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ephesians2
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B I N G O!
Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven
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livingwordunity
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Not if they are a “strong atheist” meaning that they are an atheist because they reject God and wouldn’t want to be with him even knowing that he is real. These “strong atheists” reject even the Christian concept of God because he doesn’t agree with them on things like abortion, contraception, so-called same-sex “marriage”, etc. Because satan would tell them that all these things are good, many of them would likely choose Hell rather than choosing to be with God in Heaven. Hell by definition is the rejection of God. And God won’t force anyone to be with him in Heaven. That’s why he gave us free will. So, when it comes to our eternal destination, God basically grants us what we ask. For an atheist to get into Heaven they would first have to cease to be an atheist and have a dramatic and contrite change of heart.
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franklinstower
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I am a firm believer in Christ and that He is the only Way, Truth, Life, Gate, Light, Author and Perfecter of our faith and He alone is the Savior. You deny Him and His work, you deny the Father. You deny Him and His work, you have not been changed by the Holy Spirit.
I’ve enjoyed our dialog, franklinstower, but you have not answered my questions. If you do not want to or if they make you uncomfortable, just let me know and I’ll cease to ask. These are the questions I asked and I’d like to know your thoughts.
How does the Buddhist have the mind of Christ if he does not believe Christ (Anointed) is Jesus (Savior)? What is the mind of Christ and how does one attain it? (I Corinthians 2)
“For everyone who has been born of God has overcome the world”. I will now ask a favor of you. Read 1 John 5. What is the “world”? Why do we have to overcome it? Why does God tell us not to be of it?
I am sorry you feel that way. I don’t think I deny Christ I just think he is bigger than the religions that have been founded on him. I don’t deny Christ, I just don’t align with your understanding or him. I know you will say that you have based your understanding of him on the scriptures-- but I think reasonable sincere people can come away from the scriptures with different understandings. I think this is unavoidable.
Your position on Sola Scriptura lets me know at least in general your theological background. I don’t want to change your mind, but I think you do want to change mine. This is different than a discussion where two people are really seeking to understand one another. This approach to discussion is not interesting to me. I hope I did not inadvertently give the impression that this is what I wanted to do. If I did I apologize. It is not. I don’t think salvation rests on this level. I do not think that your salvation rests on having a perfectly accurate understanding of sola scriptura or whether or not you think Buddhists can get to heaven etc. I think you can be saved while disagreeing with the Catholic faith.
In reference to your question about how can a Buddhist can have the mind of Christ, the only way I could answer that is if you first admitted to tradition as having an authoritative role in these matters and you do not-- so there is nowhere to go with this. I think the mind of Christ can be and has been experienced mystically (I have and do) - I do not think it is primarily scriptures on a page. I think it is primarily a reality that scriptures on a page describe and explain-- but that you can also experience. I think you can experience it without having read about it. Suffice it to say- I can see great similarities between the effects of the mind of Christ on a Christian mystic and the effects of Buddhist enlightenment and more closely the experience of “Saccitananda” in Hinduism, I think Christ is working anonymously in other traditions. I came to Christ in this way.
I take a very far reaching understanding of the Catholic Church’s teachings on the possibility of being saved outside of Christianity. Even many Catholics on this site would disagree with me but I think some would agree maybe even the pope.
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gracepoole
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This is an extremely unfamiliar depiction of atheism. I think most atheists simply don’t believe in God’s existence. What’s your basis for claiming that if His existence were proven to them, they would still reject Him?
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TMC
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I don’t think these particular issues are a good way to describe atheists because a great many Christians disagree with the Catholic Church on these topics, while a great many atheists agree with the Church on at least two of them. (I don’t know any atheists that oppose contraception, but then I don’t know many Christians that do, either.)
