Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[jimcintosh]

…we cannot bash these people over the head with rules first. We must start with loving them…

Rules about morality have brought few to faith; faith has brought many to living a moral life.

For me, the most important thing that the pope said was about who he is right at the beginning of the interview. He did not identify himself as the pope and the vicar of Christ, but said simply, "I am a sinner. This is the most accurate definition. It is not a figure of speech, a literary genre. I am a sinner.”

He is a sinner, as we all are. He is a sinner who can only live with the knowledge of the mercy of God flowing from the love that God has for each of us. This is the only way any of us can survive when faced with the magnitude of the sins we have committed and those that we will commit in the future.

But, we do not begin with our sins. When most people die these days, we say, “They are in a better place.” Most people think of themselves as basically good people. It is only in faith that we can begin to realize the magnitude of our sins and our constant need and hope and trust in God’s mercy.

The beginning place, then, as I read what the pope said, is there. That God is love. That God’s love for you is limitless. That there is nothing that can separate you from God’s love. Romans 8:38-39: “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

From a faith in God, we begin to learn and accept morality and, therefore, our sinfulness.

Nothing that the pope said is new. He is just reminding us of the fundamentals.

 

[zab]

I’d simply like to ask Pope Francis, are all the people who have gone to jail over protesting children being murdered via abortion just a bunch of obsessed fanatics? Are the people who attend March for Life events all over the world a bunch of obsessed fanatics? The truly obsessed are the purveyors of death in society, not those standing up for moral truths.

I know the Pope had some pro-life quotes today, I know Pope Francis is pro life, but I still can’t help but be scandalized by his words in this interview.

I don’t know where you get that from his interview.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

I don’t know where you get that from his interview.

I’m just really struggling with his choice of words, in reference to “small mindedness” and “obsession.”

 

[Lormar]

This interview was conducted in Italian. Who translated it into English?

 

[shawnbm]

{i don’t wish to get too involved in the current discussion, so i’m just adding my own views/thoughts after having read the entire interview.}

it seems to me that pope francis is essentially getting at going to the original source when dealing with things. When talking about st. Thomas aquinas, he makes a mention that you can really only fully experience his genius by reading what he, himself wrote. You must go first to the original source. Likewise, when dealing with people and ministering to them, we must go to the original source of everything: God. Who is god? God is love. Thus, we must begin ministering with love. Then, we move on to the other things.

As others have stated, the pope is not changing church teaching. Also, i did not see any instance of him calling anyone “obsessive” or “small-minded.” from that section, i gathered two things from reading the interview: The first is that pope francis is saying that he doesn’t like it how people are telling him that he was doing a bad job by not immediately talking about abortion, same-sex “marriage,” etc. The second is that we cannot bash these people over the head with rules first. We must start with loving them, then helping them on the right path – explaining the rules to them so that they may hopefully adhere to them. Personally, i did not read it as “stop talking about this stuff. Catholics are becoming too obsessive over trivial things like abortion, etc.” instead, i saw it as, “love the person first. Yes, this woman had an abortion. However, we need to look at the root of the problem. Afterward, we can bring her back into the light.”

in regards to pope benedict xvi and the continuation of the papacy through pope francis, this is how i view it, personally. Pope benedict xvi helped to strengthen the core from the inside. He was {is} an amazing man who certainly helped a great multitude of people grow in faith. He set a strong foundation of believers. Now, pope francis wants to take the foundation and build upon it. He does not wish to change or destroy it but simply build.

One final note, i don’t think pope francis was implying that everyone who deals with these issues as unloving. He states that he believes “some” are. From what i’ve read here in this thread, it appears that we are not included in this “some” but are {should be} the models of others. For the most part, though it has been heated, i have seen charity all around, and that is very encouraging.

this ^

 

[SaintAugustine]

Man…why is the Pope so obsessed with Abortion?

catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2584/pope_francis_to_catholic_doctors_bear_witness_to_the_culture_of_life.aspx#.UjyOuRaYVmB

Again, Francis spoke of the “throwaway culture” that leads to the elimination of human beings, especially those who are physically and socially weakest. “Our response to this mentality is a ‘yes’ to life, decisive and without hesitation. The first right of the human person is his life. He has other goods and some are precious, but this one is fundamental – the condition for all the others”.

