Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

[CutlerB]

OK so I read the Pope’s letter, and I cannot figure out how this article got to that conclusion

Here is the relevant part of the letter:

“So I come to the three questions you put to me in the article of August 7. It seems to me that, in the first two, what is in your heart is to understand the attitude of the Church to those who don’t share faith in Jesus. First of all, you ask me if the God of Christians forgives one who doesn’t believe and doesn’t seek the faith. Premise that – and it’s the fundamental thing – the mercy of God has no limits if one turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart; the question for one who doesn’t believe in God lies in obeying one’s conscience. Sin, also for those who don’t have faith, exists when one goes against one’s conscience. To listen to and to obey it means, in fact, to decide in face of what is perceived as good or evil. And on this decision pivots the goodness or malice of our action.”

He never said non-believers would go to heaven.

Help me out here…where is this stated?

But doesn’t that presume a properly formed conscience? Why can’t an abortophile claim that her “conscience” allows her to kill her child?

A properly formed continence must be presumed, even if he Holy Father didn’t spell it out.

But how can a properly formed conscience exist outside of the Church?

I was wondering about all of that too. Simply obeying one’s conscience doesn’t mean that’s good. As YoungTradCath said, following a conscience that tells you “go, kill that guy” or “abort your child” results in sin. On the other hand, I do see a point in saying that not obeying one’s conscience is sin, which leads to a “lose-lose” situation. Therefore, a properly formed conscience must be presumed in what the Holy Father says.

 

[Robyn_p]

Reading over the letter, I noticed Pope Francis kept referring back to his encyclical. In fact it seemed like the whole conversation between the Dr and the Pope was about Lumen Fidei. He says this in the beginning of the letter,

I thank you, first of all, ***for the attention with which you read the encyclical Lumen fidei. ***The intention of my beloved Predecessor, Benedict XVI, who conceived it and to a great extent wrote it…is directed not only to confirm in the faith in Jesus Christ those who recognize themselves in it, but also to arouse a sincere and rigorous dialogue with those whom, like you, describe themselves “a non-believer for many years interested and fascinated by the preaching of Jesus of Nazareth.”

So I was like, if I wrote a letter to someone who wanted to talk about something else I’ve written, I probably would assume he read what I’ve already wrote, so I wouldn’t repeat things we both understand. If an outsider read my letter though, it might seem confusing.

So I looked up Lumen Fidei to see what some of it said about faith and works and salvation…IMO it makes sense of the whole letter. First, here’s part of it that talks about the necessity of faith for salvation

1. The life of faith, as a filial existence, is the acknowledgment of a primordial and radical gift which upholds our lives. We see this clearly in Saint Paul’s question to the Corinthians: “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor 4:7). This was at the very heart of Paul’s debate with the Pharisees: the issue of whether salvation is attained by faith or by the works of the law. Paul rejects the attitude of those who would consider themselves justified before God on the basis of their own works. ***Such people, even when they obey the commandments and do good works, are centred on themselves; they fail to realize that goodness comes from God. Those who live this way, who want to be the source of their own righteousness, find that the latter is soon depleted and that they are unable even to keep the law. They become closed in on themselves and isolated from the Lord and from others; their lives become futile and their works barren, like a tree far from water. *** Saint Augustine tells us in his usual concise and striking way: “Ab eo qui fecit te, noli deficere nec ad te”, “Do not turn away from the one who made you, even to turn towards yourself”.[15] Once I think that by turning away from God I will find myself, my life begins to fall apart (cf. Lk 15:11-24). The beginning of salvation is openness to something prior to ourselves, to a primordial gift that affirms life and sustains it in being. Only by being open to and acknowledging this gift can we be transformed, experience salvation and bear good fruit. Salvation by faith means recognizing the primacy of God’s gift. As Saint Paul puts it: “By grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God” (Eph 2:8).

1. Faith’s new way of seeing things is centred on Christ. Faith in Christ brings salvation because in him our lives become radically open to a love that precedes us, a love that transforms us from within, acting in us and through us. This is clearly seen in Saint Paul’s exegesis of a text from Deuteronomy, an exegesis consonant with the heart of the Old Testament message. Moses tells the people that God’s command is neither too high nor too far away. There is no need to say: “Who will go up for us to heaven and bring it to us?” or “Who will go over the sea for us, and bring it to us?” (Dt 30:11-14). Paul interprets this nearness of God’s word in terms of Christ’s presence in the Christian. “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)” (Rom 10:6-7). Christ came down to earth and rose from the dead; by his incarnation and resurrection, the Son of God embraced the whole of human life and history, and now dwells in our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Faith knows that God has drawn close to us, that Christ has been given to us as a great gift which inwardly transforms us, dwells within us and thus bestows on us the light that illumines the origin and the end of life.

