Pope finally launches crackdown on world's largest illicit Catholic shrine [Medjugorje] and suspends 'dubious' priest

[Bakitha]

This is a private apparition that hasn’t been approved by the Church, yet you claim that anyone who agrees with the numerous committees and local Bishop who have claimed that nothing supernatural is occurring, is God’s enemy. I guess Pope Benedict is one of them, seeing he suspended the priest who was the seers’ spiritual advisor. No one is required to believe any apparition, but encouraged to believe the APPROVED apparitions. Your judgement holds no merit, and is in fact illicit.

As far as I know there has only been one Commitee launched by the Bishop who is against Medjugorje and the result does not count as a final decision.

I am really amazed how much weight you give to an article which has been written by a profane newspaper. Whilst the Church has no final decision on Medjugorje.
The suspended priest wasn’t in Medjugorje for years, it’s not even sure if he was one of their spiritual leader. And even if. What meaning has that for the apparitions? Over here in Europe we have heard uncountable critics against American priests because of sexual harassment. Would this mean because of the priest which have failed the Church is not is not to believe anymore?
My judgment is my personal judgement. Not everybody has to wait for a official approvement to believe something he or she experiences. Same in Lourdes and Fatima. There were always believers before official recognition.

 

[Bakitha]

And I’m not saying that those who don’t right believe in the apparitions are God’s enemies, I’m saying that God’s enemy is causing confusion, because - what I believe - there are so many graces and blessings coming through Medjugorje and many, many people are returning to God. So would Satan want to watch this without interfering?

 

[tm30]

As far as I know there has only been one Commitee launched by the Bishop who is against Medjugorje and the result does not count as a final decision.

I am really amazed how much weight you give to an article which has been written by a profane newspaper. Whilst the Church has no final decision on Medjugorje.
The suspended priest wasn’t in Medjugorje for years, it’s not even sure if he was one of their spiritual leader. And even if. What meaning has that for the apparitions? Over here in Europe we have heard uncountable critics against American priests because of sexual harassment. Would this mean because of the priest which have failed the Church is not is not to believe anymore?
My judgment is my personal judgement. Not everybody has to wait for a official approvement to believe something he or she experiences. Same in Lourdes and Fatima. There were always believers before official recognition.

Medjugorje has overwhelmingly gnostic undertones. The whole “we’ve got terrible secrets that you can’t know” theme, is disturbing. At Fatima, there was a secret message, but a bona fide miracle as proof of authenticity, witnessed and experienced by thousands (believers and atheists) and predicted ahead of time in order to validate the seers. Nothing of the sort has occurred in Medjugorje. If this were truly the Blessed Mother, there would have been an authentic, verifiable, supernatural miracle by now.

The rest of the issues have been discussed ad nauseum, but the gnostic quality of the “secrets” is enough proof against it for me.

 

[tm30]

And I’m not saying that those who don’t right believe in the apparitions are God’s enemies, I’m saying that God’s enemy is causing confusion, because - what I believe - there are so many graces and blessings coming through Medjugorje and many, many people are returning to God. So would Satan want to watch this without interfering?

If I had thousands of people in my backyard praying the rosary every day, there would be manifold blessings and graces occurring there, too, but it wouldn’t make it a shrine, or prove that I’m having monthly conversations with Mary.

Assigning power to Medjugorje ultimately implies a limitation on where and when God can bestow grace. There is such a thing as “cult of place”. Look at the irresolvable warring over Jerusalem between the Palestinians and the Jews. The Catholic Church doesn’t assign power to any ‘place’, because the Church is not defined by location. If the Vatican were destroyed tomorrow, the Church would not cease to exist.

 

[Sillara]

Okay, I have read several times that “the Church does not rule on apparitions while they are still occurring.” Then I have read that that is inaccurate. The Church does rule on apparitions.

