Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

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peace2u2 said:
I hate to burst the bubble here, but the women contributing to the 40 million abortions a year are not women who are poor financially but rather the educated college woman who loves the things of this world more than life itself.
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Correct. I don’t disagree with you. Plus, there are lots of sex-selection abortions in Asia, among both rich and poor.

God Bless
 
shelby_sun said:
No loving and accepting others in spite of their beliefs is what we are to do as Christians. Christ loved everyone, even those who did not follow HIm. We are all God’s children and He loves us all. That is where people are getting way off base with the Catholic Church. The Church has never said not to love and accept others if they don’t follow Christ, never. If you are waiting to hear that from Pope Francis, it is never going to happen!
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We are to love them, but not to confirm them in their error.

Accept them as people, but never accept their incorrect beliefs, and never stop trying to lead them to Christ.

God Bless.
 
bilop said:
We are to love them, but not to confirm them in their error.

Accept them as people, but never accept their incorrect beliefs, and never stop trying to lead them to Christ.

God Bless.
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Well I am sorry but I do not think I am going against the Church if I don’t try to convert all the very faithful Jews in the world.
 
shelby_sun said:
Well I am sorry but I do not think I am going against the Church if I don’t try to convert all the very faithful Jews in the world.
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You don’t need to try and convert them personally. But, you do have to believe that they will only be saved through Jesus Christ.

Judaism has no salvific power since Christ died. The rending of the Temple veil is the symbol of this in the Gospels.

Even the OT faithful and the righteous non-Jews had to wait for Christ to come to them in Limbo Patrum to gain entrance to Heaven.

God Bless
 
bilop said:
Well, if the Pope says things that appear to contradict doctrine of the Church (and I stress appear; I don’t think the Pope means to contradict doctrine, I just think he is just sloppy in his communication), you can understand why people wouldn’t like the content.

God Bless
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I would say rather there is an issue with understanding doctrine, a bit of Feenyism floating around. This is why we should open our Catechism and not try and prooftext 600 year old documents.

It may be just me, but it looks like those who are misinterpreting the Pope are the same groups that have always misinterpreted Popes; those on one side who want the Church to be totally watered down (indifferentism, liberal, modernism, whatever term you want) and those on the other side that want the Church to be very exclusive to their stricter beliefs (phariseism, ultratraditionalism). The Holy Father is speaking to both groups. It is safest to assume he means what he says and is speaking as he meant.
 
bilop said:
Loving and accepting people only works if it leads them to Christ.

Being hungry is terrible. But the reality is, that most of the population of the world throughout history probably met that definition of chronic undernourishment.

Our ancestors were all undernourished (unless you come from a line of nobility), yet, they refrained from murdering their children.

We should by all means help the hungry (and I personally give far more to charities aiding that poor than to pro-life charities). But, no one will go to Hell today because they were hungry. People will die and go to Hell this very day because of complicity in abortion, adultery, and lots of other sins.

The goal of the Church is to save souls.

God Bless
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I respect your right to disagree with his holiness. I don’t agree with those whose main response, to genuinely felt concerns, is to claim it was said by the pope so so it has to be right. That is as incorrect a statement of catholic doctrine, as claiming that the church teaches only Catholics can achieve salvation.

Perhaps, as a community we need to speak to each other respectfully about issues like abortion. I will begin by saying that In my experience most abortions are motivated by economic instability. Most women know they are carrying a child, not a clump of tissue. The motivators which cause mothers to end the lives of their children must be very strong. A strong motivator is fear. Fear of not being able to cope financially. The difficulty, and sometimes impossibility, of finding societal support to help raise a child, by providing such things as affordable day care, paid maternity leave, the ability to earn a liveable wage, are contributing factors to many women’s decision to have an abortion. Few women have a child torn from their wombs on a whim. So, perhaps the way to stem these deaths is by working for a society where all human life is valued. The way to ending abortion might well be through working for social justice. You can not achieve respect for life through the legal systems. You might be able to force a woman to give birth to a child, but then what?
 
peace2u2 said:
I hate to burst the bubble here, but the women contributing to the 40 million abortions a year are not women who are poor financially but rather the educated college woman who loves the things of this world more than life itself.
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The United Nations are behind the abortion clinics in most Third World countries. Some European countries have bilateral aid to some of these countries with strings attached: legalize abortions to receive the donations which are sometimes in the millions of US$, and dispense condoms in public schools. The condoms are given as part of the donation.

