Pope Calls Laity to Responsibility in the Church

[JimR-OCDS]

Hardly

Then what did you mean by"

The Importance of the laity is that without the laity, there is no Church.

You can have the Pope, and clergy, but without the laity, the Church ceases to function and exists.

We are part of the Church mission in bringing the message of Jesus Christ to others. That mission can not be served by isolating the laity to the pews of the church.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

This isn’t about power, as those on the left and those on the right would have it.

It’s about participation, about being part of the body of Christ, which is the Church.

Jim

 

[ByzCathCantor]

You can have the Pope, and clergy, but without the laity, the Church ceases to function and exists.

Secular clergy are part of the laity.

That mission can not be served by isolating the laity to the pews of the church.

That doesn’t mean that everyone stands in the sanctuary, around the altar, and that’s not what His Holiness is suggesting.

I am beginning to truly see and appreciate the genius of Pope Benedict XVI, as he has managed to confuse the masses as much as Christ did during his own ministry. We pray that he keeps up the good work!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

ByzCathCantor

Secular clergy are part of the laity.

Part, but not the elite portion.

That doesn’t mean that everyone stands in the sanctuary, around the altar, and that’s not what His Holiness is suggesting.

But he’s also not saying that the laity are to be excluded from the ministries involved on the sanctuary.

I am beginning to truly see and appreciate the genius of Pope Benedict XVI, as he has managed to confuse the masses as much as Christ did during his own ministry. We pray that he keeps up the good work!

You believe his mission is to confuse the masses?

I think there is confusion on your part if this is what you believe.

Jim

 

[MarMax]

It presents the importance of the laity and the need for the laity to be more actively involved
in the mission of the Church in both parish life and in the sacraments.

It’s why we have lay people’s responses at Mass, which in the TLM there was none, and the laity singing. Also, the laity are Lectors, and when needed, which is more common than not these days, as Extra Ordinary Eucharistic Ministers.

Before Vatican II, the laity sat in the pews and observed the Priest, altar boys(girls were not allowed) and the Choir as the sole active participants in the Mass.

The Laity could follow along with their missal, and that was considered all the active participation that was needed.

The Church would’ve died if not for Vatican II reforms.

Jim

The Church nearly IS dead because of the Spirit of Vatican II craziness. The lunatics have had 40+ years now and guess what, it’s devolved. It’s insanity. The Pope is trying to correct things brought on by this insipid idea that the laity have to “do” something. Clearly defined roles!! Assisting at Mass is not particularly kinetic insofar as physicality. By this logic displayed, St. Therese of Lisieux didn’t do anything for missions because she wasn’t a missionary. Over 1500 years of success with the model of the TLM wherein the laity didn’t be pretend clerics. Vatican II was supposed to be an attempt at making better known to the world the Church’s stance on issues wherein the modern understanding of prior doctrinal language was being obscured by a changing world’s understanding. It failed. Now we have people thinking they can recognize the Church as the Church but not be Catholic. That doesn’t fly. Now we have people saying people can get to heaven by being good muslims and that muslims worship the same God. NO. They think they worship the same God. They in fact reject God. Protestants, in many ways, reject Christ. It was a travesty in action, though its intent was not so.

The Mass does not increase in Graces because so and so gets up and does things.

I encourage you to actually go to a High Mass and see how much the laity participate as far as responses.

I left the N.O. specifically because of the attitude displayed here. This attitude and understanding is destructive and gets people thinking they’re quasi-priests and other ridiculous ideas.

A portion of notes I took at a Michael Voris talk:

MASS:

What is Mass? Re-presentation of Sacrifice of Our Blessed Lord to the Father.

Happened in time, but is eternally efficacious.

Cup of His Blood: New and Everlasting Covenant. New Covenant: only in Jeremiah 31:31-- never heard of again after all those hundreds of years until the Last Supper. New and everlasting Covenant.

Not just a cup of wine and some little bread; NOT a meal per se but a participation in the Sacrifice which SAVES us for OUR sin. Taken back to Calvary in that moment.