1. We come to see the difference, then, which faith makes for us. Those who believe are transformed by the love to which they have opened their hearts in faith. By their openness to this offer of primordial love, their lives are enlarged and expanded. “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (Gal 2:20). “May Christ dwell in your hearts through faith” (Eph 3:17). The self-awareness of the believer now expands because of the presence of another; it now lives in this other and thus, in love, life takes on a whole new breadth. Here we see the Holy Spirit at work. The Christian can see with the eyes of Jesus and share in his mind, his filial disposition, because he or she shares in his love, which is the Spirit. In the love of Jesus, we receive in a certain way his vision. Without being conformed to him in love, without the presence of the Spirit, it is impossible to confess him as Lord (cf. 1 Cor 12:3).

Clearly, Pope Francis doesn’t believe in a salvation without faith in God or Jesus. He believes the same thing that the Bible teaches and the Catholic Church has always held. Without faith in Christ our works are empty and meaningless.

Continued…

 

[Robyn_p]

Then he says this about unbelievers, which makes much more sense of his statements in that letter.

1. The light of faith in Jesus also illumines the path of all those who seek God, and makes a specifically Christian contribution to dialogue with the followers of the different religions. The Letter to the Hebrews speaks of the witness of those just ones who, before the covenant with Abraham, already sought God in faith. Of Enoch “it was attested that he had pleased God” (Heb 11:5), ***something impossible apart from faith, for “whoever would approach God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him” ***(Heb 11:6). We can see from this that the path of religious man passes through the acknowledgment of a God who cares for us and is not impossible to find. What other reward can God give to those who seek him, if not to let himself be found? Even earlier, we encounter Abel, whose faith was praised and whose gifts, his offering of the firstlings of his flock (cf. Heb 11:4), were therefore pleasing to God. Religious man strives to see signs of God in the daily experiences of life, in the cycle of the seasons, in the fruitfulness of the earth and in the movement of the cosmos. God is light and he can be found also by those who seek him with a sincere heart.

An image of this seeking can be seen in the Magi, who were led to Bethlehem by the star (cf. Mt 2:1-12). For them God’s light appeared as a journey to be undertaken, a star which led them on a path of discovery. The star is a sign of God’s patience with our eyes which need to grow accustomed to his brightness. Religious man is a wayfarer; he must be ready to let himself be led, to come out of himself and to find the God of perpetual surprises. This respect on God’s part for our human eyes shows us that when we draw near to God, our human lights are not dissolved in the immensity of his light, as a star is engulfed by the dawn, but shine all the more brightly the closer they approach the primordial fire, like a mirror which reflects light. Christian faith in Jesus, the one Saviour of the world, proclaims that all God’s light is concentrated in him, in his “luminous life” which discloses the origin and the end of history.[31] There is no human experience, no journey of man to God, which cannot be taken up, illumined and purified by this light. The more Christians immerse themselves in the circle of Christ’s light, the more capable they become of understanding and accompanying the path of every man and woman towards God.

Because faith is a way, it also has to do with the lives of those men and women who, though not believers, nonetheless desire to believe and continue to seek. **To the extent that they are sincerely open to love and set out with whatever light they can find, they are already, even without knowing it, on the path leading to faith. **They strive to act as if God existed, at times because they realize how important he is for finding a sure compass for our life in common or because they experience a desire for light amid darkness, but also because in perceiving life’s grandeur and beauty they intuit that the presence of God would make it all the more beautiful. Saint Irenaeus of Lyons tells how Abraham, before hearing God’s voice, had already sought him “in the ardent desire of his heart” and “went throughout the whole world, asking himself where God was to be found”, until “God had pity on him who, all alone, had sought him in silence”.[32] Any-one who sets off on the path of doing good to others is already drawing near to God, is already sustained by his help, for it is characteristic of the divine light to brighten our eyes whenever we walk towards the fullness of love.

I believe this paragraph is the context of the conversation the Pope was having in his letter. The Dr. had already read this, and so presumably already knew Francis taught and believed we need faith in God to get to heaven. But wanted more details, do we believe God will forgive those who don’t believe? And we already know Francis’ answer.

Of course, we couldn’t expect the secular news to have read some of the Pope’s official writings to understand where he’s coming from and what he’s ACTUALLY taught and believes. Instead they twist a paragraph out of context of a letter to a specific individual. But for me, this context helped me understand a little better what the Pope was trying to say.

It just seemed unfair to assume the pope would so radically depart from Catholic doctrine like that article said. Turns out the Pope doesn’t believe or teach that, he was writing to a seeker who had already read his encyclical, and so didn’t see the need to repeat what he’d already said.

Yes, the Pope really is Catholic folks, no matter how badly the media wants him not to be.

