Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[Corki]

No, he’s not saying that, but he is right to say that the **pro-life political movement **is not as important as Gospel preaching.

What welcomes people to the Church, the former or the latter?

What changes people’s behavior, the former or the latter?

Ok, but he is NOT saying that the work of pro-life Catholics or the constant focus on the value and dignity of life is something that can be set against the Gospels but that has to be framed within the Gospel teachings. Focus on the Gospels can only reinforce the pro-life movement, not diminish it.

 

[SaintAugustine]

Explain why voting has any relationship with living/preaching the Gospel.

Voting and political activities are part of our lives, and the Gospel should permeate every part of our lives. Compartmentalizing your faith is not what Jesus or His Church teaches us to do.

Yes, but the CC can’t rest on its laurels and say they’re doing good enough since the Eucharist is there. Evangelicals don’t believe in Real Presence, but Evangelicals would say that God is definitely present in their churches through other means.

Sure, and the Catholic Church would agree. We are inviting our non-Catholic brothers and sisters to the fullness of God, which includes the Eucharist - Christ’s greatest gift to us all.

 

[CaliLobo]

Voting and political activities are part of our lives, and the Gospel should permeate every part of our lives. Compartmentalizing your faith is not what Jesus or His Church teaches us to do.

Ahh, isn’t this the point of Francis? That all of this political activity has turned people off from the Church? If so, how is this practicing the Gospel? How is this loving? How is this a fruit of the Spirit?

 

[SaintAugustine]

Ahh, isn’t this the point of Francis? That all of this political activity has turned people off from the Church? If so, how is this practicing the Gospel? How is this loving? How is this a fruit of the Spirit?

I didn’t hear him mention anything about politics and voting…can you point out where he did?

 

[CaliLobo]

I didn’t hear him mention anything about politics and voting…can you point out where he did?

Let’s not mince the issue, it is clear he is referring to the political aspect of it as well. If other posters claim that their parishes don’t preach about abortion, gay marriage, and contraception in Mass, then where is the “obsession”? It must be in the political advocacy…

"Six months into his papacy, Pope Francis sent shock waves through the Roman Catholic church on Thursday with the publication of his remarks that the church had grown “obsessed” with abortion, gay marriage and contraception, and that he had chosen not to talk about those issues despite recriminations from critics.

"His surprising comments came in a lengthy interview in which he criticized the church for putting dogma before love, and for prioritizing moral doctrines over serving the poor and marginalized. He articulated his vision of an inclusive church, a “home for all” — which is a striking contrast with his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, the doctrinal defender who envisioned a smaller, purer church.

"Francis told the interviewer, a fellow Jesuit: “It is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently.

““We have to find a new balance,” the pope continued, “otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel.””

 

[CaliLobo]

Either way, even if that’s not what Francis meant, the secular media has made it about politics. So it is, therefore, about politics.

 

[SaintAugustine]

Let’s not mince the issue, it is clear he is referring to the political aspect of it as well. If other posters claim that their parishes don’t preach about abortion, gay marriage, and contraception in Mass, then where is the “obsession”? It must be in the political advocacy…

"Six months into his papacy, Pope Francis sent shock waves through the Roman Catholic church on Thursday with the publication of his remarks that the church had grown “obsessed” with abortion, gay marriage and contraception, and that he had chosen not to talk about those issues despite recriminations from critics.

"His surprising comments came in a lengthy interview in which he criticized the church for putting dogma before love, and for prioritizing moral doctrines over serving the poor and marginalized. He articulated his vision of an inclusive church, a “home for all” — which is a striking contrast with his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, the doctrinal defender who envisioned a smaller, purer church.

"Francis told the interviewer, a fellow Jesuit: “It is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently.

““We have to find a new balance,” the pope continued, “otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel.””

