Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[_Abyssinia]

If Pope Francis had said this, what would you think?

Some further thoughts on the “America” interview
September 20, 2013 06:47 EST
By Carl E. Olson

Does the following sound like one of the more hotly discussed sections in the America interview with Pope Francis?

We should not allow our faith to be drained by too many discussions of multiple, minor details, but rather, should always keep our eyes in the first place on the greatness of Christianity.

I remember, when I used go to Germany in the 1980s and '90s, that I was asked to give interviews and I always knew the questions in advance. They concerned the ordination of women, contraception, abortion and other such constantly recurring problems.

If we let ourselves be drawn into these discussions, the Church is then identified with certain commandments or prohibitions; we give the impression that we are moralists with a few somewhat antiquated convictions, and not even a hint of the true greatness of the faith appears. I therefore consider it essential always to highlight the greatness of our faith - a commitment from which we must not allow such situations to divert us.

In this perspective I would now like to continue by completing last Tuesday’s reflections and to stress once again: what matters above all is to tend one’s personal relationship with God, with that God who revealed himself to us in Christ.

That was part of an address given Pope Benedict XVI in November 2006 to the bishops of Switzerland. It bears a rather remarkable similarity to this remark by Pope Francis:

We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.

The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently. Proclamation in a missionary style focuses on the essentials, on the necessary things: this is also what fascinates and attracts more, what makes the heart burn, as it did for the disciples at Emmaus. We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel. The proposal of the Gospel must be more simple, profound, radiant. It is from this proposition that the moral consequences then flow.

Was Benedict downplaying the importance—morally, spiritually, culturally, politically—of abortion, contraception, and the like? No, of course not. He was, like Pope Francis after him, locating and pointing to the center of the Faith, from which all else flows, including what is means to be human, the value and dignity of human life, the nature of marriage, and so forth. Benedict discussed those issues further in that 2006 address, then concluded with this remark:

I think that this is the great task we have before us: on the one hand, not to make Christianity seem merely morality, but rather a gift in which we are given the love that sustains us and provides us with the strength we need to be able to “lose our own life”. On the other hand, in this context of freely given love, we need to move forward towards ways of putting it into practice, whose foundation is always offered to us by the Decalogue, which we must interpret today with Christ and with the Church in a progressive and new way.

This same perspective was articulated as well by Pope Francis:

If the Christian is a restorationist, a legalist, if he wants everything clear and safe, then he will find nothing. Tradition and memory of the past must help us to have the courage to open up new areas to God. … Instead of being just a church that welcomes and receives by keeping the doors open, let us try also to be a church that finds new roads, that is able to step outside itself and go to those who do not attend Mass, to those who have quit or are indifferent. The ones who quit sometimes do it for reasons that, if properly understood and assessed, can lead to a return. But that takes audacity and courage.

__

 

[josethomas]

In context Church looses its moral relevance if it does not stand for the right cause. Actually what I feel is that the whole episode has really confused me.
I prefer to live in a Church where there is unity of faith and moral standards.
To fall from a set standard is human but to adamantly continue in sin is vice against the Holy Spirit which Jesus Christ tells will not be condoned. I don’t think there can be any exception.

Jose Thomas

 

[opus101]

I haven’t seen anyone say we should have.

I wasn’t implying that anyone on this thread said we should have.

I was addressing an attitude that is “either/or” instead of “both/and”.

 

[dannyboy2277]

The pope is doing a great job at showing compassion.
I just wish he would start working on the conversion.

When Jesus was confronted by the Pharisees as to what to do with the woman who committed adultery, he showed her compassion but he also told her to convert "Go and sin no more." -John 8:11

This world is being babied right now and the immorality that you see everywhere is a result of that passiveness. This world needs a good spanking. People are more concerned about people’s feelings instead of their eternal soul.

This world needs a good spanking. PROVERBS 23:13-14 Don’t hesitate to discipline children. A good spanking won’t kill them. As a matter of fact, it may save their lives.

 

[livingwordunity]

True story. My dad was standing in line for confession. Circa 1939. He was in jr high. He saw a classmate come out of tbe confessional in tears. My dad approached her and asked if she was ok. They stepped aside and she told him…“I told Fr. my mom served meat yesterday (Friday) and he scolded me and said my mother should have her hands cut off.” My dad walked his classmate home… and no he didn’t go to confession.

