Pope Francis calls for big changes in Roman Catholic Church

[Country_Gal]

From the BBC article

Pope Francis calls for power to move away from Vatican

“Excessive centralisation, rather than proving helpful, complicates the Church’s life and her missionary outreach,” he says in the latest document.

He also says he does not believe that the papacy “should be expected to offer a definitive or complete word on every question which affects the Church and the world”.

The document does restate the Church’s opposition to abortion but concedes that “it is also true that we have done little to adequately accompany women in very difficult situations,… especially when the life developing within them is the result of rape or a situation of extreme poverty”.

“Who can remain unmoved before such painful situations?” he asks.

"Today we also have to say "thou shalt not" to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills," he says, going on to castigate the "new idolatry of money".

“I beg the Lord to grant us more politicians who are genuinely disturbed by the state of society, the people, the lives of the poor!” he goes on.

This month the Vatican launched an unprecedented survey of the views of lay Catholics on modern family life and sexual ethics.

 

[Genesis315]

That last sentence Country Gal quotes is pretty ignorant. The “survey” was not of lay people, was not about their views on modern family and sexual ethics, and was not unprecedented. Such requests for information happen with every Synod, it was sent to bishops, to be sent to parish priests, and dealt with how well the people understand or have knowledge of the Church’s doctrines, not what lay people’s personal views of them are. It was only the British bishops who put it online for anyone (not just Catholics, but anyone, including any internet trolls :whacky to answer.

 

[christofirst]

I just read the part in Evangelii Gaudium that says, “No to warring among ourselves”
Does that apply to CAF too?

Already, as I look over the blogosphere, everyone seems to be grabbing hold of whatever the Holy Father said that appears to agree with whatever issues they think are most important (and perhaps ignoring those which make them uncomfortable!). .

 

[Theophorus]

That last sentence Country Gal quotes is pretty ignorant. The “survey” was not of lay people, was not about their views on modern family and sexual ethics, and was not unprecedented. Such requests for information happen with every Synod, it was sent to bishops, to be sent to parish priests, and dealt with how well the people understand or have knowledge of the Church’s doctrines, not what lay people’s personal views of them are. It was only the British bishops who put it online for anyone (not just Catholics, but anyone, including any internet trolls :whacky to answer.

What Country Gal quotes is the oft ill-informed(esp. when it come to religious matters) BBC. However it is worth pointing out that many bishops are seeking this information from their flocks in order to ‘see where people are at’, in a real sense to “find out what lay people’s personal views of them are”. What Auntie Beeb doesn’t realise of course is that this is not an opinion poll for change but a tool in order to better catechise and evangelise our own people first and then the world. We need to know where people are in order to bring the Gospel to them.

 

[clem456]

After reading some of this, it is a straight-up challenge to the powerful of this world. Sections roughly 52-60 seem to be an indictment of capitalism.

 

[Cojuanco]

capitalism is not the enemy, its the over regulation of the government that has crippled true capitalism. When the common man with a good idea cannot even get a loan or backing for it, he instead tries to earn enough to start a business. But the common working man can barely work hard enough for the basic needs let alone save up for entrepreunership that will set him free. The reason more and more ‘rich’ people try to cheat on taxes is because everybody is paying excessive taxes. The money for charity (the real heros in the world) is being sucked up by the giant vacuum of government.

I once belonged to a church that was being harassed by an over zealous fire dept for every little nook and cranny. You comply or they shut your doors. You have to change out your stove, vent, emergency doors (that cost $1000’s) That is what is wrong. Our government and those that work for it are crazy.

But the Church has never stood for lassiez-faire capitalism, though. Government involvement in the economy is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is when the rulers are bad that the people suffer from intervention.

 

[ByzantineCA]

Change isn’t such a bad thing. He is just calling us to be more willing to go to the poor and preach the gospel. It isn’t like he is changing Dogma or Tradition.

Which is why I don’t understand when the Pope confounds conservatives and liberals. They have been straight-forward messages about the Church’s urgent need to return to basics.

 

[ByzantineCA]

After reading some of this, it is a straight-up challenge to the powerful of this world. Sections roughly 52-60 seem to be an indictment of capitalism.

Amen! Being pro-life also includes respecting God’s Creation and encouraging just economic systems. As folks can yet again see, he reaffirms the culture of life and states that it is not “progressive” to take human life, especially of the unborn. Pro-Life is a spectrum of beliefs, not just a singular political notion. This is a great leader for our weary pilgrim Church.

[SIGN]God bless Papa Francisco![/SIGN]

 

[Joannm]

That last sentence Country Gal quotes is pretty ignorant. The “survey” was not of lay people, was not about their views on modern family and sexual ethics, and was not unprecedented. Such requests for information happen with every Synod, it was sent to bishops, to be sent to parish priests, and dealt with how well the people understand or have knowledge of the Church’s doctrines, not what lay people’s personal views of them are. It was only the British bishops who put it online for anyone (not just Catholics, but anyone, including any internet trolls :whacky to answer.