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livingwordunity
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My basis is that there are some atheists who will say that if God is real they would reject him. They base this on a negative opinion of God which they have formed by select passages of the Old Testament. Have you heard of Richard Dawkins and his books? There are others like him. They also say this because they have accepted secular culture’s definition of good and evil which calls hedonism good and anything opposed to it evil. But I didn’t apply what I said to every atheist. That’s why I said “strong atheist” and then defined what I mean by that. Someone who simply lacks a belief in God but who isn’t against those who believe in God is not who I was referring to and is not what is called a “strong atheist”.
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franklinstower
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I apologize for butting in on your conversation.
Christopher Hitchens is another atheist that has made similar claims. He said even if there were a God of the bible he would reject him. In fairness though, I don’t think many would if they could experience the love of God.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Why would you think that? A third of the angels did. And they were with him. Sometimes love of self, pride, jealousy and hate override even God’s love. Free will has it’s price.
If one would not reject God when confronted with him then free will would not really be free would it?
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franklinstower
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Let me rephrase that-- I think there are some atheists who would not reject God if they had a taste of God.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Well not only does that not work for the angels I noted. But we actually have an example of God himself with humans. Several examples. The first two being Adam and Eve. That is right, at one point THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE rejected God even though they knew him and his Love. Then of course you have this guy named Jesus, (or God if you prefer) Who loved all mankind, even his enemies and told us to do the same.
Rejected by a gigantic mass of people romans and His own people. Even his friends who saw Him work Miracle after Miracle. By the same people who cheered him earlier. Crucified. Not just rejected, but tortured and killed.
To me this idea that if people only knew or saw God they would believe and love Him is just feel good theology. It has no backup in the actual history of God and humans at all. And it takes away the concept of free will and turned God into a mean trickster who chooses not to reveal himself to some. (because if he did, they would all choose Him and love him right?)
No, from the beginning He was rejected by a great great many.
Atheists are nothing new. They are not enlightened, intelligent, or scientific. They are the same as people who denied God from the start. There is nothing new under the sun.
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franklinstower
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Wow. It is very important for you to believe that atheists won’t turn to God even if they know of his love. I know nothing of the feel good theology that you speak of. None of the examples you have given set a precedent that no one would turn to God if they knew of or experienced his presence. I could just as easily give examples of Jesus revealing his love for them and then believing! In fact these are the most important examples. Or we could look at examples of the disciples doing the same with the same results.
Have you judged all atheists to be of a certain mindset even before God has? Who are you to judge them? Are you wiser than the pope, Jesus and God? Are you angry at them?
I only know that when people I have know have experienced God’s love they have turned to God because of that-- that is why I did. I turned to God and Christ because I met a man who was so holy that you could feel God’s power radiating from him–literally. Isn’t the role of the believer, of the Christian, to bring people to understand and know of Gods love? Is that not the point of evangelization? My approach of evangelizing lies precisely in helping people to experience Gods love and I have watched this approach convert many. Maybe the whole church should stop being an example of God’s love, stop working miracles in Gods love, stop helping people to experience God’s love in prayer, since all those* bad people* have already made up their minds. Since all of those bad people have already made up their minds then I guess the quality of the Church and its members doesn’t really have any effect.
How wise you must be to know the hearts and minds of all atheists. While we are at it-- do you think that all of the endless scandal, sexual abuse, and profound arrogance of many christians just might be a stumbling block to belief for some people? I say this foolishly-- I think all of this profound sin and arrogance and judgment (mostly the judgment) has caused God to open a whole new wing of the Church called-- Invincible Ignorance. I think the people of God have forgotten that “Where I am there is my servant also.” It is not “where my servant is, there I am.” The Church is where the believers are-- sometimes that correlates to Church, and buildings, and those who claim him.
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ephesians2
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I am sorry you feel that way. I don’t think I deny Christ I just think he is bigger than the religions that have been founded on him. I don’t deny Christ, I just don’t align with your understanding or him. I know you will say that you have based your understanding of him on the scriptures-- but I think reasonable sincere people can come away from the scriptures with different understandings. I think this is unavoidable.