Yeah scolding really makes an impact. A negatve one. It wouldn’t have done any good to tell my grandparents what happened because they would say tbe Priest is always right. We know better now. Fr puts his pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else

No offense, but I find that story very hard to believe. I’ve been a Catholic for 20 years. In that time, I’ve gone gone to confession frequently with sins that are much greater than eating meat on Friday. And I’ve gone to confession in in 9 different U.S. states and in various parishes within each of these states, overseas, and on U.S. navy ships, and the most I’ve been told is to pray some “Our Fathers” and “Hail Marys” for my penance. So, even if something like you describe did happen it would be so rare that it’s only relevant to a one time experience by one person and not relevant to anyone else or to any discussion on Catholicism. It would be like using Jeffrey Dahmer as an example of an American.

 

[PPeterson]

This whole interview will be taken by the majority of readers as, “Yeehaw, let’s have an abortofest!”

sorry if this response is poorly put together, my husband and I were up all night at an impromptu abortofest at the local cathedral following the publication of this interview. …

A)
Seriously though, I like the Pope’s remarks. I don’t think he was particularly talking about what the content of homilies should be about, but about our “public tone” in general. In an entire lifetime of mass attendance I have heard exactly zero sermons explaining why abortion is wrong, and a total of 1 sermon explaining the theology and rationale behind Catholic teachings on sexuality (given by a seminarian) and exhorting the faithful to morally upright sexual behavior.

B
On the other hand, I have heard approximately 9897986879658959 “announcements” at the end of mass by pro-life speakers asking everyone to sign a petition after mass or vote a certain way; heard a handful of sermons stating that people who disagree with the church on contraception are in dissent (with no explanation provided), have heard “cafeteria catholics” condemned in several sermons (including one by a Bishop), and heard any number of rambling sermons about the sorry state of the world.

My impression was that Pope Francis would have absolutely no problem with more of those items mentioned in A, and is letting us know “hey guys I think you’re good” as far as those in B are concerned.

 

[FollowChrist34]

You are right, but I think we can and need to do both. You cannot stand by while millions are killed while waiting for people to turn to Christ. You can do everything in your power to stop the bleeding, while showing them how much love God is offering them.

If all we wanted to do was to turn people to Christ through love, we wouldn’t need any laws to begin with. But since that is an ongoing process that can takes thousands of years, we have the gifts God has given us to use in the mean time to care for people as well.

Bravo. I am against abortion but have never been active in the prolife movement. I don’t think it is an unfair assessment to compare legalized abortion to the holocaust. I commend the courage and integrity of my fellow active prolife Catholics - God bless you. I feel like you’re taking a bit of hit right now for whatever reason after this Pope interview, rightly or wrongly interpreted. Remember, Jesus is with you, not to mention the souls of the unborn. You are speaking for them. Don’t stop what you’re doing.

On another point - I have a really good Evangelical Christian friend who is an active missionary. She travels around the world, India, Europe, Israel, etc. I once asked her why she didn’t just evangelize in the US, God knows there are enough people who need to hear the Gospel. She answered, looking tired of hearing the question: “They’ve already heard the message of Christ.” The implication being they’ve heard and understand the saving message of Jesus Christ and they’ve rejected it. That seemed harsh to me and I thought to myself, well, as a Catholic, I feel differently. I am more open; it is not my place to condemn anyone. This was probably 7 years ago. Not sure I believe that anymore.

Do you seriously believe that going out into the secular world today and telling these people that God loves them is going to make any more of a genuine impact than that they are sinners and need to repent before a loving God? Or even saying both? Good luck. I personally tried it about two weeks ago. I told someone at work what I sincerely believe: that God was love and at its purest and simplest Christianity was essentially man’s inner transformation into this love or “spirit” where Christ takes up his abode. Got laughed at. This is not the only time that’s happened.

Anybody remember all those unfeeling and insensitive prophets in the Old Testament butting heads with all those stiff necked hard hearted Baal worshippers? I guess they just needed to mellow out and be more positive! A little Baal is ok - the main thing is for us all to feel better about ourselves. This is how we grow in the faith!

Sorry for the tone.

 

[Julianna]

Wow. How terrible.

And just think, some miss the good ol’ days of a good scolding to keep you line. Fear is a great motivator.

I don’t think Francis is going that way.

 

[Julianna]

No offense, but I find that story very hard to believe. I’ve been a Catholic for 20 years. In that time, I’ve gone gone to confession frequently with sins that are much greater than eating meat on Friday. And I’ve gone to confession in in 9 different U.S. states and in various parishes within each of these states, overseas, and on U.S. navy ships, and the most I’ve been told is to pray some “Our Fathers” and “Hail Marys” for my penance. So, even if something like you describe did happen it would be so rare that it’s only relevant to a one time experience by one person and not relevant to anyone else or to any discussion on Catholicism. It would be like using Jeffrey Dahmer as an example of an American.