Our bishop put it out for anyone to answer.

 

[SurfingTheTiber]

Our bishop put it out for anyone to answer.

Our bishop also put it out for wider response. Our adult faith formation committee and parish council were given opportunities to respond. My responses have already been submitted.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Which is why I don’t understand when the Pope confounds conservatives and liberals. They have been straight-forward messages about the Church’s urgent need to return to basics.

It does not seem to me Pope Francis has departed in any way from the economic messages of the Popes who have written the Social Encyclicals. It does seem he has shifted emphasis a bit to personal conversion as the preliminary (and perhaps necessary) condition for an economic situation that secular, non-Christian ideologies have failed to produce. But I don’t think any of the previous Popes said otherwise, either.

 

[irishpatrick]

It seems to me that the Holy Father is more concerned about getting more people onto the safety of the Ark (Holy Mother Church), than concerning himself with other matters. It seems, also, to me, that the Holy Father senses a need for a radical reorientation of how the Church approaches its evangelizing message in order to get more souls onto that same Ark. In this area, placing a greater emphasis on loving and helping the poor (always good), can also result in more souls coming into the safety of the Ark.

In light of the state of the world, imo, all people should wonder why the Pope is going in this direction…what does he see, or sense, that most people are missing–he is NOT changing teachings, he is changing how the Church seeks souls, and he seems to really, really desire the salvation of souls (always a good thing). The Pope is spreading a message that has something for everyone, while also not wholly supporting any one faction (other than the poor)…he is casting a very wide net (conservative Catholics see he is not changing teachings, while liberal Catholics see he is being much more outspoken about the poor…a very wide net indeed,).

In other words…what would make the details of practicing our daily faith less important than gathering more souls into the Roman Catholic Church?

If you were a modern Noah, and you knew a flood was coming soon, would you ignore the people around you because they do not wholly line-up to your faith perspective, or would you welcome them onto your ark so they too can escape the coming turmoil?

Probably all wrong–just my thoughts.

[Perhaps prayer for all souls around us, for their conversion, salvation, and guidance, is in order?]

 

[mikekle]

And in yet other news that took place during a media coffee break:“The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering person - every person - needs: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need. … In the end, the claim that just social structures would make works of charity superfluous masks a materialist conception of man: the mistaken notion that man can live ‘by bread alone’ (Mt 4:4; cf. Dt 8:3) - a conviction that demeans man and ultimately disregards all that is specifically human.” (Pope Benedict XVI, Encyclical Deus Caritas Est, 2005, 28)

Now we need to see if his advice is taken or just glanced over and forgotten. In regards to that comment about the ‘state’, Im betting it will be glanced over and forgotten, or mis-interpreted.

 

[Marie5890]

Unbridled capitalism is surely the seeds of the idolitry of money.

Even JP11 talked about it…

We in the west are blinded by it because it’s so wrapped up in our politics, which is another idol for those of us living in the western culture. The need to win, the need to beat our opponent.

 

[HerrZJA]

capitalism is not the enemy, its the over regulation of the government that has crippled true capitalism. When the common man with a good idea cannot even get a loan or backing for it, he instead tries to earn enough to start a business. But the common working man can barely work hard enough for the basic needs let alone save up for entrepreunership that will set him free. The reason more and more ‘rich’ people try to cheat on taxes is because everybody is paying excessive taxes. The money for charity (the real heros in the world) is being sucked up by the giant vacuum of government.

I once belonged to a church that was being harassed by an over zealous fire dept for every little nook and cranny. You comply or they shut your doors. You have to change out your stove, vent, emergency doors (that cost $1000’s) That is what is wrong. Our government and those that work for it are crazy.

Nothing Christ or the Apostles wrote has ever been a favourable argument for capitalism, except, if you really stretch it, “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.” It’s simply not a Christian Ideal - not that that’s necessarily a condemnation.

The condemnation is in the numerous exhortations against the accumulation of wealth, which is, I’m pretty sure, what the Holy Father was talking about…

As to the overzealous fire dept, better to be approved under the fire code than to have no coverage in your property insurance when your outdated stoves and vents burn the place down, or when someone gets hurt because the emergency doors aren’t up to code, nicht war? My own parish recently had to replace the emergency doors because of a fire inspection - they could not be opened from the inside if they were locked from the outside. A common problem for my cousin, who used to stay after mass for private prayers and then would need to call the Pastor on his cellular to get the door unlocked to leave.

 

[mikekle]

Unbridled capitalism is surely the seeds of the idolitry of money.