I know that before apparitions get moved up for higher approval, so to speak, the local bishop rules first. If he says no, then the apparition is not even kicked up for further consideration. This means that if a local bishop disapproves, then that is it. No more chances, correct?

So, is it not the case that the local bishop of Medjugorje ruled that there was nothing supernatural occurring? If he did, then is that not the end of it? “The Vatican” does not rule on this because it did not even make it that far, right?

Or am I not understanding it correctly? This is perfectly possible.

 

[Layman]

Errr… as I understand it:

1. The local Bishop has the last word on any religious phenomena in his diocese. And he has said NO. Anyone waiting for Rome to contradict him will wait a long time.
2. Any graces or miracles coming out of Medj. are the result of the faithful gathering together and praying; the Church in action.

3). My opinion: I read that because Medj. exists, it draws attention away from other, approved appartations, like Fatima and Lourdes. And it’s still ongoing! How handy, if it’s the work of the Devil. A ‘live’ phenomenon. Much more likely to draw sensation-seekers in.

As if the Queen of Heaven would show up 30,000(?) times and give messages. From memory, I don’t think even St. Padre Pio was so blessed.

 

[Sillara]

Errr… as I understand it:

1. The local Bishop has the last word on any religious phenomena in his diocese. And he has said NO. Anyone waiting for Rome to contradict him will wait a long time.
2. Any graces or miracles coming out of Medj. are the result of the faithful gathering together and praying; the Church in action.

3). My opinion: I read that because Medj. exists, it draws attention away from other, approved appartations, like Fatima and Lourdes. And it’s still ongoing! How handy, if it’s the work of the Devil. A ‘live’ phenomenon. Much more likely to draw sensation-seekers in.

As if the Queen of Heaven would show up 30,000(?) times and give messages. From memory, I don’t think even St. Padre Pio was so blessed.

That’s what I thought. Thanks!

 

[BSHoop96]

Okay, I have read several times that “the Church does not rule on apparitions while they are still occurring.” Then I have read that that is inaccurate. The Church does rule on apparitions.

I know that before apparitions get moved up for higher approval, so to speak, the local bishop rules first. If he says no, then the apparition is not even kicked up for further consideration. This means that if a local bishop disapproves, then that is it. No more chances, correct?

So, is it not the case that the local bishop of Medjugorje ruled that there was nothing supernatural occurring? If he did, then is that not the end of it? “The Vatican” does not rule on this because it did not even make it that far, right?

Or am I not understanding it correctly? This is perfectly possible.

You are correct in stating that the apparitions DO NOT have to end before a decision. If someone coming in to this thread late will go back and read the links it would be helpful. Bakitha might try looking at a few of these. That being said I know many wonderful Catholic who sincerely believe in Medjugorje. I have serious doubts. As an example, it troubles me that a seer will go to Caritas in Alabama, have visions in the bedroom and then they run all the tourists through there. Why the push for Medjugorje when we have approved Marian apparitions?

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=7627&CFID=16785012&CFTOKEN=61301940

forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5259083

 

[Bakitha]

If I had thousands of people in my backyard praying the rosary every day, there would be manifold blessings and graces occurring there, too, but it wouldn’t make it a shrine, or prove that I’m having monthly conversations with Mary.

Assigning power to Medjugorje ultimately implies a limitation on where and when God can bestow grace. There is such a thing as “cult of place”. Look at the irresolvable warring over Jerusalem between the Palestinians and the Jews. The Catholic Church doesn’t assign power to any ‘place’, because the Church is not defined by location. If the Vatican were destroyed tomorrow, the Church would not cease to exist.

When I mention Medjugorje I don’t just mean the place alone. I mean the apparitions, the messages and all graces, etc.

