Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

[LibralAteoJesus]

Veridical16,

I never said any Catholic should apologize for their beliefs. I post questions or my opinion, but I claim to know nothing. Others however seem to “know” all there is know about God and what will and will not happen, which frankly shocks me. Whoever claims that they really understand God is simply someone I have no interest in talking to; that to me is unbelievably arrogant, verging on insane.

There are people who post here that I can easily see getting to the gates of heaven just to argue with God when they find out that every single doctrine in the Catholic Church is not accurate. They are the ones that will argue that He shouldn’t be letting in so and so, instead of embracing God’s love and forgiveness.

When someone has an answer for everything and “knows” they are right, I don’t see that has faith. I believe that Pope Francis has a deeper faith than any Pope in my lifetime. Only my opinion. All I know right now is I am not worthy.

The Pope isn’t saying anything new; he’s speaking according to this:

In Lumen Gentium paragraph 16:

Those also can attain to salvation who through
no fault of their own do not know the Gospel
of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God
and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do
His will as it is known to them through the
dictates of conscience. {(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for
salvation to those who, without blame on their
part, have not yet arrived at an explicit
knowledge of God and with His grace strive to
live a good life.}

And this:

" They demonstrate that God’s law is
written in their hearts, for their own
conscience and thoughts either accuse
them or tell them they are doing right" Romans 2:15

And this: Matthew 25:31-46

 

[KEP1983]

The Pope isn’t saying anything new; he’s speaking according to this:

In Lumen Gentium paragraph 16:

Those also can attain to salvation who through
no fault of their own do not know the Gospel
of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God
and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do
His will as it is known to them through the
dictates of conscience. {(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for
salvation to those who, without blame on their
part, have not yet arrived at an explicit
knowledge of God and with His grace strive to
live a good life.}

And this:

" They demonstrate that God’s law is
written in their hearts, for their own
conscience and thoughts either accuse
them or tell them they are doing right" Romans 2:15

And this: Matthew 25:31-46

Well said.

And I don’t see anywhere in the original letter from Pope Francis saying anything about atheists being saved by doing good. He actually said they need to seek Him. The quote that the media took to say Pope Francis says atheists can go to Heaven by following their conscience was “God’s mercy has no limits.” Yet the full quote was "“Given – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits, if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,” Quite strange, yet the liberal media will try to spin Pope Francis to fit their narrative.

 

[KEP1983]

Uhh, he’s quoting Lumen Gentium-- an infallible document from Vatican II.

Lumen Gentium is infallible, the Catechism is not.

I know modernists and liberals try their hardest to say no one is in hell. But Jesus, the Bible, and the Saints and Doctors of the Church say otherwise. This whole idea that no one or barely anyone is in hell started within the past 40 years. But the Church was founded 2,000 years ago, not in 1962.

Whoops. I think I misread who was writing to who? This thread and it’s writers is getting a little confusing to me right now.

 

[LibralAteoJesus]

Well said.

And I don’t see anywhere in the original letter from Pope Francis saying anything about atheists being saved by doing good. He actually said they need to seek Him. The quote that the media took to say Pope Francis says atheists can go to Heaven by following their conscience was “God’s mercy has no limits.” Yet the full quote was "“Given – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits, if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,” Quite strange, yet the liberal media will try to spin Pope Francis to fit their narrative.

I don’t think this is the explanation for what is mentioned in my previous reply; if a disbeliever approached to God with a repentant heart, that would no longer make him a disbeliever, I think the real meaning is about those who die as disbelievers, yet lived a good life according to their own knowledge.

“Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to
live a good life.”

 

[McCall1981]

Well said.

And I don’t see anywhere in the original letter from Pope Francis saying anything about atheists being saved by doing good. He actually said they need to seek Him. The quote that the media took to say Pope Francis says atheists can go to Heaven by following their conscience was “God’s mercy has no limits.” Yet the full quote was "“Given – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits, if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,” Quite strange, yet the liberal media will try to spin Pope Francis to fit their narrative.

This is exactly what I thought too. I dont entirely see how people got the atheists go to heaven thing out if this quote, but apparently they did.

 

[KEP1983]

I don’t think this is the explanation for what is mentioned in my previous reply; if a disbeliever approached to God with a repentant heart, that would no longer make him a disbeliever, I think this talks about who dies as disbelievers, yet lived a good life according to the knowledge they had.