Jewish commemoration: not imitation, but action takes them back to the moment. Do this in memory of me: again, and again, and again: CALVARY. Not a stupid meal. Not a community gathering. There were no drum sets on Golgotha. Sacrifice for SIN. Punishment–infinitely so-- for infinite offense against an infinite God.

Did Our Lady bang a tambourine and read from the Torah at Calvary? Did Saint John say anything? NO. They kept their mouths shut while the High Priest, Christ, offered the ONLY Sacrifice acceptable to God for me, you, US. Enter the Alter Christus… Saint John, later, when conducting Mass, relived this moment, represented it, and THEN he said something: in the person of Christ.

Simple. Case Closed. End of Story. The modern travesty we see is NOT what was intended but is simply a rollercoaster of doom which the Pope is slowly trying to correct.

When laity get “good ideas” horrible things happen. It doesn’t help when the priests come from the laity of good ideas and themselves get wacky ideas.

The only good idea is for the lay Lectors to CEASE. Altar girls to CEASE. Altar Rails to be reinstated. Etc.

Seriously, WATCH one of the Papal Masses in Rome. It’s: in Latin, ad orientem, no girl altar servers… and the Holy Father distributes Holy Communion on the tongue and kneeling. If Priests are devoted to the Successor of St. Peter, they will follow this example. Instead, they have good ideas. Kill me now Lord, kill me now. Wait, never mind, Summorum Pontificum is my life jacket in the sea of modern vomit.

 

[MarMax]

The Importance of the laity is that without the laity, there is no Church.

You can have the Pope, and clergy, but without the laity, the Church ceases to function and exists.

We are part of the Church mission in bringing the message of Jesus Christ to others. That mission can not be served by isolating the laity to the pews of the church.

Jim

Whoa, whoa, whoa!!!

Without the Laity the CHurch ceases to function and exist? We now determine the life of an Eternal God? We can kill God? We can destroy the Mystical Body of Christ!? Buzzer If just ONE faithful Catholic is alive, the gates of Hell have not prevailed. Do you not believe the words of Our Lord? Are we about to jump into the mistake of the Jews? Do we not recall the lesson of Elijah, lamenting he was the only one left and God informed him that He had preserved 7000? “But for the Elect sake, those days shall be shortened…” Don’t get stuck on the building. The Church goes far beyond whether or not someone has a place to be the next American Idol.

You’re right though, we can’t be isolated to the pews and serve this mission of evangelizing the world. We have to leave the pews at some point, exit out the front door, and go do it. It has nothing to do with what happens IN Mass.

Bring the Gospel to the world and you’ll bring the world to the Gospel. Start trying to bring the world into the Mass, and watch it flounder and flop around like a dying fish, turning into a community rock-band “church” jamboree of humanistic death of the soul. Just like it has. Utopian junk is NOT our point. We are here to become Saints, and in doing so, create the damned. If we are not seeking to become Saints, we are tacitly seeking damnation. We do not become saints because we merely read something. We do not become saints because we have another meeting, spaghetti dinner, and a great cantor voice.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well all I can say about the previous post is,

the Church is not dead, and would not be here today as it is, if not for Vatican II and the laity which Vatican II gave the Church back to.

Jim

 

[PJH_74]

The Church nearly IS dead because of the Spirit of Vatican II craziness. The lunatics have had 40+ years now and guess what, it’s devolved.

…]

Simple. Case Closed. End of Story. The modern travesty we see is NOT what was intended but is simply a rollercoaster of doom which the Pope is slowly trying to correct.

When laity get “good ideas” horrible things happen. It doesn’t help when the priests come from the laity of good ideas and themselves get wacky ideas.

The only good idea is for the lay Lectors to CEASE. Altar girls to CEASE. Altar Rails to be reinstated. Etc.

Seriously, WATCH one of the Papal Masses in Rome. It’s: in Latin, ad orientem, no girl altar servers… and the Holy Father distributes Holy Communion on the tongue and kneeling. If Priests are devoted to the Successor of St. Peter, they will follow this example. Instead, they have good ideas.