Reiterating that in recent times, human life in its entirety has become a priority for the Magisterium of the Church, the Pope emphasised that “goods have a price and can be sold, but people have dignity, they are worth more than goods and have no price”.

**Francis asked those present to “bear witness to and disseminate this ‘culture of life’ … remind all, through actions and words, that in all its phases and at any age, life is always sacred and always of quality. **And not as a matter of faith, but of reason and science! There is no human life more sacred than another, just as there exists no human life qualitatively more meaningful than another”.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

Well, at this point, there is nothing more I can really say other than thank you to everyone who has offered their insights, opinions and anecdotes. Speaking only for me, I’m not in the crisis state I was in yesterday. At this point, I’ll pray for the Holy Father and pray that he helps draw the world to the Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation. That is all I can do.

 

[SaintAugustine]

Well, at this point, there is nothing more I can really say other than thank you to everyone who has offered their insights, opinions and anecdotes. Speaking only for me, I’m not in the crisis state I was in yesterday. At this point, I’ll pray for the Holy Father and pray that he helps draw the world to the Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation. That is all I can do.

He spoke today about Abortion. I doubt the mainstream media will correct their previous misunderstanding. Keep praying…

 

[DlandFan06]

without a foundation of love, all the blunt truth in the world is useless. we must focus on the most absolute fundamental truth- God’s call for us to share in his love, only this truth can bear fruit capable of combatting sin, as opposed to mere obsession and fixation on the sin

What does that mean though? Does that mean “I love you, now sin freely?” This will be misinterpreted by people that they can continue sinning because God loves them. There are right and wrongs, you can’t dance around that.

 

[SaintAugustine]

What does that mean though? Does that mean “I love you, now sin freely?” This will be misinterpreted by people that they can continue sinning because God loves them. There are right and wrongs, you can’t dance around that.

No. It is “don’t sin, sin is spiritual death, but I still love you.” The Pope was saying that we sometimes put too much emphasis on the first part and not enough on the second.

 

[wisdom_3_5]

.

I still would like to know what he means by this:Quote:
“The people itself constitutes a subject. And the church is the people of God on the journey through history, with joys and sorrows. Thinking with the church, therefore, is my way of being a part of this people.** And all the faithful, considered as a whole, are infallible in matters of belief, and the people display this infallibilitas in credendo, this infallibility in believing, through a supernatural sense of the faith of all the people walking together. **This is what I understand today as the ‘thinking with the church’ of which St. Ignatius speaks. When the dialogue among the people and the bishops and the pope goes down this road and is genuine, then it is assisted by the Holy Spirit. So this thinking with the church does not concern theologians only."

Someone may have beaten me to this and it may not fully answer but this quote from the article comes a bit later:

*“After a brief pause, Pope Francis emphasizes the following point, in order to avoid misunderstandings: “And, of course, we must be very careful not to think that this infallibilitas of all the faithful I am talking about in the light of Vatican II is a form of populism. No; it is the experience of ‘holy mother the hierarchical church,’ as St. Ignatius called it, the church as the people of God, pastors and people together. The church is the totality of God’s people.”

• (Emphasis mine)

 

[opus101]

I’m just really struggling with his choice of words, in reference to “small mindedness” and “obsession.”

Right now, I can’t find the “small-mindedness” part of the interview. Can you direct me to it?

As far as the “obsession” statement, here is what he said:

“The Church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently.”

This is so true! To answer the question “What is Catholicism?”, we cannot say “Catholicism consists in being against abortion, the various forms of sodomy, divorce etc., etc.”

The Creed mentions none of those things, however they all flow from it.
They are all under it’s umbrella. It is a unified whole, not a collection of various beliefs.
If we believe in the Creed and in the Church as Christ Himself set it up to be, that carries everything else with it.

 

[TMC]

No. It is “don’t sin, sin is spiritual death, but I still love you.” The Pope was saying that we sometimes put too much emphasis on the first part and not enough on the second.

I think it is: “God loves you, and so do I. You and I are both sinners, but God loves us and I love you. Let’s work together to try to be better people, despite both our sins.” That message is true, honest and resonates with people.

 

[zab]

It is a message of hope for those who feel hopeless.