 

[Walt_Oliver]

**REMINDER: The promotion of unapproved apparitions is prohibited.
**

 

[Bakitha]

Errr… as I understand it:

1. The local Bishop has the last word on any religious phenomena in his diocese. And he has said NO. Anyone waiting for Rome to contradict him will wait a long time…

Let me quote an answer to this from an other forum:
The Vatican (more specifically Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger) has protected Medjugorje 3 times in the last 25 years. Just this last April 2008, for the first time in the history of the Catholic Church, the Vatican has taken away the authority of, not only the local Bishop of Mostar, but also the Bishops Council of Bosnia i Hercegovina to discern and proclaim the authenticity of the Medjugorje apparitions. This power now rests in the hands of the Vatican–only!

1. Any graces or miracles coming out of Medj. are the result of the faithful gathering together and praying; the Church in action…

That’s true. But would have never occured in these dimensions there and also worldwide if not for the apparitions.

3).

I read that because Medj. exists, it draws attention away from other, approved apparitions, like Fatima and Lourdes. And it’s still ongoing! How handy, if it’s the work of the Devil. A ‘live’ phenomenon. Much more likely to draw sensation-seekers in.

Doesn’t make sense and sounds like jealousy. Can one grace be an offend to an other?

As if the Queen of Heaven would show up 30,000(?) times and give messages. From memory, I don’t think even St. Padre Pio was so blessed.

Who are we to say how many times our Lady should appear?

 

[Bakitha]

**REMINDER: The promotion of unapproved apparitions is prohibited.
**

Sorry, I am not promoting, I’m defending.

But I understand your message.

But please also don’t forget the words of Jesus about sin against the Holy Spirit… Who else than the Holy Spirit is gathering thousands and thousands of people each year from all other the world to pray peacefully together and to worship Jesus in the most blessed Sacrament?!

Thanks for discussing.

 

[tm30]

When I mention Medjugorje I don’t just mean the place alone. I mean the apparitions, the messages and all graces, etc.

Well, the apparitions have been declared not credible by two local bishops. Since we don’t experience said visions directly, we’re left to rely on the word of the visionaries over the discernment granted by God to the local bishop, by virtue of that office. Who should we listen to? The visionaries who provide no actual evidence they’re seeing anything, or the office of the bishop, which is imbued with the grace to discern for the sake of the flock, the disposition of claims such as these?

The messages are all boilerplate chicken soup for the soul theology - just enough to keep people interested, but never really saying much of anything. Supernatural visitations throughout the history of the Church are noted for their depth of theological significance, oftentimes introducing a deeper understanding of what is already revealed in Scripture, e.g., the depth of God’s mercy (the Divine Mercy), Mary’s purity (the Immaculate Conception), the meditative Gospel (the Holy Rosary), etc. etc… Fatima was a direct and dire warning of the evil of atheistic communism which would threaten Europe in the 20th century, and the secrets were not “kept” by the visionaries, but, by permission, revealed to the Pope, who ordered the third secret not to be divulged.

 

[tm30]

Let me quote an answer to this from an other forum:
The Vatican (more specifically Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger) has protected Medjugorje 3 times in the last 25 years. Just this last April 2008, for the first time in the history of the Catholic Church, the Vatican has taken away the authority of, not only the local Bishop of Mostar, but also the Bishops Council of Bosnia i Hercegovina to discern and proclaim the authenticity of the Medjugorje apparitions. This power now rests in the hands of the Vatican–only!

Unverifiable hearsay. Next?

That’s true. But would have never occured in these dimensions there and also worldwide if not for the apparitions.

Or an elaborate hoax.

Doesn’t make sense and sounds like jealousy. Can one grace be an offend to an other?

There’s a fine line between grace and hysteria. Fatima and Lourdes are approved, Medjugorje is not. Why aren’t you going to Fatima and Lourdes? Are the “graces” better at Medjugorje? Or are you going there for the “experience” of being dazzled by cheap tricks?

Who are we to say how many times our Lady should appear?

Who are we to believe she’s appearing at all? The bishops said she’s not appearing. Case closed.