It isn’t clear at all that he is saying we shouldn’t vote according to Church teaching. He made that teaching clear the very next day:

The Pope told the medical professionals present that every fragile person one encounters is an invitation to recognize the face of Christ, who in his flesh, “experienced the indifference and loneliness that often condemn the poorest, both in the developing world and in affluent societies.” The face of Christ he said can be seen in the unborn children condemned to abortion as well as the elderly and the sick. “You cannot discard them!,” the Pope exclaimed.

Using your “clear” assumption, I can state that he was talking about voting, as well, right?

 

[CaliLobo]

It isn’t clear at all that he is saying we shouldn’t vote according to Church teaching. He made that teaching clear the very next day:

Using your “clear” assumption, I can state that he was talking about voting, as well, right?

There’s still no Biblical basis for voting pro-life.

If anything, the threat of losing tax-exempt status has silenced and will silence American Catholic parishes.

 

[99th_Monkey]

Let’s not mince the issue, it is clear he is referring to the political aspect of it as well. If other posters claim that their parishes don’t preach about abortion, gay marriage, and contraception in Mass, then where is the “obsession”? It must be in the political advocacy…

"Six months into his papacy, Pope Francis sent shock waves through the Roman Catholic church on Thursday with the publication of his remarks that the church had grown “obsessed” with abortion, gay marriage and contraception, and that he had chosen not to talk about those issues despite recriminations from critics.

"His surprising comments came in a lengthy interview in which he criticized the church for putting dogma before love, and for prioritizing moral doctrines over serving the poor and marginalized. He articulated his vision of an inclusive church, a “home for all” — which is a striking contrast with his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, the doctrinal defender who envisioned a smaller, purer church.

"Francis told the interviewer, a fellow Jesuit: “It is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently.

““We have to find a new balance,” the pope continued, “otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel.””

I don’t understand why so many find it hard to calm down and not be so judgmental.

 

[SaintAugustine]

There’s still no Biblical basis for voting pro-life.

If anything, the threat of losing tax-exempt status has silenced and will silence American Catholic parishes.

That is just plain non-sense. Many Popes, Bishops and the US Conference of Bishops have explained the fact that we should vote according to Church teaching, and there is no danger of losing tax exempt status for teaching and preaching that.

 

[99th_Monkey]

That is just plain non-sense. Many Popes, Bishops and the US Conference of Bishops have explained the fact that we should vote according to Church teaching, and there is no danger of losing tax exempt status for teaching and preaching that.

They way that you stated your argument does, in fact, make the church political and therefore not tax exempt.

 

[SaintAugustine]

They way that you stated your argument does, in fact, make the church political and therefore not tax exempt.

Not at all. They can’t instruct parishioners to vote for a particular candidate or party (although plenty of liberal churches do), but they can instruct parishioners to vote pro-life.

 

[gracepoole]

Not at all. They can’t instruct parishioners to vote for a particular candidate or party (although plenty of liberal churches do), but they can instruct parishioners to vote pro-life.

I’ve actually been in two parishes where parishioners were pushed to vote for specific right-wing candidates (and these priests, as far as I know, were not sanctioned for doing so) – never attended a parish in which folks were pushed to vote left. Frankly, I felt mildly assaulted by various Catholic outlets using their apostolates to persuade listeners and readers to vote conservative during the last U.S. election cycle. CA had quite a bit to do with that, as well…

Where, specifically, does the Vatican encourage priests to instruct parishioners to vote pro-life? I’ve only read Vatican statements that left voting decisions to the individual.

 

[SaintAugustine]

I’ve actually been in two parishes where parishioners were pushed to vote for specific right-wing candidates (and these priests, as far as I know, were not sanctioned for doing so) – never attended a parish in which folks were pushed to vote left. Frankly, I felt mildly assaulted by various Catholic outlets using their apostolates to persuade listeners and readers to vote conservative during the last U.S. election cycle. CA had quite a bit to do with that, as well…

Where, specifically, does the Vatican encourage priests to instruct parishioners to vote pro-life? I’ve only read Vatican statements that left voting decisions to the individual.