 

[Lormar]

Someone may have beaten me to this and it may not fully answer but this quote from the article comes a bit later:

"After a brief pause, Pope Francis emphasizes the following point, in order to avoid misunderstandings: “And, of course, we must be very careful not to think that this infallibilitas of all the faithful I am talking about in the light of Vatican II is a form of populism. No; it is the experience of ‘holy mother the hierarchical church,’ as St. Ignatius called it, the church as the people of God, pastors and people together. The church is the totality of God’s people."
(Emphasis mine)

I genuinely am grateful to you, Wisdom )), for providing me with that which I already read, but it still doesn’t help. Since when does the infallibility of faith reside in the people even if he does say “pastors and people together”? Maybe it will help if I tell you, or anyone else here that might want to take a shot at this, how I read it. This is the problem with stuff like this; I can’t call Francis up, or zip him off an email, and ask “Can you explain to me further what you meant by this…?”

What I got out of it is: Francis is saying that the people define the faith infallibly, and that the Holy Spirit, speaking through the majority of the people, tell the pope what next should be infallibly defined in matters of faith.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

I genuinely am grateful to you, Wisdom )), for providing me with that which I already read, but it still doesn’t help. Since when does the infallibility of faith reside in the people even if he does say “pastors and people together”? Maybe it will help if I tell you, or anyone else here that might want to take a shot at this, how I read it. This is the problem with stuff like this; I can’t call Francis up, or zip him off an email, and ask “Can you explain to me further what you meant by this…?”

What I got out of it is: Francis is saying that the people define the faith infallibly, and that the Holy Spirit, speaking through the majority of the people, tell the pope what next should be infallibly defined in matters of faith.

Writing him a letter and including your phone number may just get you a cold call

 

[Lormar]

Writing him a letter and including your phone number may just get you a cold call

Hahahaha! Hope he doesn’t call in the middle of the night!

What is his address? And what assurance do I have he will actually get it? Do I have to put “Conscience Material” on the envelope?

 

[holyrood]

As if right wingers do not see daily struggles? We may come to different conclusions but that doesn’t mean we don’t understand the daily grind. We live it just as much as left wingers do.

Exactly. What is all this about ‘ordinary’ Catholics and ‘understanding daily struggles’ as if anyone who is conservative or believes in marriage or valuing a child’s life is somehow out of touch and living on a cloud with everything being handed to us?

I work two jobs to support my children. Between work, errands, cleaning the house, laundry, I’m frequently going 14 or 16 hours a day. But because I would actually cherish my unborn child’s life instead of go to an abortion mill, this makes me not an ‘ordinary Catholic’ or out of touch? That concept is false and offensive.

 

[kelvinf]

I am preparing to travel hundred of kilometers to participate in my first ever March for Life in Berlin. I haven’t read this thread but if the Pope really said that we are obsessed with abortion for instance, then that is very sad and discouraging. I mean, the Pope attended the last March for Life in Rome, a move that was highly praised.

I am just hoping that he didn’t mean that we should start caring less about abortion. We need to do more and not less.

 

[wisdom_3_5]

I genuinely am grateful to you, Wisdom )), for providing me with that which I already read, but it still doesn’t help. Since when does the infallibility of faith reside in the people even if he does say “pastors and people together”? Maybe it will help if I tell you, or anyone else here that might want to take a shot at this, how I read it. This is the problem with stuff like this; I can’t call Francis up, or zip him off an email, and ask “Can you explain to me further what you meant by this…?”.

I’m thinking along the lines of Tradition . . . Formally defining the beliefs/practices of the Church that are present, such as* Theotokos* or the popular movement for sainthood etc. I could be way off base though, with JPII I had a lot of trouble just getting my brain around what he was saying, Benedict XVI I just got straighaway, and now with Francis I’m having to stretch my brain in a different way

What I got out of it is: Francis is saying that the people define the faith infallibly, and that the Holy Spirit, speaking through the majority of the people, tell the pope what next should be infallibly defined in matters of faith.

I didn’t get that on the first reading, but I can see it now and I honestly don’t think that’s what he means.

Francis mentions “this infallibility in believing, through a supernatural sense of the faith of all the people walking together.” Maybe its just the idea that we all believe in God and it continues to this day, the mystery of faith that has us all united.