Now I’m going to go and order Lumen Fidei and read the whole thing. The parts I read were pretty awesome.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

I personally believe there are skeptics and non-believers, who have by-and-large led good and fruitful lives regarding their fellow humanity, that by dint of God’s grace and love recieve even at their last breath a ‘Damascus Moment’ of revelation that allows for them to become conciled/reconciled through Jesus, and thus qualified for Heaven.

I also believe that prayer and appeals to God can ‘move’ His Divine Mercy in such a direction.

 

[CaptFun]

Do they call that the St. Thomas Scholarship?

I’d better read that story. From the headline it looks like skeptics might just keep on being skeptical … but with a little more peace of mind now.

http://fearless-selling.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/the-thinker.jpg

**The Thinker: ** "Do I have to believe in God to go to heaven? Where did I leave those clothes?

**John 3:16 ** For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9 ** The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you,* not wishing that any should perish*** but that all should come to repentance.

Hmm. If one should come to repentance - yet without believing … uch: - I’m no Jesuit theologian. This gives me pause. Must re-read, but it may not help.

OK. Read as far as Pope Francis’ commenting upon God’s boundless mercy. And remembered:

Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will.”

:coolinoff: - phew. HIS call. Got it now.

 

[kmcarl56]

Oh man. The protestants are going to have a field day! I’ve spent the better part of my Catholic life saying that the Church does not teach that you earn your way to heaven but rather that through Works AND Faith we are saved. Turns out. It is only works…

I am a Protestant, and I’m not having a “field day” with this. The Pope does NOT say in the aforementioned article that people who do not believe in God will go to Heaven just because s/he is consciencously a moral person. To me, it would be ridiculous for anyone to assume such nonsense coming from the Pope. Clearly, if one is a Christian who believes that the words of the Bible are the Truth, and the only Truth, then only one verse is needed for clarity regarding this matter: John 3:16.

However, for the people in remote areas of the world who have never been taught about our Christian God or Jesus, but worship a living God they believe to be the one and only God, would it be up to us to judge whether or not they will go to Heaven? God is a gracious and merciful God. He hand-picks the people He allows into His kingdom. After all, isn’t that where we all came from in the first place?

And what about the young people who live as invalids or disabled and cannot get up and do good works? Jesus didn’t tell us that we have to go out into the world and make sure everyone notices all the “good works” we have done in our lives. He just tells us to love one another without prejudice, and to spread the Good News of salvation to everyone we meet.

So, no, our works on earth do not guarantee us acceptance into God’s kingdom… no more so than the tithes we give to the Church can buy our way into Heaven.

Christianity, in my way of thinking, just isn’t all that complicated. We need to simply concentrate on what we ourselves, as individuals, do and say in this world to God’s glory, and to invite as many souls as we can to salvation by teaching them how to believe and act in accordance with the commandments given to us by the one and only wonderous sacrificial lamb, Jesus Christ.


All He ever asks us to do is love Him, ourselves, and all of those around us in this world, and to do our BEST at following His commandments…which includes non-judgement of our fellow wo/man.

It is all really quite simple.

May God bless you and keep you all the days of your life from now until eternity.

 

[Gricken]

I personally believe there are skeptics and non-believers, who have by-and-large led good and fruitful lives regarding their fellow humanity, that by dint of God’s grace and love recieve even at their last breath a ‘Damascus Moment’ of revelation that allows for them to become conciled/reconciled through Jesus, and thus qualified for Heaven.

I also believe that prayer and appeals to God can ‘move’ His Divine Mercy in such a direction.

^ this

 

[crazzeto]

But how can a properly formed conscience exist outside of the Church?

1. I think the real point which allows this is redemption, which the church is part of this mission. But I don’t know that the church is the sum total of it.
2. St. Paul argues that you can form your continence, i.e. know what is morally just and unjust from observation of nature.

I think it is much much harder to have such a formation outside of the church. Especially today. But I don’t think it’s impossible.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

…Simply obeying one’s conscience doesn’t mean that’s good…a properly formed conscience must be presumed in what the Holy Father says.

This is where I sense the Holy Father’s message can get lost in translation. He said ‘follow your conscience’, which can very easily be taken out of context. As someone else noted, when taken in context with the encyclical he was referring to, it is clear faith in God is key for entrance into Heaven.

I suppose the message would be taken out of context regardless of what he said when one stops to think about it. People have been taken Sacred Scripture out of context for thousands of years now.

 

[captainmike]

Oh man. The protestants are going to have a field day! I’ve spent the better part of my Catholic life saying that the Church does not teach that you earn your way to heaven but rather that through Works AND Faith we are saved. Turns out. It is only works…

This plus his “Who am I to judge gay people?” will give Protestant pastors something to talk about for the next 500 years. I really wish the Pope’s advisors would help him to understand that every word he utters matters greatly.