If you can find enough Priests to say Mass as they once did, be my guest. Half the Catholic congregations in the world lack their own Priest. Mass will CEASE for a vast majority of the Catholics without lay participation. The situation you cherish unfortunately started to end about 100 years ago. So how do we move forward?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Whoa, whoa, whoa!!!

Without the Laity the CHurch ceases to function and exist? We now determine the life of an Eternal God? We can kill God? We can destroy the Mystical Body of Christ!? Buzzer

.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church;

751 The word “Church” (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to “call out of”) means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose. Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people. By calling itself “Church,” the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is “calling together” his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means “what belongs to the Lord.”

Jesus did not come into this world to establish and institution of clergy, but the people drawn to Him by the Father.

We are his Church, no less than the Pope, Bishops and priests.

We are obedient to the Pope, because he is the Vicar of Christ on earth. We listen to our Bishop’s because they are our teachers and we respect our priests because they are Christ in our midst.

But without the laity, their function isn’t required.

Any Bishop will tell you, that the greatest seminaries on earth are the mothers and fathers who teach their children. They are the first to bring faith to their children as they have them Baptized and raise them in the faith.

Jim

 

[MarMax]

If you can find enough Priests to say Mass as they once did, be my guest. Half the Catholic congregations in the world lack their own Priest. Mass will CEASE for a vast majority of the Catholics without lay participation. The situation you cherish unfortunately started to end about 100 years ago. So how do we move forward?

Without an Ordained Priest, there is no Mass. Do you think Laity will be able to consecrate the Bread and Wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord?

You could have 100 people reading the entire Canon at once, and if not a single Ordained Priest is around, no Mass.

What do you think the Mass is? It requires a priest! No priest = no Mass. This is inarguable. Laity have nothing to do with the Mass. A Mass said without a single lay person there is still Mass. Mass said without a priest is… not Mass.

How do we move forward? We cut the dead weight and let the community gatherers go gather in a community while we Catholics have Mass.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

How fitting that the Catechism quotes St Augustine on this very subject.

1372 St. Augustine admirably summed up this doctrine that moves us to an ever more complete participation in our Redeemer’s sacrifice which we celebrate in the Eucharist:

This wholly redeemed city, the assembly and society of the saints, is offered to God as a universal sacrifice by the high priest who in the form of a slave went so far as to offer himself for us in his Passion, to make us the Body of so great a head. . . . Such is the sacrifice of Christians: "we who are many are one Body in Christ" The Church continues to reproduce this sacrifice in the sacrament of the altar so well-known to believers wherein it is evident to them that in what she offers she herself is offered.196

Jim

 

[MarMax]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church;

Jesus did not come into this world to establish and institution of clergy, but the people drawn to Him by the Father.

We are his Church, no less than the Pope, Bishops and priests.

We are obedient to the Pope, because he is the Vicar of Christ on earth. We listen to our Bishop’s because they are our teachers and we respect our priests because they are Christ in our midst.

But without the laity, their function isn’t required.

Any Bishop will tell you, that the greatest seminaries on earth are the mothers and fathers who teach their children. They are the first to bring faith to their children as they have them Baptized and raise them in the faith.

Jim

The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. The Visible aspect (ekklesia) of the Church is merely to point people to Christ. Baltimore Catechism Q513. You and I are not the Church. The Mystical Body of Christ is the Church. If the visible Church ceases to a level that there are no longer any Catholics on earth, i.e. the Elect get totally killed out, goes underground, etc., either Jesus comes back guns blazing, horses snorting, spurs digging in, the Sword of Truth flashing in His Glory… or we got totally had and this is all a scam.

My trust is 0% in the pews, 100% in the Tabernacle, and frankly, I can’t wait for persecution to start here so the tambourine bangers take their proverbial mark and we can get on with the show of living and dying for Christ.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

You believe his mission is to confuse the masses?