No official records are kept for these abortions and the clinics do not promote publicly they are performing abortions. So the 40 million abortions you mention are probably double if not more worldwide.
 
bilop said:
You don’t need to try and convert them personally. But, you do have to believe that they will only be saved through Jesus Christ.

Judaism has no salvific power since Christ died. The rending of the Temple veil is the symbol of this in the Gospels.

Even the OT faithful and the righteous non-Jews had to wait for Christ to come to them in Limbo Patrum to gain entrance to Heaven.

God Bless
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I have a hard enough time making sure I live my own life in accordance with The Catholic Church and teaching my faith to my children. I will only be saved through Christ because I believe he is our savior. I have no idea what will happen to others. I believe God has His own plan that no one on earth could possibly know.
 
bilop said:
You don’t need to try and convert them personally. But, you do have to believe that they will only be saved through Jesus Christ.

Judaism has no salvific power since Christ died. The rending of the Temple veil is the symbol of this in the Gospels.

Even the OT faithful and the righteous non-Jews had to wait for Christ to come to them in Limbo Patrum to gain entrance to Heaven.

God Bless
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Lumen Gentium
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  1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind… for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.
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gracepoole:
And you’ll notice nowhere does Lumen Gentium say that anyone will be saved through (modern) Judaism or Islam. Because they can’t.

It is de fide, and plain Gospel truth that salvation can only come through Christ.

John 14:6
Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.
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No one will be saved who does not eventually recognize Christ as Lord and God, even if it is only in the last moment of their life when Christ comes to them and gives them the choice.

Jews and Muslims may reach Heaven, but their will be no Jews or Muslims in Heaven. They will all have to be converted to Christ before they could get there. Just like the OT faithful had to wait in limbo until Christ came to preach to them following His death, and before His Resurrection.

God Bless
 
Only a Fool said in his Heart there is no God. One does not have to believe in God ,what kind of statement is that? it may have been for before Jesus came to live by ones conscious, Now we have No excuse, once one has heard the word there is No excuse.
Jesus said NO man comes to the Father accept through me.
I am not sure what part of Gods word is not understood here.
Sounds like Mans way again, this statement to me may well have its consequences ,as many popes I have read and studied about from past years and many Dangerous quotes, I am dismayed at, I find many deceiving words spoken even claiming that forgiveness of sin is through a Pope and one does not have to go to God for forgiveness amongst many other deceiving quotes.
 
pnewton said:
I would say rather there is an issue with understanding doctrine, a bit of Feenyism floating around. This is why we should open our Catechism and not try and prooftext 600 year old documents.

It may be just me, but it looks like those who are misinterpreting the Pope are the same groups that have always misinterpreted Popes; those on one side who want the Church to be totally watered down (indifferentism, liberal, modernism, whatever term you want) and those on the other side that want the Church to be very exclusive to their stricter beliefs (phariseism, ultratraditionalism). The Holy Father is speaking to both groups. It is safest to assume he means what he says and is speaking as he meant.
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Code: 
mmm   There Is only One Holy Father and that is God, as Jesus said.
 No Man is Holy. I hope you mean God as Holy Father.
 
Bible_is_truth said:
mmm There Is only One Holy Father and that is God, as Jesus said.
No Man is Holy. I hope you mean God as Holy Father.
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No, I was referring to the Pope. It is a common name for him. If you think we should not refer to any person as holy, I recommend you read how St. Paul referred to the people of the Christian communities. He called people “holy” all the time. God called people Holy. Man, this is all over the Bible. Just “keeping to God’s word.”
 
Bible_is_truth said:
Only a Fool said in his Heart there is no God. One does not have to believe in God ,what kind of statement is that? it may have been for before Jesus came to live by ones conscious, Now we have No excuse, once one has heard the word there is No excuse.
Jesus said NO man comes to the Father accept through me.
I am not sure what part of Gods word is not understood here.
Sounds like Mans way again, this statement to me may well have its consequences ,as many popes I have read and studied about from past years and many Dangerous quotes, I am dismayed at,** I find many deceiving words spoken even claiming that forgiveness of sin is through a Pope and one does not have to go to God for forgiveness **amongst many other deceiving quotes.
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Can you provide that quote. I’ve never heard that from any Pope.
 
