E
Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven
- Status
Missed that on the first read.
O
Origen52
Guest
I think you are not being fair to einna,
“Originally Posted by einna
I have a hard time understanding why any one would care if a good, caring Atheist got to go to heaven. If you trust in God, you should not need to know why. I practice my faith because I believe in it. My main focus is not being saved or who else will be saved, it is serving God here and now the best I can, loving God, myself, and other whether they are believer or not.”
What this poster is saying is that our focus should not be on Hell, but on loving God.
The act of contrition states:
O my God, I am heartily sorry for
having offended you, and I detest
all my sins, because of Your just
punishments, but most of all because
they offend You, my God, who are
all-good and deserving of all my love.
So we do good not to avoid hell, but because we love God.
You are also concerned about telling people about Jesus, but Mother Teresa of Calcutta taught that acting in a loving way was the best way to profess our faith.
"“There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic. We believe our work should be our example to people. We have among us 475 souls - 30 families are Catholics and the rest are all Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs—all different religions. But they all come to our prayers.”
Mother Teresa
ewtn.com/motherteresa/words.htm
Would you accuse Mother Teresa of not loving others? Or of not being a good Catholic?
Finally Our Lady taught the children at Fatima to pray for “all souls” not just Christian souls.
Take all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of your mercy.
Who would be more in need of God’s mercy than someone who is unable to believe in him?
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
Just a slight flaw in your reasoning here (or your assumptions). “Salvation for one’s own soul” must always be our first priority: not because that implies self-centeredness. It does not.
(1) Salvation is not achievable without charity. (Therefore, there is no contradiction about “concern for salvation” being other-focused.)
(2) No one else can achieve my own salvation but me. No one else is responsible for my own salvation, but I. Excuse my French, but I damn well better be, or I will find myself very surprised at the Particular Judgment, that I didn’t focus enough on my own salvation.
(3) There’s nothing shameful about looking forward to reward. In this case, the reward is not merely for oneself. The reward is perfect union with God, which by definition is self-emptying, in its efforts and its ends. We won’t be preening in some mirror when we achieve the Beatific Vision. We will be adoring The Other. Second, the fruits of achieving union with God will be empowerment to assist those still on earth in their own salvation, something not possible for us after death until we are removed from purgatory.
God wants to reward us and wants us to look forward to that reward. We call imperfect contrition the focus on fear of Hell, but interestingly it is not described as a desire for Heaven. Working on our salvation, and desiring Heaven, is holy.
When we’re working earnestly on our own salvation, we are in fact honoring God. And The Spiritual Exercises are very much “working on your salvation,” rightly so.
E
einna
Guest
Elizabeth I now remember you reported me in March because you didn’t like what I had to say and it seems to be the case again. No our love of God and living are faith always comes first. The way you present things is much more Protestant. Yes putting your salvation first is putting your own desires before God. I am not going to argue the point with you and I am not teach falsely Church teachings as I consulted 2 priest today. Maybe it is you who need to consult a priest.
I also learned that after Vatican II that the Catholic Church changed its teaching on who could be saved and they no longer teach that only Catholics will be saved. That comes direct from a 88 year old priest who joined the priesthood when he was fifteen.
P
polki
Guest
Thank you for your response.
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
(1) No. I Reported you for violating forum rules when you said that several of us who softly explained some doctrine to you “didn’t know much about being a Christian.”
(2) No, it has nothing to do with “not liking what you say.” It has to do with correcting you on the Catholic facts, not the Protestant facts.
That is called focusing on salvation. That is the path to salvation: loving God and living our faith. It has nothing to do with “focusing on ourselves.” When we’re focused on our salvation we’re focused on God. I’m surprised you don’t know that.
This is all contained in the Catechism, especially Part One of that. It wouldn’t appear so.
The EENS doctrine is still intact; it is merely approached differently now. No, Vatican 2 did not change the doctrine of salvation. It changed how we understand and explain the pathway to that salvation. There’s a technical explanation of this, I believe, on the main Catholic Answers website.
Have a nice day, einna. Try not to assume that the many people who correct you are “unChristian,” “Protestant,” or “need to see a priest.”
E
einna
Guest
I am sorry but you are simply wrong. The Catholic Church no longer teaches that only Catholics can be saved. I believe my priest over anyone on this forum, and yes if you want to continue to express false teachings of the Church you do need to consult a priest. I would never go to a link from this site for the correct answer over a priest. The Pope was speaking on just that point and brother explained quite well. I don’t assume anything, accept that you are wrong in these matters.(1) No. I Reported you for violating forum rules when you said that several of us who softly explained some doctrine to you “didn’t know much about being a Christian.”
(2) No, it has nothing to do with “not liking what you say.” It has to do with correcting you on the Catholic facts, not the Protestant facts.
That is called focusing on salvation. That is the path to salvation: loving God and living our faith. It has nothing to do with “focusing on ourselves.” When we’re focused on our salvation we’re focused on God. I’m surprised you don’t know that.
It wouldn’t appear so.
The EENS doctrine is still intact; it is merely approached differently now. No, Vatican 2 did not change the doctrine of salvation. It changed how we understand and explain the pathway to that salvation. There’s a technical explanation of this, I believe, on the main Catholic Answers website.
Have a nice day, einna. Try not to assume that the many people who correct you are “unChristian,” “Protestant,” or “need to see a priest.”
I would say to anyone one who wants to know the true teaching of the Church to consult a priest or several if you feel the need, but do not go by people on this website, including myself. Have a nice day Elizabeth.
