Pope Francis calls for big changes in Roman Catholic Church

[Country_Gal]

The other side of the coin is unbridled socialism, which is every bit as materialistic as unbridled capitalism., and would not be possible without coveting the possessions and the life of one’s neighbours.

Yes, socialism is the idolatry of other people’s money.

 

[ProVobis]

Yes, socialism is the idolatry of other people’s money.

Is that why we want to borrow as much as we can?

 

[Country_Gal]

Is that why we want to borrow as much as we can?

Don’t include me in your statement. I am debt free.

 

[Darryl1958]

Is that why we want to borrow as much as we can?

I would say that borrowing is not a form of idolatry of money per as much as it is a calculated risk on enhancing the future. We borrow money to buy a house, in order to give ourselves an our children room to grow. We borrow money on a car in order to get to work to pay for that car. We borrow money to create a business now in order to provide goods that people want.
The idolatry aspect I think would enter in when people believe that the things that they can get for money is what will give their life purpose. It is not the things that we can get, or the pride that is fulfilled by getting all that our neighbors have that will fulfill any of us though.
It is the things that we can do with that money, borrowed or not, to make our world a better place that will fulfill us.
Capitalism in that regard can even be seen as a form of charity. It is the system whereby we deliver to people things that they want at a price that they can afford. Profit is a measure of how successful we have been in fulfilling the needs of others.

 

[Fogwalker]

I am not a fan of the total dismissal of the liberal media on this thread. If you recognize that the liberal media does not always get the story straight, then you already have a firm enough foundation in the truth that you shouldn’t be worried about flimsy half-truths on CNN or the BBC disrupting your faith. If you are serious about being a messenger of the Gospel, who are you delivering the message to? People who already get all of their news from CNS?

I read Catholic-friendly news reports and original sources for my own clarification. I read mainstream sources for their easy access and to better understand what the people around me are thinking, or at least understand what they are being told.

 

[Fogwalker]

Ive said it before and I will say it again, I have a sneaky feeling the way most in the US population sees wealth and poverty is MUCH MUCH different than the way God sees these!!

I saw a survey somewhere recently, and they were talking about poverty in the US, and some figures from that study…

something like 98% of households in poverty had air conditioning, heat, electric, gas, etc. 95% had some kid of stove to cook on, a refrigerator to keep food cold, 95% had tv sets, computers, 90% had some form of cable/satellite/internet, or ‘pay tv’, there were more statistics, but this is the jist of it.

I was kind of surprised, but not really, in the US, those things are considered normal and everyone has them, but I think we fail to see those are ‘traditionally’ items rich and wealthy people have access to.

Im not saying there is not true poverty in the US, I know there is, but Im referring to those that think they are poor, but in the eyes of God, they are living in the lap of luxury, I guess its a form of being DE-sensitized in the US to such things and lifestyles though.

So are you suggesting that poor people don’t deserve to have the same access to electricity, stoves, and refrigerators that you enjoy? Do you want them to study for their GEDs by candle light and churn their own butter for their kids’ plain toast (they toasted the bread on an open fire since they have no stove)? Or are you suggesting that the first world should revert to more of a hunter-gatherer lifestyle and forsake these luxury items?

I’m nearly certain that you did not mean either of those things, but that is exactly what is implied by the survey that you quote. To me, that survey was obviously meant to confuse the issue about poverty in the US. FoxNews is just as dangerous as CNN.

 

[ProVobis]

Don’t include me in your statement. I am debt free.

I didn’t mean you personally. I meant the way we conduct business in general around the world.

I would say that borrowing is not a form of idolatry of money per as much as it is a calculated risk on enhancing the future. We borrow money to buy a house, in order to give ourselves an our children room to grow. We borrow money on a car in order to get to work to pay for that car. We borrow money to create a business now in order to provide goods that people want.

But at the same time we drive the prices up for housing, our cars, goods we want. I lost my bid on a house, which I had cash for, to someone who outbid me with his loan. How was that good for me and my future?

 

[SuperLuigi]

Don’t include me in your statement. I am debt free.

If you live in America and are a US citizen, you’re not debt free. You owe the Japanese, Chinese and private bond-holders.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[seekerz]

From what I understand, the intent of Vatican II was not too much different than what Pope Francis is calling for. Big changes have already been underway for the greater part of my life, and more than half of the life of every individual still alive and kicking and posting here.

It is putting the faith into practice that leads to all sorts of practical problems however, and leads us into a cultural war.

Take poverty for example, since that is the big thing for Pope FI. So far we are all agreeing. We would all remain in substantial agreement to when it comes to charity as one Christian answer to meeting the needs to the poor.
And while we as a Church can always give more, I don’t think that good people who will be able to substantially change the way the Church already operates when it comes to poverty and charity, just be giving even more and more.