Were you the son of Italian immigrants in “1939”? Yes, it is a true story. My dad, now deceased told it to my siblings and I. He also told us to let him know if we are ever “scolded” by a Priest during confession. It never happened. My first confession was in 1966 at the age of 8. I loved Fr. O’conner. He was…yes, he was much like our Pope. I have never had a bad experience with a Priest. The Priest that married my husband and I was wonderful (1981). We “told” him we were living together and my husband “expected” a scolding…it never came. Fr. said, “You are here now and I see you both at Mass.” and no, we did not receive communion. Our son was Baptized by the same Priest. We were blessed to have him and hated to see him transfer out.

A “one” time experience…how about all the other kids standing in line on a Saturday afternoon for confession? It made one think how many other kids came out of the confessional in tears? And their parents never knew. Oh, they all knew in school the next day for sure. (My dad went to public school, you had to have money to go to Catholic School). It was an Italian Parish filled with immigrants, most poor and uneducated. If Fr. said it, it was gospel. My father got a clue real quick.

 

[ljwahn]

1. It’s the NY Times. Not a reliable source for interpretation of what the Church or the Holy Father says.

Having said that, IMO sadly we don’t hear nearly often enough strong teaching on moral issues in the pews. Obsessed? Not even close.

Amen to that.

 

[ljwahn]

While I’m in no way a supporter of Gay Marriage or Abortion, I do believe Pope Francis has a point. We are the Catholic church, here for the salvation of all mankind. We can’t ostracize people, they are human beings as well. Preaching against gay marriage and abortion until we’re blue in the face won’t lead others to the Catholic church, living a Catholic lifestyle and being an example for others however will, and with that brings an end to things like abortion and gay marriage.

So instead we’ll have a church full of people who don’t believe what the church teaches. I’m sorry but I’ve not seen a lot of pro-aborts and homosexuals hurting. What I have seen is they have an agenda and they are very good at promoting it.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

The fact is that the issues he brought up really are the main reasons I am not an active Catholic anymore. . . From my point of view, the Church has been overly focused on pointing out and chastising sinners in the world . . . Pope Francis’ comments have made me consider attending Mass this Sunday for the first time in several years. It felt like he was honestly inviting someone like me back.

There is never a good reason to be a lapsed Catholic. God becoming Man and giving Himself as food in the Holy Eucharist is the reason why we should want to go to Mass not only on Sundays but every chance we can get. Just imagine–GOD giving Himself as food–and Catholics not realizing it. People come up with a million different petty reasons for not going to Mass, but it’s the ignorance of what the Mass is that is the real problem. I would suggest you come back to Mass, but do it along with studying the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You’ll be glad you did.

As for the Church being overly focused on pointing out and chastising sinners in the world is not true–though you may get this impression from some individuals in the Church, and there will always be pharisees in both the clergy and laity. But Church teaching is clear, and it is one of mercy and salvation. Salvation from damnation requires a transformation from mediocrity and vice to zeal and virtue. It is sin itself that chastises us in a multitude of ways. Sin has a built-in consequence, much like if you consume poison, you and your body suffers.

Everyone who goes to church is a sinner—and the point pope Francis is making is that the Church is a hospital for all of us wretched sinners who are called to be converted and transformed so that we may reflect Christ’s goodness, truth, service and forgiveness in a very dark world.

Here is an interesting brief talk by Archbishop Fulton J Sheen who many years ago echoed what Pope Francis is talking about, despite the sensational headlines:

LISTEN NOW

 

[SaintAugustine]

If Pope Francis had said this, what would you think?

Well done! Carl Olson did this with another misinterpretation of Pope Francis. It’s incredible how politically liberal Catholics think that there is a vast difference between the two popes. The only difference is in how their politically liberal journalists report what they say.

 

[anthonymarie]

Hi, like others here, I’m new today and here out of concern (or perhaps confusion). I thought talking with other Catholics could help. I am convinced of the pope’s holiness but I am faced with the following problem.

I work in a Catholic institution in the developing world and was appalled by what I can only refer to as gloating from openly liberal colleagues on Friday regarding the pope’s interview. I know the pope is theologically sound and so do they but something doesn’t add up. Given the recent track record of the press and the Holy Father’s experience and intelligence he must of known that his words regarding abortion would be taken out of context. Moreoever, what exactly is that context? Who are the obsessives? Am I, as a pro-life campaigner, an obsessive? If it was all that Catholics ever talked about I could see this but in my experience, talking to parishoners, it’s the exact opposite. I haven’t heard the word “abortion” in a sermon for (I think) over two years and I move around a lot. If it’s directed at pro-life organisations, which ones? And if any given Catholic feels called to this ministry who is the Holy Father to judge? I don’t mean that disrespectfully, in all seriousness, if through a reading of the church’s teachings and scripture a Catholic feels called to action who is to say the holy spirit is not moving them? But I’m sure the pope would agree with that.