Sure - that is precisely what I said

 

[wisedom]

Benedict has been firming up and clarifying the roles of religious, priests, deacons and now the laity.

The laity have a powerful and important role in the world and in the Church.

I’d love to have a cup of coffee with Pope Benedict and ask him exactly what he means by “co-responsibility” and to expand on this sentence:

“Feel the commitment to work for the Church’s mission to be your own,” he exhorted, “through prayer, through study, through active participation in ecclesial life, through an attentive and positive gaze at the world, in the continual search for the signs of the times.”

in some of my messages i have been emphasizing that we the laity are also the Apostles of Christ and have the mission of proclaiming Christ to all ends of the earth; also we have the responsibility of purifying the Church of any impurities caused by whomsoever; the biblical scholars of this web-site have been attacking me and also could not understand me; so we find that other catholic churches in the world other than America, are fully aware of and understand the Word of God, upon which the Holy Father, is reminding the laity of their powerful and important role in the Church
i would suggest that you would go beyong the limited mandate of scrupulousness/scrupulosity (of following the rules to the letter) , and contribute powerfully towards purification of the Church and Evangelisation to all corners of the earth.
Co-responsibility may mean that we are Apostles of Christ and can’t shirk our duty or obligation to proclaim Jesus Christ as the Redeemer to all peoples, along with the clergy.

Pl. note that the altar railings seperating the clergy and laity have long been removed/dismantled, signifying that the DIVIDE is no longer there and all are equal members in the Body of Christ - this is what a particular priest says in his homilies!

ty

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well all I can do is use the words from Pope Benedict XVI in the OP article;

Benedict XVI says the laity should be seen as truly “co-responsible” for the Church, and not just “collaborators” with the clergy.

“Co-responsibility requires a change in mentality, particularly with regard to the role of the laity in the Church,” the Holy Father said.

Laity should be considered “persons truly ‘co-responsible’ for the being and activity of the Church,” he stated.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

St Teresa of Avila expressed it best in her prayer;

“Christ has no body now, but yours.
No hands, no feet on earth, but yours.
Yours are the eyes through which
Christ looks compassion into the world.
Yours are the feet
with which Christ walks to do good.
Yours are the hands
with which Christ blesses the world.”

Jim

 

[PJH_74]

Without an Ordained Priest, there is no Mass. Do you think Laity will be able to consecrate the Bread and Wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord?

You could have 100 people reading the entire Canon at once, and if not a single Ordained Priest is around, no Mass.

What do you think the Mass is? It requires a priest! No priest = no Mass. This is inarguable. Laity have nothing to do with the Mass. A Mass said without a single lay person there is still Mass. Mass said without a priest is… not Mass. .

I well understand a Priest is required for Mass, my point is the laity frees up what Priests there are to do the Mass.

How do we move forward? We cut the dead weight and let the community gatherers go gather in a community while we Catholics have Mass.

That’s charitable.

Now we have people saying people can get to heaven by being good muslims and that muslims worship the same God. NO. They think they worship the same God.

I suppose this will just make you mad…

We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: “We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection” (Insegnamenti, VIII/2, [1985], p. 497).

Yes JP II said this.

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2muslm.htm

 

[MarMax]

How fitting that the Catechism quotes St Augustine on this very subject.

Jim

Yeah, it is fitting, since it makes my point clearly:

1372 St. Augustine admirably summed up this doctrine that moves us to an ever more complete participation in our Redeemer’s sacrifice which we celebrate in the Eucharist:

This wholly redeemed city, the assembly and society of the saints, is offered to God as a universal sacrifice by the high priest who in the form of a slave went so far as to offer himself for us in his Passion, to make us the Body of so great a head. . . . Such is the sacrifice of Christians: “we who are many are one Body in Christ” The Church continues to reproduce this sacrifice in the sacrament of the altar so well-known to believers wherein it is evident to them that in what she offers she herself is offered.196

The offering, by the High Priest, who is Christ, who has an alter Christus, does it. Not the laity. We are joined to Christ, but we are not ordained in the Order of Melchisedech. Ergo, we do nothing but reap the benefits once we are conformed to Christ, by the benefits of the Graces bestowed on us by God, who responds to those before us having conformed themselves to Christ.