G
Gricken
Guest
It is true that non Catholics CAN be saved. The church also teaches this is not likely. I’m pretty sure this is where the idea of “Invincible Ignorance” comes in. While nobody really knows who is invincibly ignorant, we shouldn’t count on it for others salivations.
E
ephesians2
Guest
Einna, thank you for your response. What is honoring to God?
E
ephesians2
Guest
I am aware of this quote by Mother Teresa (I believe from her book, A Simple Path?) and with all due respect, I don’t agree with her. I understand that many on this thread will agree with her and that I will most likely be chastised for this comment, but I do not agree with Mother Teresa. I would not want a Hindu to become a better Hindu and continue worshipping false gods that do not exist instead of Jesus Christ. This is contrary to what God told the Israelites in the Old Testament, to what Christ and the apostles taught in the New.
I do wholeheartedly agree with you though, that you do not force your beliefs on anyone. You do not kill men, women and children because they do not adhere to your teachings and rules/traditions. I also agree that we, as Christians, are to pray for all people, believing and unbelieving that they may come to know the love and salvation of Jesus Christ the Savior.
C
clem456
Guest
I see your point, but I believe what she is expressing is, the Church’s teaching that God is calling to all people right where they are, and that all faiths have -elements of- the truth, while not being the fullness of truth that the Church expresses. If a person does not know Christ, and is in dire need, she provided for those needs out of love, without trying to evangelize a person who is not in a position to convert. She did all this with a crucifix hanging from her neck. If a person is not in a position to convert to Christianity, wouldn’t God want them to more fully live the truth they know? I always have to keep in mind that faith is a gift from God.
F
franklinstower
Guest
^^^^^^
I like the above post. It is obvious to me that God- the one true God- shows up to all sincere people (In Gods judgement) regardless of what name they are using for God. This is the crux of it. There are some Hindus who are more holy and spiritual than some Catholics. Being Christian- even one who is really trying, does not automatically make you more in tune with God than being a Hindu or Buddhist.
I like the above post. It is obvious to me that God- the one true God- shows up to all sincere people (In Gods judgement) regardless of what name they are using for God. This is the crux of it. There are some Hindus who are more holy and spiritual than some Catholics. Being Christian- even one who is really trying, does not automatically make you more in tune with God than being a Hindu or Buddhist.
E
ephesians2
Guest
I agree God shows up to sincere, but also to the insincere. Look at Paul (Saul).
I agree Hindus are spiritual, but they are not Spiritual. They are plenty of spiritual people in this world who are trying to gain something by being “good” according to the world’s standards. The Pharisees were the same way. Christ said in Matthew 23, “Everything they do is done for people to see.” and “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."
I would disagree with your statement above. Being a CHRISTian ***does ***make you more in tune with God than a Hindu or Buddhist. A CHRISTian professes Christ as their Savior- a requirement of eternal life with the True God ( Father, Son, Holy Ghost). A Hindu or a Buddhist does not profess Christ as their Savior.
E
ephesians2
Guest
Yes, I understand what you are saying here. I think God calls people where they are too, but doesn’t He also call us to deny ourselves, pick up our cross and follow HIM(Mark 8:34)? HE is the Way, Truth and Life (John 14:6).
C
clem456
Guest
Yes he does call us to give our whole selves and follow him.
For me as a Catholic, that means following the Gospel as the Church teaches me, because I have heard and try to believe. That’s who I am.
How did I hear? God has blessed me with a Catholic heritage that goes back generations, 12 years of Catholic school, a bible in the house my whole life, a Catholic wife, a parish right down the street where I can safely worship .Tremendous blessings.
For a Hindu who has not had those particular blessings and does not believe in Christianity (not the same as rejecting it). that’s not who he is. But he is still blessed by God in ways I may not understand. He still has the opportunity to love and serve others and to listen to God. Perhaps one of these people Mother helps come to participate in her ministry. Now perhaps they start down the road to Christianity. They may patiently become a Christian.
I think Mother Teresa is saying she accepts people at face value, right where they are. And works with the blessings that God himself has given that individual. And that does not compromise the faith one bit.
F
fulbert4605
Guest
Is this article serious? The conscience is by its nature, flawed. Original Sin and such. Yet we can follow our conscience and go to Heaven? Then why did Jesus die for us?
O
Origen52
Guest
Many devotional texts actually force one to think that Christian faith in the Cross imagines a God whose unrelenting righteousness demanded a human sacrifice, the sacrifice of his own Son, and one turns away in horror from a righteousness whose sinister wrath makes the message of love incredible.
This picture is as false as it is widespread. In the Bible the Cross does not appear as part of a mechanism of injured right; on the contrary, in the Bible the Cross is quite the reverse: it is the expression of the radical nature of the love that gives itself completely, of the process in which one is what one does and does what one is; it is the expression of a life that is completely being for others.
Pope Benedict (Introduction To Christianity, 2nd Edition (Communio Books) )
And above all, what a strange attitude that actually is, when we no longer find Christian service worthwhile if the denarius of salvation may be obtained even without it!** It seems as if we want to be rewarded, not just with our own salvation, but most especially with other people’s damnation—**just like the workers hired in the first hour. That is very human, but the Lord’s parable is particularly meant to make us quite aware of how profoundly un-Christian it is at the same time. Anyone who looks on the loss of salvation for others as the condition, as it were, on which he serves Christ will in the end only be able to turn away grumbling, because that kind of reward is contrary to the loving-kindness of God.
(Then-Father Joseph Ratzinger on salvation outside the Church
1964 homily)
C
clem456
Guest
F
FathersKnowBest
Guest
F
franklinstower
Guest
I am speechless-- literaly.
- Status