I think we just posted around the same time. I was confused who’s supporting which position and who’s writing towards who.

But you’re right, if a person approaches God through a repentant heart, he would obviously no longer be an unbeliever.

The Pope said nothing about atheists being saved by being good people or following their conscience.

The Pope’s approach here is to get people to observe their conscience and realize they are sinners. When they realize they’re sinners they’re more likely to turn to God in repentance. If you’ve ever seen “Way of the Master,” Pope Francis is using a kinder-more-Catholic but similar approach…

youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A

The approach is this: 1) most people think they’re “good people” and are often numb towards God 2) get to their conscience through the 10 commandments 3) show them they’re not really good, but are really sinners 4) give them the good news of the Gospel

Pope Francis is using a similar approach here. He’s trying to get atheists to observe their conscience and realize they’re sinners, rather than getting into abstract debates about God’s existence.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Whoops. I think I misread who was writing to who? This thread and it’s writers is getting a little confusing to me right now.

Yeah I am on the Lumen Gentium Side!!

 

[LibralAteoJesus]

I think we just posted around the same time. I was confused who’s supporting which position and who’s writing towards who.

But you’re right, if a person approaches God through a repentant heart, he would obviously no longer be an unbeliever.

The Pope said nothing about atheists being saved by being good people or following their conscience.

The Pope’s approach here is to get people to observe their conscience and realize they are sinners. When they realize they’re sinners they’re more likely to turn to God in repentance. If you’ve ever seen “Way of the Master,” Pope Francis is using a kinder-more-Catholic but similar approach…

youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A

The approach is this: 1) most people think they’re “good people” and are often numb towards God 2) get to their conscience through the 10 commandments 3) show them they’re not really good, but are really sinners 4) give them the good news of the Gospel

Pope Francis is using a similar approach here. He’s trying to get atheists to observe their conscience and realize they’re sinners, rather than getting into abstract debates about God’s existence.

I think what the Pope said is clear but some Catholics don’t like the thought that someone without faith can get to Heaven.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I wrote this on a Protestant friends Facebook post. He was very eager to post the news story and attack the Pope.

And he claimed Atheists are in fact saved??

I did not read that anywhere.

It is the duty of every man to follow his conscience. After all God breathes life into every man. God’s truth is in the conscience of every man. And so if we TRULY follow our conscience we will find God there and hopefully listen to that prompting and seek Christ. This is what the Pope is encouraging.

The Catholic Church teaches there is no salvation outside of Christ. However we have Hope (although not assurance) that in Gods justice, those who of no fault of their own have not heard of Christ, could be saved by seeking God, and following his truth written in their hearts.

It is easy for someone to take things wrongly when they have not studied the Catholic Faith. The official teaching is the Catechism of the church and a cursory glance at the catechism will bring this into perspective.

The pope is not a universalist. If he was he would close every church. The pope is an evangelist and a shepherd and is working hard to get people to stop looking at the world selfishly and to start seeking God. Start there and let it blossom later.

If you recall the Media took a similar comment way out if context a couple of months ago, claiming the pope said atheists are saved.

Here is a link to a Vatican response which clarifies the teaching and prompted retractions to be printed in many media outlets.

I would simply ask that you study up on Catholicism a bit before you beat it up. After all the Catholic Church gave you your Bible along with 2000 plus years of Christian scholars and study.

Thanks!

zenit.org/en/articles/explanatory-note-on-the-meaning-of-salvation-in-francis-daily-homily-of-may-22

 

[Jon_S_1]

I think what the Pope said is clear but some Catholics don’t like the thought that someone without faith can get to Heaven.

Someone without faith cannot get to heaven.

I challenge you to support your statement with The Bible and the Catechism.

I will start.

BIBLE

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Matthew 10:32 “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.

Romans 5:8-9 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 10:9-10 “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

John 3:16-21 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. This is the verdict “Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized , every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of Holy Spirit.

I Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

John 5:24 I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 11:25,26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; (26) and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.” Do you believe this?”

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Isaiah 53:4a, 5-6 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows…
He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

John 6:47 Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 10:9 I am the gate. Whoever enters by me will be saved.

John 14:1-3 Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

John 14:6 Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 10:36,39,40,43 Jesus Christ–he is Lord of all. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree; but God raised him on the third day….everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

Acts 16:30-31 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They answered, “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 10:13 Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

 

[KEP1983]

I think what the Pope said is clear but some Catholics don’t like the thought that someone without faith can get to Heaven.

