Pope Calls Laity to Responsibility in the Church

[JRKH]

Not word one about “authority” of the laity…responsibility without authority is just bad from so many perspectives…I rare mis-step from His Holiness IMHO

Funny - but I can’t think of one perspective where this is “just bad”…
Care to elaborate??

Peace
James

 

[Brendan]

The Importance of the laity is that without the laity, there is no Church.

We are his Church, no less than the Pope, Bishops and priests.

One thing to keep in mind, is that the Church is composed of the Church Militant, the Church Penitental and the Church Triumphant.

If every single person on Earth ceased to exist, the Church would remain. It will always exist.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yeah, it is fitting, since it makes my point clearly:

The offering, by the High Priest, who is Christ, who has an alter Christus, does it. Not the laity. We are joined to Christ, but we are not ordained in the Order of Melchisedech. Ergo, we do nothing but reap the benefits once we are conformed to Christ, by the benefits of the Graces bestowed on us by God, who responds to those before us having conformed themselves to Christ.

Simply put, you just undercut your own argument.

You’re confusing what Pope Benedict and myself are saying.

In no way am I saying the Church doesn’t need the Pope, Bishops and Priest, for without them, we have no Sacrifice of the Mass.

However, at the same time, the laity are co-responsible for the mission of the Church, just as the Pope said.

The laity along with the clergy are the Church which is the body of Christ.

Jim

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Pl. note that the altar railings seperating the clergy and laity have long been removed/dismantled, signifying that the DIVIDE is no longer there and all are equal members in the Body of Christ …

Where is the universal decree instructing all to remove the altar rails? Are the Eastern Catholics supposed to start tearing down their icon screens, as well?

snapshot of a section of the altar rail at St. Peter’s Basilica

 

[MarMax]

RE: BPJPII’s misunderstood words on the muslims:

If they worship Allah thinking they worship God, in invincible ignorance they direct, poorly, worship to God. But, they do not worship the same God.

This nuance is deep in theology and on its face renders sycophantic understandings which are outright heresy. BPJPII had more brains and theological understanding in his little finger than you and I have in our pea brains. He also had a horrible habit of saying things he understood that he thought the laity would understand, and didn’t.

Muslims reject Christ. They reject the Trinity. They engage in the heresy of Monarchianism in a convoluted sense. They do not worship God but in that roundabout way that is only possible through invinceable ignorance, and natural law. Baltimore Catechism Q510-511.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

One thing to keep in mind, is that the Church is composed of the Church Militant, the Church Penitental and the Church Triumphant.

If every single person on Earth ceased to exist, the Church would remain. It will always exist.

Because the Church exists in heaven.

But that’s not the point being made here.

There are those who want the laity to step out of the sanctuary and return to their place in the pews, as before Vatican II.

The Pope is saying the opposite and affirming the Vatican II document with respect to the role of the laity.

The laity have a co-responsibility in the mission of the Church. That can’t happen if the laity are isolated to be non-active status.

Jim

 

[JRKH]

What I want to see is how the Church both deals with the increase in the dependency on the Laity and the power shift that it causes. It seems to me that Rome and the local Bishops are trying to assert more top down control of doctrine in the last few years. But empowering the Laity will be a challenge to that. This might be painful, but I think a good thing in the long run.

The asserting of more “top down” control is really just the returning “ripples” of the things that have been sent up the chain.
After Vatican II there was a fair amount of experimentation, new ideas, new approaches etc. - Of course there was much good and much bad that came out of this experimentation. That is to be expected. Now - 40 + years on…The Church as a whole is taking stock of these experiments. She is endeavoring to keep, and encourage that which is good and discourage that which is bad…
Such has always been the way of the Church throughout her history…

There shouldn’t be a power struggle:

In fact we should stop thinking about power when it comes to the Church.

To be a bishop, priest or deacon is to serve.

Empowering the Laity means they are more informed and active in their roles. It should not follow that they constitute a “new” magisterium.

I’m glad there’s more “top down control of doctrine” - we need a bit of focus, there’s been too much dissipation of energy as everyone has been making it up as they go along.

I agree with this Triumph-guy…

It seems that we tend to think entirely too much about “power” and too little about “responsibility” and “service”…

Peace
James

 

[wisedom]

ByzCathCantor

Then you’re rejecting the article from the Pope, which is in the OP.

We’re not speaking of “OUR” own importance but the importance of the laity as the body of Christ which is the Church.

To support the Church means to serve others. But make no mistake about it, we are part of that Church and an important part.

Jim

i affirm your view-point totally and am happy that my earlier views on different threads are ratified here

i may add that the head of the Church, have the sacred duty of emulating Jesus Christ not as a despotic leader that he never was, but as a SERVANT-LEADER that he had been and is!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

RE: BPJPII’s misunderstood words on the muslims:

If they worship Allah thinking they worship God, in invincible ignorance they direct, poorly, worship to God. But, they do not worship the same God.

This nuance is deep in theology and on its face renders sycophantic understandings which are outright heresy. BPJPII had more brains and theological understanding in his little finger than you and I have in our pea brains. He also had a horrible habit of saying things he understood that he thought the laity would understand, and didn’t.

