is well aware of that, hence his admonition in the interview…and also, his calling for world-wide days of fasting and prayer, and world-wide days of Eucharistic adoration. It is possible that these problems can be “cast out” or mitigated, and our Pope is quite obedient to Our Lord about how that kind of thing gets done!

 

[TimSpalding]

That’s the problem - we are all trying to figure out what the Pope was saying. The posts have all been saying, "I interpret what he said this way… " etc. How can the Pope instruct his flock or teach or go after the lost sheep if there is so much confusion after his interview?

I think you want the Pope to teach like an oracle, or perhaps like a drill sergeant. Real teachers create interpretive space. They provoke. They invite what Francis calls discernment.

Good grief, Jesus did exactly this. Parables are about the least cut-and-dried ways of teaching possible!

 

[LiberalPrincess]

I can think of no one more poor, and defenseless than the unborn child. All the food stamps and social programs seemingly can do nothing to ward off the abortionist’s knife.

As to the “gay”, the perverts, they seem to have no shortage of advocates and resources.

Balance? Look to the dialectic, the synthesis, and to where such concepts were derived.

Please tell me you did not equate “gays” to perverts. One thing I know, Francis would not approve of that.

I truly believe Francis is trying to drag the RC church (with people like you kicking and screaming into the 21th century) I am also betting that many of the Cardinals who elected him are kicking themselves as well. If anyone can begin the turnaround of the Catholic Church to a place of compassion and mercy, it would have to be Francis.

 

[ishii]

I think you want the Pope to teach like an oracle, or perhaps like a drill sergeant. Real teachers create interpretive space. They provoke. They invite what Francis calls discernment.

Good grief, Jesus did exactly this. Parables are about the least cut-and-dried ways of teaching possible!

Oh he could be direct as well. Remember when he drove the money changers from the temple? Didn’t use parables for that. And he said, “eat my body and drink my blood.” One would hope that the Pope does not inadvertently give ammo to the secular media to distort.

Ishii

 

[TimSpalding]

Please tell me you did not equate “gays” to perverts. One thing I know, Francis would not approve of that.

I truly believe Francis is trying to drag the RC church (with people like you kicking and screaming into the 21th century)

Well, exactly. Say that Francis hasn’t changed Catholic doctrine on gays and everyone will jump on the bandwagon. Call gays “perverts” and there’s a deafening, approving silence.

The Catholic church will have absorbed what Francis is saying when there’s as much said against such a view on a Catholic forum as the “traditionalists” can stir up against attending a mass in a living language or women wearing pants.

 

[Fevronia]

I do.

I also think it correctly expresses Catholic truth.

First, truth is not a big storeroom of true things–all true and therefore all equal. Some things are more important. Many today believe that the Catholic church is against gay people, or even correctly know its position on homosexual sex, and yet simply have not heard the core Christian message. No one is saved by opposing same-sex marriage; they are saved by Jesus Christ, who died for our sins and whose mercy knows no bounds. It may be old hat to us, but I assure you there are a lot of people who haven’t heard this, or heard it only as one thing in the box, as it were.

Boiling things down is indeed a sound pastoral strategy. Consider that Jesus himself was willing to boil things down to essentials–thus the Great Commandment. In saying that two sentences were the whole law and commandments he was not, of course, saying that all the details were irrelevant. But there is a core, and he was not afraid to go to that. Paul too knew that both love and spiritual gifts like prophecy were “true,” but spiritual gifts were utterly empty without love.

Second, as Francis said, truth is a relationship. It is not a storeroom of true things, but, say, a mother who loves a child, and takes things out of the storeroom to show and give to the child–one by one, starting with the most important things. You, perhaps, have been in that room a long time, and seen a lot of her gifts. Most have not even entered that room.

So now I’ve answered. Do YOU think it’s a sound pastoral strategy?

I personally do not.

I feel that it is too grounded in a modern conception of a mother. The usual conception of a mother I am used to is one where the mother does advise the children actively and corrects them all the time as soon as she even sees them heading down the wrong road.

I also feel that to love is to essentially obey the commandments and is a primary act of the will. So I may not feel the slightest emotion but I can still love by doing what is good. I do that not because of some emotional connection to God but because I want to do his will.

I also feel that the assumption “many will enter if the Church truly showed herself” is false. We have tried this approach for 50 years (albeit with Benedicts Papacy excluded). All we saw were people leaving by the droves. Pope Francis is merely continuing what was there before Benedict and I cannot see any good fruits coming from it. To me, I believe that many will simply reject the gospel because they simply prefer darkness to light. Since there is no Scriptural basis to the idea that many will accept the Church if they truly came to know her, I simply reject it.

We cannot forget that Jesus Christ himself, the best preacher of the gospel one could have, was rejected by many during his time. So this idea that lets open up the gates and not emphasize somethings so that people will come to me is not grounded in any theological hope.

Meanwhile, as we stop emphasizing, blood of innocents is spilled (abortion), people undergo gender changes (happens in Canada now), Gay marriage becomes the norm, society becomes more chaotic and birth rates decline.

To fly in the face of all of this, you have clear evidence in Africa and Asia that does not do any of this “merciful” approach having a Church that is thriving more than ours.

So no, I feel that this method will lead us nowhere. But I pray for the Holy Father.

 

[TimSpalding]

Oh he could be direct as well. Remember when he drove the money changers from the temple? Didn’t use parables for that. And he said, “eat my body and drink my blood.” One would hope that the Pope does not inadvertently give ammo to the secular media to distort.

The word “ammo” and “ammunition” keeps coming up. Don’t give ammo to these people. Don’t give ammo to those people.

How about “Quit the violent and inflated war talk”?

The culture war is over. The ultras on both sides won. Christ lost. He lost when people starting talking about truth as gunplay.