Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[GaryTaylor]

My problem with much of this is that it seems to me an attack on the many good and faithful priests and laity, accusing them of having been heartless, uncharitable, and focusing, in a judgmental way no less, on ‘only’ abortion, homosexuality, and birth control, when such is hardly the case. As evidenced by the fact that anyone here who’s commented on that can barely remember a single homily on these subjects.

Yes, it has given ammunition and just made it harder to be a good Catholic and stand up for the Church’s teachings.

Yes and they have been. In fact I have seen ridiculous numbers of children turned away from baptism simply because they were born out of wedlock and their mother wasn’t a practicing Catholic. So they should be left for dead? I think not.

If this is really how the Pope feels, I can only say, thank you, Francis, for the slap in the face. I continue to hope he has been woefully mischaracterized by those determined to believe the Church will finally preach immorality. Sadly, his own words make that hard to believe.

I say thank you for offering a hand out to the truly lost.

He is absolutely right–and every true Christian already knew it and was practicing it–that we must meet people where they are with love and compassion. Christian AIDS hospices, crisis pregnancy centers and more were already doing this. It is a ridiculous charge that they were busy chastising and lambasting these people. But Francis could have said the same thing without calling anyone small-minded or obsessed.

Not from my seat in Catholicism.

Furthermore, I find it ironic that some people on this thread are lecturing others about supposedly being judgmental. Isn’t that in itself judgmental? Not to mention claiming to know someone else’s heart and mind?

No-one said you shouldn’t judge peoples “actions”, but you have no clue to their “intentions”?

 

[AdvanceAlways]

GaryTaylor, can you see though why some of us feel like we’ve been personally insulted by the Pope’s words? When he refers to a large segment of the faithful as small minded for simply doing as the Church says, that is going to cause hurt and pain.

 

[Country_Gal]

We know what is in a person’s heart by what they say. LiberalPrincess wrote of pro-choice (pro-abortion) and pro-contraception Catholics. You can’t be either and be a Catholic. Her words told us what she believes and thus what is in her heart.

KNK

We are Catholic by virtue of Baptism in the Catholic Church or Confirmation. That is very clearly spelled out in Church teaching.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

We are Catholic by virtue of Baptism in the Catholic Church or Confirmation. That is very clearly spelled out in Church teaching.

But Catholics can excommunicate themselves.

 

[Darryl1958]

Good for Pope Francis! He reminds me of Pope John Paul. No, not John Paul II who presided over the church when the molestations and cover-ups took place, but John Paul who was Pope for only about 33 days, who some say was planning to investigate the Vatican Bank and others say was planning to remove the ban on contraception.

• kathie :bowdown:

Do you think he may have been murdered?

 

[GaryTaylor]

GaryTaylor, can you see though why some of us feel like we’ve been personally insulted by the Pope’s words? When he refers to a large segment of the faithful as small minded for simply doing as the Church says, that is going to cause hurt and pain.

Sure I do. And I am of the conviction their is no greater of an issue than the abortion problem in particular in the US. Its commendable you should pick up this battle. I pray daily more do.

 

[johnlal]

He is clearly not saying “Let’s change the church’s teachings on controversial issues”. Rather, I hear him saying “Let’s not talk about them so much”.

 

[CradleJourney]

I think that those who have not bothered to fully understand Church teachings in the past will not bother to fully understand them now - no matter how it is presented.

On the other hand, I think Pope Francis’s manner may prompt those who have felt a stirring in their hearts to learn more to be less fearful and ‘come to the table’ so to speak.

Quote from Pope Francis in the interview - bold mine:
“I have a dogmatic certainty: God is in every person’s life. God is in everyone’s life. Even if the life of a person has been a disaster, even if it is destroyed by vices, drugs or anything else—God is in this person’s life. You can, you must try to seek God in every human life. Although the life of a person is a land full of thorns and weeds, there is always a space in which the good seed can grow. You have to trust God.”

So, though I have not read every post in this thread, I do believe that each person here is seeking a closer walk with God - and most of the negatives I have read deal with fear (fear the Pope’s words are being misunderstood, fear the Church will abandon her position on these topics, fear of how those outside the Church will view us, fear for those who may stay in sin somehow because of what they think the Pope says, etc.).

Why not simply trust God? Why not believe in the Word which says fear not? For me this is the true and lifelong test of faith - one of which Pope Francis regularly reminds me.