 

[LilyM]

Bakitha:
Let me quote an answer to this from an other forum:
The Vatican (more specifically Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger) has protected Medjugorje 3 times in the last 25 years. Just this last April 2008, for the first time in the history of the Catholic Church, the Vatican has taken away the authority of, not only the local Bishop of Mostar, but also the Bishops Council of Bosnia i Hercegovina to discern and proclaim the authenticity of the Medjugorje apparitions. This power now rests in the hands of the Vatican–only!

To make FURTHER pronouncements - no wonder, since the ones that have been made thus far are being ignored by supporters of Medj!

When did Padre Pio or any real visionary EVER ignore directives from their bishops, even when those bishops were WRONG? Didn’t Padre Pio stop saying Mass when ordered to? Didn’t heaven bless him all the more for his obedience under this unjust persecution? All we hear from supporters of Medj is grumbling, which is totally contrary to the spirit of willing submission and obedience that all the true visionaries have shown in similar circumstances.

And Rome’s decision to move the court, so to speak, is not at all the same thing as saying the initial pronouncement was wrong (where has the Vatican ever said that they disagree with the actual declaration of non-supernatural that the Bishop made? That declaration stands as the last word until such time as it is explicitly overruled, which thus far it hasn’t been).

The Vatican’s action just means that if necessary Rome will speak since people are (it seems) more likely to listen to the Vatican than their local Bishop (please God - I fear some would ignore even the Holy Father himself!)

That’s true. But would have never occured in these dimensions there and also worldwide if not for the apparitions.

You really think so? How many apparitions have occured in the Vatican? How many people nonetheless go and are blessed by their visit there (hint:at least as many as Medj).

 

[Bakitha]

Well, the apparitions have been declared not credible by two local bishops. Since we don’t experience said visions directly, we’re left to rely on the word of the visionaries over the discernment granted by God to the local bishop, by virtue of that office. Who should we listen to? The visionaries who provide no actual evidence they’re seeing anything, or the office of the bishop, which is imbued with the grace to discern for the sake of the flock, the disposition of claims such as these?

The messages are all boilerplate chicken soup for the soul theology - just enough to keep people interested, but never really saying much of anything. Supernatural visitations throughout the history of the Church are noted for their depth of theological significance, oftentimes introducing a deeper understanding of what is already revealed in Scripture, e.g., the depth of God’s mercy (the Divine Mercy), Mary’s purity (the Immaculate Conception), the meditative Gospel (the Holy Rosary), etc. etc… Fatima was a direct and dire warning of the evil of atheistic communism which would threaten Europe in the 20th century, and the secrets were not “kept” by the visionaries, but, by permission, revealed to the Pope, who ordered the third secret not to be divulged.

Sorry, I think you have not understood the depth of these messages.

 

[tm30]

But please also don’t forget the words of Jesus about sin against the Holy Spirit… Who else than the Holy Spirit is gathering thousands and thousands of people each year from all other the world to pray peacefully together and to worship Jesus in the most blessed Sacrament?!

Ah, yes. I was waiting for it. We’re all going to hell if we don’t believe in Medjugorje.

Thanks, but that won’t play here.

 

[tm30]

Sorry, I think you have not understood the depth of these messages.

Go ahead. I’m all ears.

 

[Eucharisted]

Case closed.

Not for Medjugorje supporters! They won’t rest until Rome declares Medjugorje authentic - and if Rome doesn’t, then they’ll wait until the Pope declares Medjugorje authentic - and if the Pope doesn’t, than they’ll say the Vatican is evil and follow the appariton exclusively. It’s a tried-and-tested path to schism.

 

[Bakitha]

Never said you’re going to hell.

Just wanted to remind you: the Holy Spirit was yesterday, is today and will be tomorrow.

Not just yesterday.

Why are you all so bitter?
If you can’t believe in the apparitions, why don’t you at least wait until the Vatican announces the final decision? Scared or what?

And NO, there is no final decision yet. Why otherwise has the Vatican set up a new Commision for Medjugorje?!