Voting decisions are always left to the individual’s conscience, but the USCCB has always stressed the prominence of life issues. Always.

Regarding the parish pushing individual candidates; it should never be done. I have heard priests state that you shouldn’t vote for x candidate, because he is clearly opposed to Church teaching on intrinsic evils. I think that is okay. It doesn’t tell you to vote for y candidate.

Edit add: oh, and “mildly assaulted?” Lol…

 

[99th_Monkey]

I’ve actually been in two parishes where parishioners were pushed to vote for specific right-wing candidates (and these priests, as far as I know, were not sanctioned for doing so) – never attended a parish in which folks were pushed to vote left. Frankly, I felt mildly assaulted by various Catholic outlets using their apostolates to persuade listeners and readers to vote conservative during the last U.S. election cycle. CA had quite a bit to do with that, as well…

Where, specifically, does the Vatican encourage priests to instruct parishioners to vote pro-life? I’ve only read Vatican statements that left voting decisions to the individual.

I have the same interpretation.

 

[SaintAugustine]

I have the same interpretation.

usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship-part-two.cfm

Human Life
64. Our 1998 statement Living the Gospel of Life declares, “Abortion and euthanasia have become preeminent threats to human life and dignity because they directly attack life itself, the most fundamental good and the condition for all others” (no. 5). Abortion, the deliberate killing of a human being before birth, is never morally acceptable and must always be opposed. Cloning and destruction of human embryos for research or even for potential cures are always wrong. The purposeful taking of human life by assisted suicide and euthanasia is not an act of mercy, but an unjustifiable assault on human life. Genocide, torture, and the direct and intentional targeting of noncombatants in war or terrorist attacks are always wrong.

1. Laws that legitimize any of these practices are profoundly unjust and immoral. Our Conference supports laws and policies to protect human life to the maximum degree possible, including constitutional protection for the unborn and legislative efforts to end abortion and euthanasia. We also promote a culture of life by supporting laws and programs that encourage childbirth and adoption over abortion and by addressing poverty, providing health care, and offering other assistance to pregnant women, children, and families.

 

[migueltojose]

I’ve actually been in two parishes where parishioners were pushed to vote for specific right-wing candidates (and these priests, as far as I know, were not sanctioned for doing so) – never attended a parish in which folks were pushed to vote left. Frankly, I felt mildly assaulted by various Catholic outlets using their apostolates to persuade listeners and readers to vote conservative during the last U.S. election cycle. CA had quite a bit to do with that, as well…

Where, specifically, does the Vatican encourage priests to instruct parishioners to vote pro-life? I’ve only read Vatican statements that left voting decisions to the individual.

The USCCB (obviously not the Vatican) put out a PDF file called:
Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship (aka Voting Guide): It’s 45 pages…

usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship.pdf

The point is, I think, tolerance does not equal acceptance… but intolerance is unacceptable…

 

[gracepoole]

Voting decisions are always left to the individual’s conscience, but the USCCB has always stressed the prominence of life issues. Always.

Regarding the parish pushing individual candidates; it should never be done. I have heard priests state that you shouldn’t vote for x candidate, because he is clearly opposed to Church teaching on intrinsic evils. I think that is okay. It doesn’t tell you to vote for y candidate.

Edit add: oh, and “mildly assaulted?” Lol…

Yes, it definitely wasn’t kosher. Crazy and totally unorthodox.

I’ve got to disagree that it’s acceptable for priests to tell parishioners not to vote for a specific candidate. Issues, I think, are fine to address (e.g., abortion, same-sex marriage, etc.). But telling someone not to vote for Obama, for instance, is essentially the same as telling him to vote for Romney.

But of course, the USCCB isn’t the Vatican. And CA is neither.