Thanks for the response, franklinstower. You haven’t answered all my questions, but I agree with you, this will become a banging into a wall type of situation because of your view of God’s word and my view of His word and it’s importance. “I have given them Your word and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world…They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.” Jesus Christ prayed those words to the Father regarding His followers before His crucifixion. Why was He so concerned with the Truth and why did He say it was His word?
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. -Romans 12:2
I’ll state this simply: You cannot be a Buddhist and a Christian at the same time. You cannot be your own savior and also rely on Christ to save you at the same time. This is simply illogical. You cannot look to Krishna, Shiva, or [insert one of the many Hindu deities here] and also serve God. He tells us He is a jealous God. He specifically tells us **not **to put any other gods before Him. BUT, if you do not regard His word as truth and as a lamp unto your feet then you will have other beliefs and information to rely on. You are free to pick and choose what you want to believe and what you want to ignore.
A Buddhist cannot “have the mind of Christ” if he has not been given the Holy Spirit. In 1 Corinthians 2, Paul was speaking to believers, not the “world”. Once again, I agree with you in that Christ can work anywhere He wants. The Holy Spirit can transform anyone’s mind to believe in the True God and Christ’s work if the Father has called that person (what the Bible says it means to be Born Again). The Trinity is always working in amazing ways. Thankyou for the dialog, FT, even if we do not agree. But yes, I think we have come to a standstill like you said. Just a side note in reference to your second paragraph, I am trying to understand your point of view. That is why I keep asking you questions. I can’t learn and understand your views if I don’t *know *your views. But now I understand your view of God and His word, so yes, we have come to a standstill.
I dont know where the rest of your post went.
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pnewton
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By adding the word “strong” and giving it the meaning you do, you are defining a person who knowingly and willfully rejects God. This is a different formulation of the unpardonable sin and would apply to atheist, protestants, and Catholics.
It brings up a good point. The Holy Father never said atheist will go to heaven, much less all atheists will go to heaven. He only leaves the possibility of heaven for all all. Unless one is an extreme Calvinist, this was pretty much already an acceptable idea.Obviously such mechanism for salvation on an individual basis is well outside our pay grade, or the Pope’s.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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No, you misunderstand me. And you are replying with emotion, not logic.
I did not say atheists cannot be saved. EVERYONE CAN be saved. Not everyone will. To go around and say “gee, if most people only knew God’s love” is not only feel good theology with no support. But it also is as presumptuous as you are accusing me of being.
Anyone can be saved. You are angry because I only pointed out that free will rarely chooses God even when one has the benefit of believing in God
I have a hard enough time staying in a state of Grace with the help of the Bible, belief and of course Holy Mother Church that offers me the sacraments that are tools to use to help me get to salvation. Even with all that, even with the sacraments, even with Baptism (which now saves us) and the Eucharist, which gives us grace, and of course Confession which forgives sins. Even with that I am subject to my own will, and to God’s justice. I, like Paul, work out my salvation with fear and trembling.
The Church even teaches that if I die in mortal sin I go to hell. Not only that, but She says that even if you are the BEST Catholic in the world you still have to go to confession at least once a year! Get that, even the BEST ones are deemed by the Church as needing forgiveness once a year. And I dont even know the BEST ones, myself included.
So God provides his mechanism for salvation, and yes, he is not bound by his own mechanism, he CAN work outside of it. But that would be the exception, the Church would be the rule.
Mary, mother of God is one of the few people we can point to that led sinless lives. The doctrine of Mary if fully understood plays into this discussion as well. She was born without original sin. Because God COULD work outside of his own mechanism, he made an exception. The way we get rid of original sin is to be baptized.