 

[einna]

Trust me, I understand your frustration and I completely agree with you. I know what you mean about family members who bash the Church. The Pope’s statement still indeed contained troubling elements, especially in regards to the small minded and obsessed lines. Do remember though, an interview is not infallible. If people attempt to use Francis’ words to bash your faith, just remember the Gospel; you will be hated because of Christ.

• truly think, being raised by the Jesuits, that Pope Francis is telling all of us to be open minded to all the needs of the world, not just one or two. Again, I thaink God that there are people who spend so much time fighting abortion, but I do not want to be judged by them because I do not. Not because I do not think it is important, but because I spend my time on other causes.

Just the way Pope Francis stated things has the world talking, which is bringing awareness to the abortion issue. I really think this has more to do with how you are interpreting the article. If you read the American Magazine article, I cannot see how you could think this man could possible not care about abortion, of course he does. Again we have lost focus of God’s love and forgiveness in out Church and he wants us to remember those things.*

 

[AdvanceAlways]

I think that those who have not bothered to fully understand Church teachings in the past will not bother to fully understand them now - no matter how it is presented.

On the other hand, I think Pope Francis’s manner may prompt those who have felt a stirring in their hearts to learn more to be less fearful and ‘come to the table’ so to speak.

But if the stirring of the heart leads them to incorrect conclusions about the Church, that is not good. If they come to the table, and become Catholic, while now believing that they can contracept, abort and accept gay marriage, there is no victory.

 

[Country_Gal]

:I think some of the problems that Pope Francis referred to are evident in this thread. People who want a smaller, more exclusive Church.

I just want to say, those attitudes in my former parish helped drive me out, and I’m no liberal, I’m quite the middle of the road type of gal.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

• truly think, being raised by the Jesuits, that Pope Francis is telling all of us to be open minded to all the needs of the world, not just one or two. Again, I thaink God that there are people who spend so much time fighting abortion, but I do not want to be judged by them because I do not. Not because I do not think it is important, but because I spend my time on other causes.

Just the way Pope Francis stated things has the world talking, which is bringing awareness to the abortion issue. I really think this has more to do with how you are interpreting the article. If you read the American Magazine article, I cannot see how you could think this man could possible not care about abortion, of course he does. Again we have lost focus of God’s love and forgiveness in out Church and he wants us to remember those things.*

I understand your point of view, but I truly believe you are setting up a false dichotomy. At least speaking for myself, I am not just focusing on abortion. I absolutely know there are more than 2 issues. What I don’t appreciate is being told by the Pope that I am promoting small minded doctrines.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

:I think some of the problems that Pope Francis referred to are evident in this thread. People who want a smaller, more exclusive Church.

I just want to say, those attitudes in my former parish helped drive me out, and I’m no liberal, I’m quite the middle of the road type of gal.

We don’t want a more exclusive Church, we want a Church where people accept ALL the dogmas and doctrines of the Church.

 

[zab]

And this is exactly my frustration. I agree with your friend. And yet, it implies that there *were *millions of Catholics out there screaming and yelling at people to begin with. I’m sure there are some unpleasant people among Catholics (in fact, I know some of them), but I personally have seen only love, gentleness, and kindness among those the many Catholics and pro-life workers I’ve known.

I, myself, have relatives and good friends, even very close friends, who are gay, liberal, pagan, a barely-former swinger in an open marriage, atheists, pro-abortion, etc. I have one who consistently bashes the church, and I continually respond without yelling or name-calling, even in the face of some very ugly things being said to me or in my presence about the Catholic Church, pro-lifers, conservatives, Christians, etc. (And btw, these people are bringing the topics up about 90% or more of the time, not me.)

And now my own pope appears to be suggesting I am small-minded and obsessed? Now people are going to paint a whole bunch of us as having been yelling and hateful and judgmental when it simply wasn’t happening?