Even JP11 talked about it…

We in the west are blinded by it because it’s so wrapped up in our politics, which is another idol for those of us living in the western culture. The need to win, the need to beat our opponent.

Agreed, I am the only one who wonders why the american public is just sitting there accepting all this? I am amazed all the time at what our society seems to just accept, whether it be new taxes, fees, etc, new restrictions, regulations, etc. A few people may complain and whine, write emails to people, etc, but in the end, nothing more is ever done and the public just accepts it!!

In decades past, the public would ban together if they did not agree with something and literally march down the streets with torches, pitchforks, shotguns! Maybe todays society is so worn down and weak, they do whatever they are told without question.

I often wonder what would happen if a group of men attempted to do an act like what was done at the Boston tea party…I can pretty much guarantee, all those involved would be arrested and labeled domestic terrorists and most people watching this on the evening news would agree! I think alot of people have completely forgotten what it is to be an american citizen. we have certain requirements, laid out in the Constitution, but we refuse to abide by them.

 

[irishpatrick]

Two words can be used to describe the current state of material disorder in the USA:

BLACK FRIDAY

There is nothing wrong with Capitalism, unless it is taken to its extreme, which we in the USA have done. Creating/buying goods, and then selling those goods for a profit, is a very good thing for both sides of the deal. It is when we seek insanely high profits, or when we do not care about anything but the bottom line, or when we do not allow human concerns to enter into the equation–that is when the Capitalism train leaves the track.

Capitalism, when used properly, increases personal freedom, increases personal dignity, increases the height of a nation’s economic engine that drives a push for more jobs, etc. Capitalism, when used improperly, leads to a loss of freedom, loss of dignity, and a loss of jobs. This is why companies and corporations (and this very nation) needs to permanently focus on God–only in that can we keep a healthy Capitalism on the tracks safely offering hope and help to all who would avail themselves of its produce.

Black Friday, especially its newest version of starting on Thanksgiving, is a symptom of a greater sickness–a nation devoid of real morals that only come from God/Jesus.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Nothing Christ or the Apostles wrote has ever been a favourable argument for capitalism, except, if you really stretch it, “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.” It’s simply not a Christian Ideal - not that that’s necessarily a condemnation.

The condemnation is in the numerous exhortations against the accumulation of wealth, which is, I’m pretty sure, what the Holy Father was talking about…

In the Bible it says you shall not muzzle the ox that treads the grain. It says the laborer is worthy of his hire. If that isn’t supportive of paying for what you receive, I don’t know what is.

Where people get all hot and bothered is when they think about “wealth” in terms of outrageous superabundance, and everybody has his own idea what that is. Is it Bill Gates or is it a family with $400,000 in a 401K? Both? Maybe it’s somebody with $100,000 in savings; maybe $50,000 and no debts. Compared to some ordinary person in Zimbabwe, it’s having a full refrigerator and nothing else.

The Popes have talked about the acquisition of individual and family wealth ever since Pope Leo XIII. Every one of them did. None seem to be against it per se, but actually encourage it as giving people some independence from total consumerism and wage slavery on the one hand or government dependency on the other.

Google “Social Encyclicals” and you’ll see that I’m right.

 

[mikekle]

Where people get all hot and bothered is when they think about “wealth” in terms of outrageous superabundance, and everybody has his own idea what that is. Is it Bill Gates or is it a family with $400,000 in a 401K? Both? Maybe it’s somebody with $100,000 in savings; maybe $50,000 and no debts. Compared to some ordinary person in Zimbabwe, it’s having a full refrigerator and nothing else.

.

Ive said it before and I will say it again, I have a sneaky feeling the way most in the US population sees wealth and poverty is MUCH MUCH different than the way God sees these!!

I saw a survey somewhere recently, and they were talking about poverty in the US, and some figures from that study…

something like 98% of households in poverty had air conditioning, heat, electric, gas, etc. 95% had some kid of stove to cook on, a refrigerator to keep food cold, 95% had tv sets, computers, 90% had some form of cable/satellite/internet, or ‘pay tv’, there were more statistics, but this is the jist of it.

I was kind of surprised, but not really, in the US, those things are considered normal and everyone has them, but I think we fail to see those are ‘traditionally’ items rich and wealthy people have access to.

Im not saying there is not true poverty in the US, I know there is, but Im referring to those that think they are poor, but in the eyes of God, they are living in the lap of luxury, I guess its a form of being DE-sensitized in the US to such things and lifestyles though.

 

[Darryl1958]

Unbridled capitalism is surely the seeds of the idolitry of money.

Even JP11 talked about it…

We in the west are blinded by it because it’s so wrapped up in our politics, which is another idol for those of us living in the western culture. The need to win, the need to beat our opponent.

The other side of the coin is unbridled socialism, which is every bit as materialistic as unbridled capitalism., and would not be possible without coveting the possessions and the life of one’s neighbours.