And where did the Pope say that atheists can get to Heaven without faith?

What the Pope said was:

“Given – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits, if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,”

Let me emphasize that again:

***“if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,”
“if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,”
“if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,”
“if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,”
“if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,”
“if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,”
“if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,”
“if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,”
“if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,”
“if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,”
“if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,”
“if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,”
“if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,”
“if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart,” ***

 

[captainmike]

My Southern Baptist mother called my tonight and asked, “DO YOU WANT YOUR CHILDREN TO GO TO HEAVEN?!”

I didn’t have to ask to what she was referring; I already knew.

But she explained anyway, referencing the Pope’s most-recent statement and the one he made a few weeks ago about gays.

Tragic.

Millions of protestant Christians like my mom are already inclined against our Church. But, until just recently, I could always say, “Surely, you are impressed by my church’s teachings on marriage and abortion, right?”

Now, that plea will fall on deaf ears. All she will ever remember are his most-recent pronouncements.

I really wish somebody could get to the Pope and help him to understand how harmful statements like this are.

 

[Veridical16]

Does it strike anyone else that the Vatican is having to do a lot of explaining of this pope’s words and actions? I’m not saying that he was technically wrong on any of the following:

• Washing the feet of a Muslim woman on Holy Thursday
• His remarks concerning homosexuality
• His comments concerning Atheists following their consciences

However, it seems to me that he has been misunderstood on several occasions in a very short period of time.

Is this a case of a newbie pope not realizing that he’s not in Kansas anymore and that every word he utters will be scrutinized and flashed around the world in seconds?

I notice that a lot we Catholics are assuring others that the Pope said nothing new.
That is not the issue.
What he said in the last three times have been bungled and poorly worded, and that’s just how it is.

Remember when St. Peter made errors in judgment when it came to circumcision, and the eating with gentiles? these things will happen.

We the faithful know what the Pope is referring to, but the very fact that we know people in our own Catholic families will abuse what he said to justify themselves, means how far we’ve gone from the faith and the intention of Christ’s Church here on Earth. Two hundred years ago, the Pope would have been able to say the same thing without scandal possibly in his private letter, but now men don’t even know that their conscience can be malformed!
Everyone is caught up in private judgments and the error of rugged individualism is rampant from the period of the enlightenment and the fruits of Americanism, the heresy of Modernism has produced its fruits.

Not only does it encourage enemies of the Church to be opportunistic with every misleading morsel of headline fodder, it promotes a temptation to the Church laity, and those with the Supernatural virtue of faith to become fearful as if Jesus leaves the boat every time Peter’s seat is changed.

Notice how the Pope is never technically unorthodox. The Devil and the demons are legalists. They will twist his words.
All our scrambling just as the apostles did in times of adversity and storms the Church undergoes even when walking WITH Jesus means we have much work to do.

 

[McCall1981]

I think what the Pope said is clear but some Catholics don’t like the thought that someone without faith can get to Heaven.

They can’t.

The only ways they can be saved are either to convert (go to God with a sincere and contrite heart, exactly as Pope Francis said), or to be invincibly ignorant of the Gospel (in which case it is possible that God could save them). An atheist that is aware of the Gospel is not saved.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

My Southern Baptist mother called my tonight and asked, “DO YOU WANT YOUR CHILDREN TO GO TO HEAVEN?!”

I didn’t have to ask to what she was referring; I already knew.

But she explained anyway, referencing the Pope’s most-recent statement and the one he made a few weeks ago about gays.

Tragic.

Millions of protestant Christians like my mom are already inclined against our Church. But, until just recently, I could always say, “Surely, you are impressed by my church’s teachings on marriage and abortion, right?”

Now, that plea will fall on deaf ears. All she will ever remember are his most-recent pronouncements.

I really wish somebody could get to the Pope and help him to understand how harmful statements like this are.

BUT it wasn’t Pope Francis who made that statement in the paper --it was the person reporting.

Pope Francis did not say what the paper ‘said’ that he said.

Same thing about the supposed “who am I to judge” quote. Seen in the context of the whole exchange, he wasn’t endorsing ‘gay’ behavior or saying he couldn’t state that such behavior is objectively sinful. . .but some reporter cherrypicks a few words and suddenly tries to make those words reflect something other than what the Pope said.