Did you read the same interview that I did? And this is what you got from it???
Here is a quote where the term “small minded rules” appears. I wonder why no one is blasting our Holy Father for saying that some confessors are too lax.:

I ask Pope Francis: “What does the church need most at this historic moment? Do we need reforms? What are your wishes for the church in the coming years? What kind of church do you dream of?”
Pope Francis begins by showing great affection and immense respect for his predecessor: “Pope Benedict has done an act of holiness, greatness, humility. He is a man of God.
the thing the church needs most today is the ability to heal wounds and to warm the hearts of the faithful; it needs nearness, proximity. I see the church as a field hospital after battle.“I see clearly,” the pope continues, “that the thing the church needs most today is the ability to heal wounds and to warm the hearts of the faithful; it needs nearness, proximity. I see the church as a field hospital after battle. It is useless to ask a seriously injured person if he has high cholesterol and about the level of his blood sugars! You have to heal his wounds. Then we can talk about everything else. Heal the wounds, heal the wounds… And you have to start from the ground up.
“The church sometimes has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules. The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you. And the ministers of the church must be ministers of mercy above all. The confessor, for example, is always in danger of being either too much of a rigorist or too lax. Neither is merciful, because neither of them really takes responsibility for the person. The rigorist washes his hands so that he leaves it to the commandment. The loose minister washes his hands by simply saying, ‘This is not a sin’ or something like that. In pastoral ministry we must accompany people, and we must heal their wounds.

 

[Country_Gal]

We don’t want a more exclusive Church, we want a Church where people accept ALL the dogmas and doctrines of the Church.

You may say that, but I disbelieve you by virtue of your focus and energy and many other words on this thread.

 

[shawnbm]

I have read a lot on this interview the last 24 hours and I can see how some (laity and hierarchy) who think they are wrongly being categorized as “obsessing” over moral teachings of the Church have taken a bit of offense. I can also see how many have left the Church or criticized her without leaving because the perceived “small mindedness” of some in blogospheres and the hierarchy. His Holiness is trying to have Holy Mother Church serve as the bridge over the troubled waters of sin, even if it means the bridge gets wet. She still is called to reach out to those who are living in sin and in need of confession and redemption. All of the Catholic world is called to strike a balance and to not talk over and over about only certain things. He is of the belief that–taking a line from a famous movie–“if you preach it and act on it, they will come”–back to the Church and may be better catechized and learn the other things better and with more clarity. First things first, and many Catholics do NOT know their faith as set forth in the Catechism. They mostly know what other people or the media tell them because too many don’t read Scripture or the CCC, to say nothing of papal encyclicals or synodal statements.

Pope Francis seems to want to see outreach, forgiveness, mercy, with a re-approachment to the Sacraments. Get them back in and THEN work on teaching them the error of their beliefs, not in a confrontational way (which is the spirit of a lot of talk radio, blogs and in print media), but with patience, kindness and mercy. Did not the prophet Micah say it so well in Mic. 6:7-8 ? Peace to all, and REJOICE in the LORD for He is goodness and love at all times to all of His creatures.

 

[GaryTaylor]

But Catholics can excommunicate themselves.

And they do all the time. Its our responsibility in charitable dialogue to address these people where we find them, and where possible. Not further push them away from the Lords Church. This does not happen overnight without the Holy Spirit. We do the watering and plant the seed. God supplies the Grace. But we have to meet them on common ground so they truly know they are loved and not condemned. Its mercy all the way till the Lord judges them.

Look at St Augustine. God sent him, a self admitted sinner to defend HIs Church. And that occurred through a very long period of intercession. We don’t need to change the message, we need patience and love in addressing it.

 

[CradleJourney]

But if the stirring of the heart leads them to incorrect conclusions about the Church, that is not good. If they come to the table, and become Catholic, while now believing that they can contracept, abort and accept gay marriage, there is no victory.

But that is what catechesis is for - which I agree is in need of serious work for most parishes.

I put forth that if they never try to come to God because they feel the Church has already condemned them - then there is no victory either.

 

[Country_Gal]

What I saw, in my former parish, was the ultra-conservative people forming their own exclusive prayer groups, shunning others, refusing to shake hands during sign of peace, and getting angry about a lot of things. CCD done at home, no mixing with the common parish kids. No welcoming smiles allowed!

To me, that is a big fat turn off.

 

[manualman]

You may say that, but I disbelieve you by virtue of your focus and energy and many other words on this thread.

Do I understand you correctly that you perceive people wanting others to leave the church so that it is smaller and more ‘exclusive?’ Who do you suppose they want to exclude?

In my experience, the only ones being excluded are those who wish to declare evil to be good, not those who are sorrowful for the wrongs they know they have committed.