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Rocky24
Guest
This is clear as crystal! Can’t our Holy Father speak like this?!!!
Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven
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TMC
Guest
I think he speaks perfectly clearly. Perhaps the problem is that some don’t like the content of what he is saying.This is clear as crystal! Can’t our Holy Father speak like this?!!!
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bilop
Guest
If that person were in heaven, he would no longer be an atheist. Everyone in Heaven will be a member of the Church Triumphant.
They may have been an atheist, or a Jew, or a Muslim on earth, but in Heaven they must be Christians.
God Bless
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bilop
Guest
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TMC
Guest
I think he is clear, and not at all sloppy. Perhaps the problem is not that the Pope is not able to clearly communicate what the Church teaches, but rather that some do not want to hear and accept it.
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Origen52
Guest
QUOTE=Rocky24;11258905]
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." - Pope Eugene IV Cantate Domino, 1441, proclaimed EX CATHEDRA
This is clear as crystal! Can’t our Holy Father speak like this?!!!
Just a quick interruption to provide some historical facts.
This doctrine (of papal infallibility was) defined dogmatically in the First Vatican Council of 1869–1870, but had been defended before that, appearing already in medieval tradition and becoming the majority opinion at the time of the Counter-Reformation
The Counter-Reformation (also the Catholic Revival[1] or Catholic Reformation) was the period of Catholic revival beginning with the Council of Trent (1545–1563)
Pope Eugene IV, born Gabriele Condulmer, was the head of the Catholic Church from 3 March 1431 to his death in 1447.
Before praising Pope Eugene VI too highly you might want to read a bit about him.
Carry on.
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." - Pope Eugene IV Cantate Domino, 1441, proclaimed EX CATHEDRA
This is clear as crystal! Can’t our Holy Father speak like this?!!!
Just a quick interruption to provide some historical facts.
This doctrine (of papal infallibility was) defined dogmatically in the First Vatican Council of 1869–1870, but had been defended before that, appearing already in medieval tradition and becoming the majority opinion at the time of the Counter-Reformation
The Counter-Reformation (also the Catholic Revival[1] or Catholic Reformation) was the period of Catholic revival beginning with the Council of Trent (1545–1563)
Pope Eugene IV, born Gabriele Condulmer, was the head of the Catholic Church from 3 March 1431 to his death in 1447.
Before praising Pope Eugene VI too highly you might want to read a bit about him.
Carry on.
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bilop
Guest
Well, the things he says about God not being a Catholic God, and people following whatever their conscience says, and people being too obsessed with abortion and marriage, and not wanting to convert an atheist, are way too easily misunderstood as supporting relativism, and indifferentism.
So, you are right, I don’t want to hear the Pope say those things. Those kind of statements don’t lead people to the truth of Christ and the Church.
Edit: There’s a reason Popes don’t tend to speak extemperaniously. Their words are given far too much weight to take the risks of mis-communication.
God Bless
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shelby_sun
Guest
I do not think he is sloppy at all. It sounds like you just don’t like the way he says things. The men who picked the Pope, who were inspired by The Holy Spirit knew how he spoke and how he lived his life. They felt he was the best person to lead the Church. Maybe they wanted us to get to a more positive message instead of focusing on the faults of others.
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TMC
Guest
I respectfully disagree. I think that his comments are not being misunderstood (although some don’t want to understand them). I also think his comments are thoroughly Catholic and are, in fact, leading those willing to listen to the Truth.
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shelby_sun
Guest
The Pope didn’t say those things and you putting it in your own words just makes it seem like you don’t even want to try to understand his message.
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bilop
Guest
I’m citing how his words are being reported in the press. How they are being heard by the masses.
I understand what he is trying to do. I just happen to think that it is an imprudent and approach to the current world.
God Bless.
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Lapey
Guest
These posts are out of line with forum rules not to mention ignorant of Church teaching and uncharitable. You bring no help to the matter by accusing the Holy Father of heresy.
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shelby_sun
Guest
I do not believe the masses are hearing it this way. Maybe this is just what is needed in the current world. What Jesus was going around saying upset many, but that didn’t stop Him from preaching His message. Maybe those who don’t like the Pope’s message are not being open to what God is trying to teach them.
Again the Pope is not a man who worked his way up in the Church hoping to become Pope. Many, many men who knew what the Church needed and knew this man felt he was the one who should lead the Church. I was not a big fan of Pope Benedict, but I had to have faith that the many bishops who selected him were truly inspired by the Holy Spirit.
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bilop
Guest
But, the people who don’t like the message tend to be faithful Catholics. The secularists love his message, b/c they think it means he’s going to change the rules on abortion, marriage, etc. (of course he has no such intention, nor does he have the power to do so.)
Quite frankly, the Pope has chosen an odd time to focus on poverty. The poor are doing better materially than at any point in history. But, they are falling apart spiritually, with the decline of marriage, rampant abortion, etc. The ills of poverty pale in the face of 40 million abortions a year.
God Bless
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shelby_sun
Guest
There are many, many faithful Catholic that like his message very much but they are the ones that do not focus on who should not go to heaven, but rather focus on trying to love and accept all of God’s children here on earth.
There are people on this site who are obviously very passionate about the abortion issue, which is great, but that does not mean that it is more important than all other issue in the world.
As for your opinion on the ills of poverty paling in the face of abortions you are very misleading. In 2013 the World Hunger and Poverty Facts and Statistic said that 870 MILLION people in the world were chronically undernourished. Now that might be less than last year but it is still 870 MILLION people who are suffering from hunger day in and day out day after day. Really, this pales in comparison or is abortion just your cause, which is great if it is, but when you make statements like you did, I, who am not pro-choice, really get turned off by your message.
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bilop
Guest
Loving and accepting people only works if it leads them to Christ.
Being hungry is terrible. But the reality is, that most of the population of the world throughout history probably met that definition of chronic undernourishment.
Our ancestors were all undernourished (unless you come from a line of nobility), yet, they refrained from murdering their children.
We should by all means help the hungry (and I personally give far more to charities aiding that poor than to pro-life charities). But, no one will go to Hell today because they were hungry. People will die and go to Hell this very day because of complicity in abortion, adultery, and lots of other sins.
The goal of the Church is to save souls.
God Bless
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peace2u2
Guest
I hate to burst the bubble here, but the women contributing to the 40 million abortions a year are not women who are poor financially but rather the educated college woman who loves the things of this world more than life itself.
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shelby_sun
Guest
No loving and accepting others in spite of their beliefs is what we are to do as Christians. Christ loved everyone, even those who did not follow HIm. We are all God’s children and He loves us all. That is where people are getting way off base with the Catholic Church. The Church has never said not to love and accept others if they don’t follow Christ, never. If you are waiting to hear that from Pope Francis, it is never going to happen!
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