Muslims reject Christ. They reject the Trinity. They engage in the heresy of Monarchianism in a convoluted sense. They do not worship God but in that roundabout way that is only possible through invinceable ignorance, and natural law. Baltimore Catechism Q510-511.

OK, I’m not following you here.

What do the Muslims have to do with the topic of the thread?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

i affirm your view-point totally and am happy that my earlier views on different threads are ratified here

i may add that the head of the Church, have the sacred duty of emulating Jesus Christ not as a despotic leader that he never was, but as a SERVANT-LEADER that he had been and is!

Jim

 

[ByzCathCantor]

There are those who want the laity to step out of the sanctuary and return to their place in the pews, as before Vatican II.

The Pope is saying the opposite and affirming the Vatican II document with respect to the role of the laity.

Where is the Pope saying that, exactly, in this statement?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Where is the Pope saying that, exactly, in this statement?

Well gee, I guess it would help if you read the article in the OP before you start arguing in the thread.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Recalling that Lumen Gentium spoke of the laity-clergy relationship as “familiar,” the Pontiff said it is “important to deepen and to live out this spirit of profound communion in the Church, which characterized the early Christian community, as the book of the Acts of the Apostles attests.”

Jim

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Well gee, I guess it would help if you read the article in the OP before you start arguing in the thread.

Sage advice - please consider it.

Here’s an excerpt:

Benedict XVI encouraged “serious and daily” ongoing formation, saying the laity are “called to be courageous and credible witnesses in every sphere of society, so that the Gospel might be the light that brings hope in difficult situations, in troubles and in the darkness that men today so often find along the path of life.”

What does any of this have to do with what takes place at Mass alone, which seems to be the singular focus of some posts here?

He’s speaking of the New Evangelization here. It is once again clear how much it is needed.

 

[starryheart]

If you can find enough Priests to say Mass as they once did, be my guest. Half the Catholic congregations in the world lack their own Priest. Mass will CEASE for a vast majority of the Catholics without lay participation. The situation you cherish unfortunately started to end about 100 years ago. So how do we move forward?

I’m sorry but I don’t find that to be true. The church I attend does the traditional Latin mass during the week and about 3 different times on Sundays. The church is packed. We’re blessed with atleast 8 priests and more than a dozen brothers. It’s a pretty new order too. They have so many young men trying to join the order. The young people including myself (mid 20’s) thirst for something more. The Latin mass has truly opened my eyes and has given me an intimacy with the Lord. I used to be a lector at a “liberal” church I was even an alter server, but I know that wasn’t my place.

I can participate in the church in another way.

I don’t need to be the centerl of attention. There are some laity that let their “position” get to their head. There’s a church I know a where a woman gives the homily! What?!

The liberal churches I have been to can’t fill up but the Latin mass does. All these “laid back” orders don’t have as many young men trying to get in.

At the end of the day it’s not my house nor the priests, but God’s house. The day we don’t have a priest is the day we should panic because then there’s no consecration. The church can and will survive without the laity on the altar. It was done for so long.

I’m sorry I’m jumping around and I apologize for that.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Sage advice - please consider it.

Here’s an excerpt:

What does any of this have to do with what takes place at Mass alone, which seems to be the singular focus of some posts here?

He’s speaking of the New Evangelization here. It is once again clear how much it is needed.

I didn’t say it had to do with Mass alone, for without Mass which includes active participation by the laity as Vatican II calls for, the mission is in peril.

The Mass is one of the main things that separates us from protestants.

Jim

 

[wisedom]

I well understand a Priest is required for Mass, my point is the laity frees up what Priests there are to do the Mass.

That’s charitable.

I suppose this will just make you mad…

We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: “We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection” (Insegnamenti, VIII/2, [1985], p. 497).

Yes JP II said this.

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2muslm.htm

i am reminded of a testimony given by a young teen- ager, on a Catholic TV channel, who experienced Christ and converted…he said something to this effect: Muslims worship the Father while Christians worship the Son, and this was a revelation to me!

ty for quoting pjp2 and that is really marvellous!

 

[starryheart]

Sage advice - please consider it.

Here’s an excerpt:

What does any of this have to do with what takes place at Mass alone, which seems to be the singular focus of some posts here?

He’s speaking of the New Evangelization here. It is once again clear how much it is needed.

Yes the parish pastor has been talking about evangelization in our church too. That we should be witnesses out in the world.

 

[TrueLight]

Because the Church exists in heaven.

But that’s not the point being made here.

There are those who want the laity to step out of the sanctuary and return to their place in the pews, as before Vatican II.

The Pope is saying the opposite and affirming the Vatican II document with respect to the role of the laity.

The laity have a co-responsibility in the mission of the Church. That can’t happen if the laity are isolated to be non-active status.

Jim

Stepping out of the sanctuary does not mean the laity does not actively participate.

We participate with our prayers in the mass, in song (yes the Laity can and should sing the ordinary and hymns, in my opinion).

More importantly, the laity has a role to be a witness of our faith in our every day lives.

I really think you are misunderstanding the Holy Father’s statements.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Stepping out of the sanctuary does not mean the Laity does not actively participate.

We participate with our prayers in the mass, in song (yes the Laity can and should sing the ordinary and hymns, in my opinion).

More importantly, the laity has a role to be a witness of our faith in our every day lives.

TL - it’s no surprise you understand!