 

[coachkfan1]

This plus his “Who am I to judge gay people?” will give Protestant pastors something to talk about for the next 500 years. I really wish the Pope’s advisors would help him to understand that every word he utters matters greatly.

Sadly, I agree with you. In the modern world that we live in, people’s perception IS their reality. There are so many misconceptions about the Catholic Church already and I think that these type of statements just add to those misconceptions and actually border on the appearance of modernism, i.e. that the Church is changing its doctrine to conform to the world. Notice, I said it gives the APPEARANCE, not that that is what the Holy Father is actually saying.

 

[crazzeto]

This plus his “Who am I to judge gay people?” will give Protestant pastors something to talk about for the next 500 years. I really wish the Pope’s advisors would help him to understand that every word he utters matters greatly.

Sadly, I agree with you. In the modern world that we live in, people’s perception IS their reality. There are so many misconceptions about the Catholic Church already and I think that these type of statements just add to those misconceptions and actually border on the appearance of modernism, i.e. that the Church is changing its doctrine to conform to the world. Notice, I said it gives the APPEARANCE, not that that is what the Holy Father is actually saying.

I think what matters most is seeking the heart of God, regardless of the consequence (even at the expense of annoying protestants). This Pope has said much in a way which I wish perhaps, he had not said it. But I do appreciate these challenges, they remind me to throw off my ever present ideologies and to simply replace them with seeking His will. (It should be noted, the subject matter of this thread was just one more time lol).

 

[captainmike]

I think what matters most is seeking the heart of God, regardless of the consequence (even at the expense of annoying protestants). This Pope has said much in a way which I wish perhaps, he had not said it. But I do appreciate these challenges, they remind me to throw off my ever present ideologies and to simply replace them with seeking His will. (It should be noted, the subject matter of this thread was just one more time lol).

What “present ideologies” do you need to throw off? My Bible says that Jesus is the only way to the Father. Doesn’t yours?

 

[john654]

Fact: Pope Francis did not say, “You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven”.

 

[Otche_Nash]

Its heresy, false teaching.

 

[captainmike]

Fact: Pope Francis did not say, “You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven”.

No, he didn’t. But, when he talks about moral and theological issues, he has a very bad habit of saying things that easily lend themselves to misinterpretation. Although he probably did not intend to do so, he gave the impression that accepting Christ is not essential for salvation.

The Church’s teaching should be very simple: “Christ is the only way to Heaven of which we know; therefore, all people should accept him now.” Any teaching that waters down that essential truth is harmful.

 

[blue_lily]

Keep in mind that the Pope was widely reported as ‘changing Catholic teaching on homosexuality’ when he was actually just repeating orthodox Catholic teaching on the subject. I went right to the source on this as well, and the interpretation seemed different from the media portrayal to say the least.

I think part of the issue here is that Francis now has a reputation, a very strong one, as a Pope who cares for the poor, etc. So the media may be trying to force him to fit the mold they want him to fit, rather than deal with someone who both (say) opposes same-sex sexual activity, and believes it’s important to have faith in God, yet whole also cares for the poor and is against war.

Well said, well said! The media are trying to twist Francis’ words because his words, his actions, his self, are powerful, and he is winning people over to the Light.

This begins to look like the media is on the Other Side.

 

[crazzeto]

What “present ideologies” do you need to throw off? My Bible says that Jesus is the only way to the Father. Doesn’t yours?

… I’m not quite sure what you are trying to get at with this. I guess perhaps your much better than I, and you never find your self in error or on the wrong path (even when you were firmly seeking the right one).

As for me, I can find my self far too caught up in the debate. Too caught up in the debate with athiests, with gay marriage advocates, pro-abortion advocates, you name it. So caught up you can fail to see the human element. Yes, I admit it, I fail all too frequently to attempt to look on others with Gods eyes.

Yes, I appreciate the Holy Father for bringing me back to center. This isn’t to say I don’t try to do this all the time, but I guess I’m just not as good at it as I would like to be.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Well said, well said! The media are trying to twist Francis’ words because his words, his actions, his self, are powerful, and he is winning people over to the Light.

This begins to look like the media is on the Other Side.

Who are all these people he is winning over to the light? Atheists?

Look, we can explain away what the Pope said, we can give it context. But it is what it is. He said it. One only has to follow one’s conscience. You can talk about “well formed” or some sort of qualifier, but that is not what he said.

This will be used by many to justify many things. From ABC to homosexual marriage.

What I do not understand is why this does not apply to those who disagree with the church on other issues. Why is it that one need only follow ones conscience if you do not believe in God or his Church but if you say you are Catholic then it is all or nothing. It would seem the wide gate is the easier path to heaven here. No, confession needed as long as I am true to my conscience. This should apply to Liberal Catholics and Traditional Sedevacantitsis as well.

 

[crazzeto]

Its heresy, false teaching.

what is heresy and a false teaching?