Getting back to this thread’s subject, I don’t think the Pope meant to fully engage with the issue of politics. I don’t see evidence of a prohibition included in his comments, nor do I see him advocating for an acceptance of one political stance over another.

 

[CaliLobo]

gracepoole:

I’ve actually been in two parishes where parishioners were pushed to vote for specific right-wing candidates (and these priests, as far as I know, were not sanctioned for doing so) – never attended a parish in which folks were pushed to vote left. Frankly, I felt mildly assaulted by various Catholic outlets using their apostolates to persuade listeners and readers to vote conservative during the last U.S. election cycle. CA had quite a bit to do with that, as well…

Where, specifically, does the Vatican encourage priests to instruct parishioners to vote pro-life? I’ve only read Vatican statements that left voting decisions to the individual.

I’ve got to disagree that it’s acceptable for priests to tell parishioners not to vote for a specific candidate. Issues, I think, are fine to address (e.g., abortion, same-sex marriage, etc.). But telling someone not to vote for Obama, for instance, is essentially the same as telling him to vote for Romney.

But of course, the USCCB isn’t the Vatican. And CA is neither.

Amen to this. Yes. People are confusing the USCCB with the Vatican.

SaintAugustine:

Human Life
64. Our 1998 statement Living the Gospel of Life declares, “Abortion and euthanasia have become preeminent threats to human life and dignity because they directly attack life itself, the most fundamental good and the condition for all others” (no. 5). Abortion, the deliberate killing of a human being before birth, is never morally acceptable and must always be opposed. Cloning and destruction of human embryos for research or even for potential cures are always wrong. The purposeful taking of human life by assisted suicide and euthanasia is not an act of mercy, but an unjustifiable assault on human life. Genocide, torture, and the direct and intentional targeting of noncombatants in war or terrorist attacks are always wrong.

1. Laws that legitimize any of these practices are profoundly unjust and immoral. Our Conference supports laws and policies to protect human life to the maximum degree possible, including constitutional protection for the unborn and legislative efforts to end abortion and euthanasia. We also promote a culture of life by supporting laws and programs that encourage childbirth and adoption over abortion and by addressing poverty, providing health care, and offering other assistance to pregnant women, children, and families.

This is coming from the USCCB, and definitely not the Vatican, or the Bible.

Let’s not confuse the USCCB with the Vatican. I find it hard to believe that the USCCB is what Jesus envisioned for his church.

In the same way Jesus stayed away from politics, the Church needs to stay away from politics.

 

[SaintAugustine]

Yes, it definitely wasn’t kosher. Crazy and totally unorthodox.

I’ve got to disagree that it’s acceptable for priests to tell parishioners not to vote for a specific candidate. Issues, I think, are fine to address (e.g., abortion, same-sex marriage, etc.). But telling someone not to vote for Obama, for instance, is essentially the same as telling him to vote for Romney.

That is an awfully big assumption! You obviously don’t know my priest.

gracepoole:

But of course, the USCCB isn’t the Vatican. And CA is neither.

. Of course the USCCB isn’t the Vatican. Do you expect the Vatican to give voting guides to everyone, instead of the Bishops of the country? If so, you don’t have a very good understanding of how the Church operates. The Bishops have authority in their diocese, and the USCCB was organized for the US Bishops to share their opinions with the national populace, as a whole. To discount the USCCB or an individual Bishop as “not the Vatican” is done at your own spiritual peril. You may as well say “well that isn’t in the Bible.”

gracepoole:

Getting back to this thread’s subject, I don’t think the Pope meant to fully engage with the issue of politics. I don’t see evidence of a prohibition included in his comments, nor do I see him advocating for an acceptance of one political stance over another.

Exactly! That is why I think all the anti-conservative comments are hogwash. He didn’t say we should stop emphasizing abortion, traditional marriage, et al from a political perspective. It was a total misreading by liberal Catholics seeking approval for their pro-choice, pro-gay “marriage” approach. I’m glad we agree on that.