Don’t you remember, Mike, how they tried to claim that Pope Benedict said condom use was a moral choice? (and of course he said nothing of the kind.)

Or how about way back in his early Papacy when they tried to claim that a QUOTE he was making about Muslims was really his own words?

Please, please, please do not fall into the trap of thinking that the Pope is revising doctrine or changing Church teachings. He is not.

 

[captainmike]

Can someone post a link to the Pope’s ENTIRE letter that resulted in this controversy? I’d like to read it word for word.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Can someone post a link to the Pope’s ENTIRE letter that resulted in this controversy? I’d like to read it word for word.

zenit.org/en/articles/pope-francis-letter-to-the-founder-of-la-repubblica-italian-newspaper?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+zenit%2Fenglish+(ZENIT+English

 

[Veridical16]

coachkfan1:

I am uneasy about what the pope said, but I love my Church and my Christian brothers and sisters throughout the world, so I will continue to be obediant and respectful to the Holy Father and will try to show that same respect to my brothers and sisters, even the ones with whom I may vehemently disagree.

When watching for the Holy father and praying for the him, especially before the tabernacle, I think it’s good to not get caught up in the Cult of Personality, so that we not be scandalized or fear being scandalized by every action or future action (this is what those tempted to Sedevecantism do)

While the general laity can get caught up in the cult of personality of the pope , neglecting that he is our Earthly father and deserving of our filial attention, we no more put him on a pedestal, as we do our own parents.
This cult of personality can be seen on both the heterodox Catholics of the traditional or liberal bent.
If they truly believed what they did about the office of Peter they know Christ’s promise prevails, so the arguing over preference of individual persons personalities within the office is a waste of time.

The secular press in a perverse way also get suckered in the Cult of personality which is why they’re so adamant on spreading their anti-Gospel by monitoring him at all times too and put him on a pedestal EVEN though they’re not supposed to believe or take seriously anything this “one religion of many” is doing…
They did it to Benedict when he had that hypothetical about Condom use, and they did it to Pope JPII before him on the place of Hell.

The crux of the matter when it comes to salvation of those ignorant.
Luke

But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

Regardless of the media flare ups due to a poor word here or there. There should be no fear.

We ought to follow his lead, he is reaching out to the atheists, and pagans and homosexuals and we are to do the same in the post-Christian of the West.

Also the clamoring over the Pope is too much focus on the Visible Head, placing expectations we would have from the Invisible Head upon his steward too much. The pope is in a special place and calling where not one of us can understand in terms of God’s judgment, so we definitely have to redouble our efforts in prayer for him.

It is Jesus and his Mother with the Pope who will ultimately rectify all things in the way we desire. And spiritually whom we rest our hopes on, not the Pope in his daily endeavors like this personal letter which is still open to folly or a misstep.

Remember when Pope Benedict made an early mistake in his pontificate that resulted in many angry Muslims?
The focus on the Pope in his daily is too much attention to the material world and the Horizontal, and the visible world.

That’s why we should always remember the words from the Blessed Mother, “the Holy Father will have much to suffer”

 

[captainmike]

zenit.org/en/articles/pope-francis-letter-to-the-founder-of-la-repubblica-italian-newspaper?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+zenit%2Fenglish+(ZENIT+English

everybody should read this from start to finish before commenting.

then, we should share this with our protestant friends who are scandalized by this.

 

[Veridical16]

BUT it wasn’t Pope Francis who made that statement in the paper --it was the person reporting.

Pope Francis did not say what the paper ‘said’ that he said.

Same thing about the supposed “who am I to judge” quote. Seen in the context of the whole exchange, he wasn’t endorsing ‘gay’ behavior or saying he couldn’t state that such behavior is objectively sinful. . .but some reporter cherrypicks a few words and suddenly tries to make those words reflect something other than what the Pope said.

Don’t you remember, Mike, how they tried to claim that Pope Benedict said condom use was a moral choice? (and of course he said nothing of the kind.)

Or how about way back in his early Papacy when they tried to claim that a QUOTE he was making about Muslims was really his own words?

Please, please, please do not fall into the trap of thinking that the Pope is revising doctrine or changing Church teachings. He is not.

In other words,

Pray, Hope, and Do Not Worry

• St Padre Pio