Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

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gracepoole said:
This is where I think things get dangerous. Whenever we assume that we know better than the pontiff, perhaps we (including me) should look to ourselves and reconsider our own position a bit more thoroughly. I think Pope Francis knows exactly what he’s doing.
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Very good!

Too many look at what our Pope says and tries to make it applicable to what we believe, when in fact we should be making what we believe applicable to what pastoral guidance he gives us. He is not speaking specifically to me, to you, to one group, or to the other…he is speaking to all of us.
 
ljwahn said:
No, the Church does not change.
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The Church does not change, yet we’ve seen people politicize it and try to justify different applications towards it’s teachings to fit a worldly view. As I said previously, his guidance is for each and everyone of us…no one is excluded.

ETA: The Holy Father does not give guidance to be a ‘big stick’ to beat others with, no matter where they may stand.

Those who think themselves to be on the right side of what the Pope is teaching should look back over things they’ve said, or their posts, and compare them to how the Pope delivers messages on the same subject.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Too many look at what our Pope says and tries to make it applicable to what we believe, when in fact we should be making what we believe applicable to what pastoral guidance he gives us. He is not speaking specifically to me, to you, to one group, or to the other…he is speaking to all of us.
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I don’t think I know better than the Holy Father and I don’t think it’s my place to say where he is right and wrong. This is perhaps the first time in my life that I have seriously questioned something a pope has said and I’m coming round to the opinion that I’m the one in the wrong (mea culpa).

However, I think there’s a misconception among some Catholics (even, if not especially, very good Catholics) that it’s somehow immoral or unorthodox to question a pastoral judgement. No-one has said this explicitly on this feed but I think it has been implied in several posts. I think it would be immoral if it was something small and pedantic but if it is something that makes you question your faith then it is right to question it and to be able to discuss it openly (with other Catholics) without fear of the suggestion that you are unorthodox.

I happened to read the letter to the Galatians this morning. In it St Peter makes what St Paul considers to be an imprudent pastoral judgement and St Paul rebukes him for this. In his notes on this Bishop Challoner says:

“Neither was St. Paul’s reprehending him any argument against his supremacy; for in such cases an inferior may, and sometimes ought, with respect, to admonish his superior.”

I have gained a lot from the insight and helpful advice on this feed. I am grateful to Catholic Answers for providing this opportunity. I think it was through questioning this “pastoral comment” that I have actually come to a deeper understanding of what the Holy Father may be trying to do.
 
gracepoole said:
This thread is turning into an example of the problem. The CCC clearly explains that every human life has dignity. This means that those who die via abortion are denied their God-given dignity. But it also means that **those who die outside of their mothers’ wombs are denied, as well – the Church and God do not rank their lives as less meaningful or significant than those who die via abortion. **

As far as I know, no one in this thread has championed abortion or “abortofests.” :rolleyes: Nor did the Holy Father. I’m not sure why there’s an insistence on sharing one’s outrage over abortion, then, when everyone here believes it to be a grave sin (again, including the Holy Father).

(The thread is now past 1000 posts so I’ll simply add that it’s been an interesting discussion for the past couple of days!)
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As far as I know, no one in this thread has claimed otherwise. Straw man?
 
gracepoole said:
Seriously? Okay – you see things as you want to. 🤷
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The poster said the sin of abortion, which is murder, is the worst. Now, that ranking may be questionable, but it doesn’t assign greater worth to the victim of abortion. It is talking about the sin. I’m not sure why you read it differently. 🤷
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
The Church does not change, yet we’ve seen people politicize it and try to justify different applications towards it’s teachings to fit a worldly view. As I said previously, his guidance is for each and everyone of us…no one is excluded.

ETA: The Holy Father does not give guidance to be a ‘big stick’ to beat others with, no matter where they may stand.

Those who think themselves to be on the right side of what the Pope is teaching should look back over things they’ve said, or their posts, and compare them to how the Pope delivers messages on the same subject.
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Your criticisms are valid and I hope they will engender a bit of introspection on the part of many people who enthusiastically seek to embrace the Church, but who may lack **discernment **when it comes to the messages they are receiving from different quarters.

Pope Francis uses the word discernment 18 times in his interview - Clearly, he is trying to make a point. In his criticism of the clergy (i.e., “The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently.”) he is also informing the laity to be on guard against bad-messaging. Then, with beautiful clarity, he tells us how to spot “genuine” Catholic teaching:

“…a genuine sermon must begin with the first proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. Then you have to do catechesis. Then you can draw even a moral consequence. But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing.”

The genuine method Pope Francis describes is a long and patient process. In fact, the “catechesis” part never really ends. That means, there is no such thing as either a “hard-core Catholic” or a “cafeteria Catholic” - there are only Catholics:

“We must walk united with our differences: there is no other way to become one. This is the way of Jesus.” - Amen! 👍
 
bellasbane said:
Your criticisms are valid and I hope they will engender a bit of introspection on the part of many people who enthusiastically seek to embrace the Church, but who may lack **discernment **when it comes to the messages they are receiving from different quarters.

Pope Francis uses the word discernment 18 times in his interview - Clearly, he is trying to make a point. In his criticism of the clergy (i.e., “The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently.”) he is also informing the laity to be on guard against bad-messaging. Then, with beautiful clarity, he tells us how to spot “genuine” Catholic teaching:

“…a genuine sermon must begin with the first proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. Then you have to do catechesis. Then you can draw even a moral consequence. But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing.”

The genuine method Pope Francis describes is a long and patient process. In fact, the “catechesis” part never really ends. That means, there is no such thing as either a “hard-core Catholic” or a “cafeteria Catholic” - there are only Catholics:

“We must walk united with our differences: there is no other way to become one. This is the way of Jesus.” - Amen! 👍
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Excellent! 👍
 
SaintAugustine said:
The poster said the sin of abortion, which is murder, is the worst. Now, that ranking is questionable, but it doesn’t assign greater worth to the victim of abortion. It is talking about the sin. I’m not sure why you read it differently. 🤷
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Yet the poster isn’t speaking of all murder – he or she is speaking only of abortion. If the value of those lost via abortion isn’t what marks it as the worst sin, what does?
 
gracepoole said:
Yet the poster isn’t speaking of all murder – he or she is speaking only of abortion. If the value of those lost via abortion isn’t what marks it as the worst sin, what does?
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Wow…you are really stretching it. 😛

I’ll leave you to your invalid assumptions.
 
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