This leads my colleagues to claim (disturbingly gleefully) that it must be directed at outspoken bishops and cardinals like Cardinal Timothy Dolan. But if so, what in particular should bishops, like Cardinal Dolan, have not done or have left unsaid? Specifics would be good. The pope’s comments on abortion have been published on the front page of practically every newspaper in world and the pope must have known that they would be discussed. What do they mean?

 

[CatholicHockey7]

So instead we’ll have a church full of people who don’t believe what the church teaches. I’m sorry but I’ve not seen a lot of pro-aborts and homosexuals hurting. What I have seen is they have an agenda and they are very good at promoting it.

Just because it doesn’t look like they’re hurting doesn’t mean they’re not. Francis is echoing a church teaching that goes back to this really great teacher named Jesus. You may have heard it expressed recently as, “love the sinner, hate the sin.”

He wants to invite everyone to join us at mass. Catholic means “universal.” How are we a universal church if we keep our doors closed and never invite the world in to learn what we truly believe?

If people don’t agree with the Church, they probably won’t stay very long. Just because they continue to live in sin does not automatically mean they disagree with the Church. I struggle daily to live up to Christ’s standards. That doesn’t make me any less Catholic when I fail. It just makes me human and in need of Christ’s divine intervention for the salvation of my soul.

These people who are involved in abortions and homosexual acts are just more in need than most. It’s our job to show them love, and in doing so open their eyes to the truth that all human life is precious and that God loves us IN SPITE OF our sins (which He detests).

 

[PTL]

I know the pope is theologically sound and so do they but something doesn’t add up. Given the recent track record of the press and the Holy Father’s experience and intelligence he must of known that his words regarding abortion would be taken out of context. Moreoever, what exactly is that context? Who are the obsessives? Am I, as a pro-life campaigner, an obsessive? If it was all that Catholics ever talked about I could see this but in my experience, talking to parishoners, it’s the exact opposite. I haven’t heard the word “abortion” in a sermon for (I think) over two years and I move around a lot.

I totally agree with what you said. As far as I can recall, I have hardly ever heard the issue of abortion being mentioned in homily. The Holy Father must know that. So what is his purpose of saying what he said in the interview?

 

[livingwordunity]

Were you the son of Italian immigrants in “1939”? Yes, it is a true story. My dad, now deceased told it to my siblings and I.

Your claim is bizarre and unprovable. Even within the story, your father didn’t hear the priest say that someone should have their hands cut off. He was only going off of what a child said that she thought she heard the priest say. The child could have been mistaken about what she thought she heard. Kids have great imaginations. The story is of second-hand hearsay from a child which we have no way of judging the child’s credibility. And, like I said, even if that did happen to your father it would only be relevant to your father and to one priest at that time in 1939 since the Catholic Church was never known for requiring people’s hands to be cut off. If you had said that a Muslim cleric said this it would be believable since cutting off one’s hands is a common punishment in Islamic Sharia Law. But you saying that your father said it happened with a priest doesn’t prove it to have been a universal norm in the Catholic Church. What you are doing is trying to get us to accept a logical fallacy of a story based entirely on hearsay to somehow get us to believe that a story so bizarre represented a universal norm in the Catholic Church.

 

[livingwordunity]

And just think, some miss the good ol’ days of a good scolding to keep you line. Fear is a great motivator.

Except for a possible troll here or there, none of the reputably orthodox Catholics here have said that people should be “scolded” in the confessional. The people who are orthodox are the ones who admit to being sinners and who go to confession to confess our sins. So why would we be for “scolding” in the confessional when we are the ones who go there? All the orthodox Catholics are saying is that people should go to Confession so that they can be forgiven. How is that being mean?

 

[dannyboy2277]

And just think, some miss the good ol’ days of a good scolding to keep you line. Fear is a great motivator.

I don’t think Francis is going that way.

PROVERBS 23:13
Don’t hesitate to discipline children. A good spanking won’t kill them. As a matter of fact, it may save their lives.

 

[dannyboy2277]

I totally agree with what you said. As far as I can recall, I have hardly ever heard the issue of abortion being mentioned in homily. The Holy Father must know that. So what is his purpose of saying what he said in the interview?

Both abortion and homosexuality haven’t been mentioned even when the Gospel readings could produce a sermon on that topic. I hope these priests realize that they are responsible for their flock, to lead them on the straight and narrow path to eternal life.

**James 3:1 **Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.