Simply put, you just undercut your own argument.

 

[triumphguy]

in some of my messages i have been emphasizing that we the laity are also the Apostles of Christ and have the mission of proclaiming Christ to all ends of the earth; also we have the responsibility of purifying the Church of any impurities caused by whomsoever; the biblical scholars of this web-site have been attacking me and also could not understand me; so we find that other catholic churches in the world other than America, are fully aware of and understand the Word of God, upon which the Holy Father, is reminding the laity of their powerful and important role in the Church
**i would suggest that you would go beyong the limited mandate of scrupulousness/scrupulosity (of following the rules to the letter) , and contribute powerfully towards purification of the Church **and Evangelisation to all corners of the earth.
Co-responsibility may mean that we are Apostles of Christ and can’t shirk our duty or obligation to proclaim Jesus Christ as the Redeemer to all peoples, along with the clergy.

Pl. note that the altar railings seperating the clergy and laity have long been removed/dismantled, signifying that the DIVIDE is no longer there and all are equal members in the Body of Christ - this is what a particular priest says in his homilies!

ty

If what you are saying is that the laity need to clean up the clergy then

err…

No

 

[starryheart]

The Church nearly IS dead because of the Spirit of Vatican II craziness. The lunatics have had 40+ years now and guess what, it’s devolved. It’s insanity. The Pope is trying to correct things brought on by this insipid idea that the laity have to “do” something. Clearly defined roles!! Assisting at Mass is not particularly kinetic insofar as physicality. By this logic displayed, St. Therese of Lisieux didn’t do anything for missions because she wasn’t a missionary. Over 1500 years of success with the model of the TLM wherein the laity didn’t be pretend clerics. Vatican II was supposed to be an attempt at making better known to the world the Church’s stance on issues wherein the modern understanding of prior doctrinal language was being obscured by a changing world’s understanding. It failed. Now we have people thinking they can recognize the Church as the Church but not be Catholic. That doesn’t fly. Now we have people saying people can get to heaven by being good muslims and that muslims worship the same God. NO. They think they worship the same God. They in fact reject God. Protestants, in many ways, reject Christ. It was a travesty in action, though its intent was not so.

The Mass does not increase in Graces because so and so gets up and does things.

I encourage you to actually go to a High Mass and see how much the laity participate as far as responses.

I left the N.O. specifically because of the attitude displayed here. This attitude and understanding is destructive and gets people thinking they’re quasi-priests and other ridiculous ideas.

A portion of notes I took at a Michael Voris talk:

Did Our Lady bang a tambourine and read from the Torah at Calvary? Did Saint John say anything? NO. They kept their mouths shut while the High Priest, Christ, offered the ONLY Sacrifice acceptable to God for me, you, US. Enter the Alter Christus… Saint John, later, when conducting Mass, relived this moment, represented it, and THEN he said something: in the person of Christ.

Simple. Case Closed. End of Story. The modern travesty we see is NOT what was intended but is simply a rollercoaster of doom which the Pope is slowly trying to correct.

When laity get “good ideas” horrible things happen. It doesn’t help when the priests come from the laity of good ideas and themselves get wacky ideas.

The only good idea is for the lay Lectors to CEASE. Altar girls to CEASE. Altar Rails to be reinstated. Etc.

Seriously, WATCH one of the Papal Masses in Rome. It’s: in Latin, ad orientem, no girl altar servers… and the Holy Father distributes Holy Communion on the tongue and kneeling. If Priests are devoted to the Successor of St. Peter, they will follow this example. Instead, they have good ideas. Kill me now Lord, kill me now. Wait, never mind, Summorum Pontificum is my life jacket in the sea of modern vomit.

Absolutely! Couldn’t have said it better myself!!