Bible_is_truth said:
Only a Fool said in his Heart there is no God. One does not have to believe in God ,what kind of statement is that? it may have been for before Jesus came to live by ones conscious, Now we have No excuse, once one has heard the word there is No excuse.
Jesus said NO man comes to the Father accept through me.
I am not sure what part of Gods word is not understood here.
Sounds like Mans way again, this statement to me may well have its consequences ,as many popes I have read and studied about from past years and many Dangerous quotes, I am dismayed at, I find many deceiving words spoken even claiming that forgiveness of sin is through a Pope and one does not have to go to God for forgiveness amongst many other deceiving quotes.
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I’m not sure what sources you’ve been reading but thankfully, God isn’t bound to respond to fools as is described here.
 
bilop said:
And you’ll notice nowhere does Lumen Gentium say that anyone will be saved through (modern) Judaism or Islam. Because they can’t.

It is de fide, and plain Gospel truth that salvation can only come through Christ.

John 14:6

No one will be saved who does not eventually recognize Christ as Lord and God, even if it is only in the last moment of their life when Christ comes to them and gives them the choice.

Jews and Muslims may reach Heaven, but their will be no Jews or Muslims in Heaven. They will all have to be converted to Christ before they could get there. Just like the OT faithful had to wait in limbo until Christ came to preach to them following His death, and before His Resurrection.

God Bless
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But of course this is semantics at this point. Pope Francis is discussing atheists in this life, not what they’ll be when they are saved.
 
Hopefully I am not getting off track here, or maybe this question should be another thread, but I was wondering why so much attention is being given to what the Pope said here? I believe in my faith, it is meshed into everything I do, think, feel. Why does it matter what God does or doesn’t do with atheist? Does it really have anything to do with ones own relationship to God? Would it change your faith if you found out they may actually be saved through God’s mercy? For me it does not. I believe what I believe and I worry about how I can best serve and love God everyday.

I understand his comment make people believe that now others will think they can just go and do anything and still be saved, but if you think about it, there are not that many true atheist and they don’t think about “being saved” because they don’t believe in an afterlife or a god.

All I know is if I make it to Heaven, I will bow down and thank God for His forgiveness and mercy on my soul, no matter who is standing in front of me or behind me.
 
pnewton said:
No, I was referring to the Pope. It is a common name for him. If you think we should not refer to any person as holy, I recommend you read how St. Paul referred to the people of the Christian communities. He called people “holy” all the time. God called people Holy. Man, this is all over the Bible. Just “keeping to God’s word.”
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Granted 🙂
 
shelby_sun said:
Hopefully I am not getting off track here, or maybe this question should be another thread, but I was wondering why so much attention is being given to what the Pope said here? I believe in my faith, it is meshed into everything I do, think, feel. Why does it matter what God does or doesn’t do with atheist? Does it really have anything to do with ones own relationship to God? Would it change your faith if you found out they may actually be saved through God’s mercy? For me it does not. I believe what I believe and I worry about how I can best serve and love God everyday.

I understand his comment make people believe that now others will think they can just go and do anything and still be saved, but if you think about it, there are not that many true atheist and they don’t think about “being saved” because they don’t believe in an afterlife or a god.

All I know is if I make it to Heaven, I will bow down and thank God for His forgiveness and mercy on my soul, no matter who is standing in front of me or behind me.
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The argument about whether atheists can go to heaven is really a proxy argument.

The underlying question is how ought one live one’s life. Whether one goes to heaven is the ultimate judgement on one’s life. While we can’t actually know who goes to heaven, saints notwithstanding, we can speak in generalities.

There are those, many Catholics included, who feel that all this Catholic stuff is well and good if you’re into that sort of thing. But if you’re not, well, no big deal. We’re all God’s children and that’s really what matters. Kumbaya.

Those who regard the Church’s teachings as important are more likely to question whether atheists can go to heaven. It’s not that they hate athests and wish them ill. It’s that they believe what we do in life, what we make of ourselves, matters. And getting to heaven is the ultimate measure of what matters.

It also bears on the evangelical mission of the Church. If atheists can go to heaven why exactly do we need to convert them to Christianity? We’re not doing them any favor by it. Let them be.
 
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