Not only that! As if we needed more evidence of how hard it would be for (like you said) MOST people to be saved if only they saw the Love of God) But we also have the Church herself proclaiming some people saved. The Church does not need to proclaim people in hell. (antisaints) but to help us get to heaven She gives us examples to follow to achieve heaven. Not one of them is an Atheist. Gee, not one of them is even protestant!
Please give me an example from one of the thousands of saints someone whom the Church says is in heaven that did not believe in the Church?
Actually you need not even do that. Just give me an example of HOW an atheist could die and go to heaven?
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franklinstower
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You asked how can an atheist be saved. Have you read the Catholic doctrine on Invincible Ignorance? Have you even been following this thread? * It is an established fact of the Catholic faith that an atheist can be saved *I think that Christians are the biggest reasons for invincible ignorance by being invincibly smug and arrogant and fearful.
This change of heart (not a change of doctrine) is what the pope seems to be calling for. I suggest you join him by experiencing the change of heart he is talking about. I used to have the same smugness, the same poverty of view, the same greedy and self-centered guarding of the faith that I see so often in christianity. I have grown out of it. Gods love has grown and Love is the light by which we see clearly. I hear all scriptures differently as the Love of Christ grows in me. It can happen for you too. It is better here, more joy, more love, more peace, Love for all people, fearing very little of humanity, faith in others, a faith that heals them, miracles of healing, psychological, emotional and physical, all from an increase in intimacy with Christ that has come as I have more fully shared in his mind and heart. It is better here, there is more power- God’s power.
Whenever we are angry with any group we will find underneath that we are afraid of or threatened by them and that this fear comes from self, it is self centered fear. If we take our fears and the judgments that we form to protect ourselves from them to God and let God heal them, then we no longer need to fear and judge and hate. We make room for Love. I have been doing this deep kind of soul searching for a while and behind every judgment, behind every lack of charity towards others- especially non christians, I have found self centered fear. As the fear is removed by God-- amazingly my reason tends to see things differently to form different conclusions to weigh the evidence better. Reason is not so divorced from fear and pride as so many suppose. Everyone I have ever known who has practiced intense self-- examination has realized that what they called pure reason or logic has always been fueled by fear and all its children.
This change of heart (not a change of doctrine) is what the pope seems to be calling for. I suggest you join him by experiencing the change of heart he is talking about. I used to have the same smugness, the same poverty of view, the same greedy and self-centered guarding of the faith that I see so often in christianity. I have grown out of it. Gods love has grown and Love is the light by which we see clearly. I hear all scriptures differently as the Love of Christ grows in me. It can happen for you too. It is better here, more joy, more love, more peace, Love for all people, fearing very little of humanity, faith in others, a faith that heals them, miracles of healing, psychological, emotional and physical, all from an increase in intimacy with Christ that has come as I have more fully shared in his mind and heart. It is better here, there is more power- God’s power.
Whenever we are angry with any group we will find underneath that we are afraid of or threatened by them and that this fear comes from self, it is self centered fear. If we take our fears and the judgments that we form to protect ourselves from them to God and let God heal them, then we no longer need to fear and judge and hate. We make room for Love. I have been doing this deep kind of soul searching for a while and behind every judgment, behind every lack of charity towards others- especially non christians, I have found self centered fear. As the fear is removed by God-- amazingly my reason tends to see things differently to form different conclusions to weigh the evidence better. Reason is not so divorced from fear and pride as so many suppose. Everyone I have ever known who has practiced intense self-- examination has realized that what they called pure reason or logic has always been fueled by fear and all its children.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Again you are personalizing this too much. You are also reading WAY more into my words than is intended. You are insinuating that I am not aware of the teaching or even believe in it. You are dead wrong.
What I asked you is by what mechanism an atheist is saved. Yes we agree that invincible ignorance can mitigate culpability. But we also must agree that an atheist has an opportunity to choose God. So, at what point in time does that opportunity present itself. You must also see that invincible ignorance is not in itself a saving grace.
Tell, me HOW an atheist is saved. Not IF.
And please, tone down the accusations. It does nothing to further the conversation.
Francis also teaches us this.
Premise: An atheist is saved and is in heaven.
Objective: Show at what point he was saved and show that it was willed freely by him.
See, with other salvation issues you can do this. You can show a murderer can get to heaven by repentance, by baptism, by the sacrament of confession. We have examples of this.
What the Church teaches is that God MAY save anyone He chooses. (and they choose) but it does not say that he DOES. That is like saying God MAY decide to give wolves wings. But he does not.
WIll there be an atheist in heaven. It is possible. Is this the easiest way to salvation. Nope.
Remember when God himself addresses if a rich man can go to heaven? And he says that it is harder for the camel to go through the eye of a needle? And then he explains that with God anything is possible. Do you think Jesus was saying that most rich people go to heaven? Or was he saying that God can speak to hearts and preform miracles? Certainly the apostles did not take this as the way to get to heaven as none of them were rich.
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franklinstower
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especially men, claim to be going* completely* on reason alone. I have never witnessed this to be the case- not even once-- and yet very few people will even admit to it.
I think this is the hidden filter that goes unspoken- and I think that self-pride most especially gets hidden under the guise of religion. I think that any time we identify ourselves as Christian of this or that kind, we externalize our personal pride onto our system of religion. This is a perfect place to hide pride away from the light of God and men. I think Christianity is doing this on profoundly sinful levels at this time. ***I think this forms a culture of sinfulness that is transmitted unconsciously from one to another without even being spoken- it is hidden sin. *** It is the sin of the sadducees and pharisees-- it is our sin.
If you take a close look at yourself in the presence of God and find none of this to be true about you, then nothing I have said applies to you. In either case the presence of it or not is ultimately between you and God-- I know you don’t have to answer to me on this subject.
I am off to work till late this evening. God bless.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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, claim to be going* completely* on reason alone. I have never witnessed this to be the case- not even once-- and yet very few people will even admit to it.
I think this is the hidden filter that goes unspoken- and I think that self-pride most especially gets hidden under the guise of religion. I think that any time we identify ourselves as Christian of this or that kind, we externalize our personal pride onto our system of religion. This is a perfect place to hide pride away from the light of God and men. I think Christianity is doing this on profoundly sinful levels at this time. ***I think this forms a culture of sinfulness that is transmitted unconsciously from one to another without even being spoken- it is hidden sin. *** It is the sin of the sadducees and pharisees-- it is our sin.
If you take a close look at yourself in the presence of God and find none of this to be true about you, then nothing I have said applies to you. In either case the presence of it or not is ultimately between you and God-- I know you don’t have to answer to me on this subject.
I am off to work till late this evening. God bless.
How silly. This is not a personal forum. Do you really think my name is hoosier daddy? Do you really think you understand my theology or me personally? That is why you are failing. In fact your misreading and jumping to conclusions about my beliefs show that not only are you not capable of acting in the manner you wish to come across as it is actually quite dangerous.
This is not the right media for you to do as you are wanting to do.
Thanks for the free session. Can you answer the question? It is quite odd that you seem to view yourself as some sort of spiritual advisor that I need. You must think quite well of yourself spiritually. You know nothing of me personally. Please. Rather than resort to internet counselling, theologically answer the question using correct discourse.
Please, just answer the question posed to you.
By what mechanism is an atheist saved. It is not by baptism, not by belief. How and when could this happen. Feel free to come up with any scenario you wish. The only parameters are Catholic theology and that the person be an atheist.
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Elizabeth502
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HD and FT,
You might need to revisit your posts, just in case you are inadvertently quoting yourselves instead of each other, in replying.
You might need to revisit your posts, just in case you are inadvertently quoting yourselves instead of each other, in replying.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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yes, that makes it hard to read.HD and FT,
You might need to revisit your posts, just in case you are inadvertently quoting yourselves instead of each other, in replying.
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