But the next step is inevitably going to lead us, and very like you and me even, into a cultural war. I might say that capitalism is what generates wealth, and is the prime weapon in the war against poverty. The right to private property is the basic groundwork of social justice, according to my view. You might counter with disdain for such capitalist ‘greed’, and promote redistribution of wealth as the proper Catholic response that would fulfill the needs of the social injustice of poverty.

And the war is on.

So without stepping into that battleground for a moment, and while fully admiring the intentions of the Pope as being decent and good, in terms of a new policy, I can see all sorts of practical problems arising that all the good intentions in the world are not going to solve.

Just as an aside, this is not a theological problem for me personally. I see the Church as Israel, the Jacob who struggles with man and God, and prevails.
Our morality is not defined with our agreeing, but in the passion that we bring into the fight.

I am not sure if the Pope might see it that way or not though. He seems to have tired of the cultural wars.

Ah, but the Pope’s view is and must be, global. So it’s not just what effect capitalism has on the poor in one country, but in other countries. What effect does consumer demand have on the working conditions of the poor in Bangladesh or Haiti, and how do international trade policies simultaneously grow and stunt economies in different parts of the world? That’s the big picture which the Pope has to speak to. Some of those issues are quite complex, and especially for those benefiting from the “greed is good” philosophies that hold sway in their financial sectors, appreciating the ramifications is not always easy.

 

[seekerz]

Ive said it before and I will say it again, I have a sneaky feeling the way most in the US population sees wealth and poverty is MUCH MUCH different than the way God sees these!!

I saw a survey somewhere recently, and they were talking about poverty in the US, and some figures from that study…

something like 98% of households in poverty had air conditioning, heat, electric, gas, etc. 95% had some kid of stove to cook on, a refrigerator to keep food cold, 95% had tv sets, computers, 90% had some form of cable/satellite/internet, or ‘pay tv’, there were more statistics, but this is the jist of it.

I was kind of surprised, but not really, in the US, those things are considered normal and everyone has them, but I think we fail to see those are ‘traditionally’ items rich and wealthy people have access to.

Im not saying there is not true poverty in the US, I know there is, but Im referring to those that think they are poor, but in the eyes of God, they are living in the lap of luxury, I guess its a form of being DE-sensitized in the US to such things and lifestyles though.

It works the other way too. In several countries I’ve visited, most middle-class families (that includes teachers, nurses, accountants) can afford a full time maid (to iron the sheets and water the plants - not just to clean either!) and the better paid professionals (doctors, lawyers etc) can afford drivers and gardeners too. A large percentage of those same people would not dream of installing air conditioning on the grounds that it is an unnecessary luxury. I say this just to show that making comparisons across cultures can be misleading.

To me the real test of poverty lies in defining the basic needs for a particular society and then determining whether the people in question in that society have the resources necessary to meet those needs. Food, clothing and shelter are all basic, but the type and amounts required, the resources needed to access them etc., all vary depending on where in the world you are.

 

[Darryl1958]

Ah, but the Pope’s view is and must be, global. So it’s not just what effect capitalism has on the poor in one country, but in other countries. What effect does consumer demand have on the working conditions of the poor in Bangladesh or Haiti, and how do international trade policies simultaneously grow and stunt economies in different parts of the world? That’s the big picture which the Pope has to speak to. Some of those issues are quite complex, and especially for those benefiting from the “greed is good” philosophies that hold sway in their financial sectors, appreciating the ramifications is not always easy.

The effect that capitalism has had on what will soon be the world’s biggest economy(China) has been very, very positive. It has lifted millions out of poverty and subsistence living.

Few, if any, really subscribe to a ‘greed is good’ philosophy, certainly not in the way that Catholicism describes greed at any rate.

The only ones that subscribe to the greed is good philosophy would be the drug cartels taking over Mexico, and other Central and Latin American economies. There would also be the ‘greed is good’ often Islamists gangs of Africa partaking in piracy and human trafficking of slaves.

It is not that the ‘greed is good’ philosophy is not out there, and it is not as if many of our secular culture that has done so much to cripple the Christian right and the values that the Christian right alone uphold. Certainly there are many in our own society that are successful psychopaths subscribing to a greed is good philosophy in their business dealings, more and more without A Christian voice out there to act as a brake and a conscience.
But this is on the main criminal behavior. It is not capitalism

The issue and the global economy indeed is complex; much too complex to divide the world into the big spending liberal camps, and the greedy.

That is really simplifying it to an absurdity and a total mischaracterization.

Unfettered capitalism is not the problem though. The problem is unfettered criminals.

 

[mikekle]

If you live in America and are a US citizen, you’re not debt free. You owe the Japanese, Chinese and private bond-holders.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

You are right, and the last time I heard the figures talked about, it was at around $75,000 for every man, woman, and child in the US, so nobody is debt free in the US, they only think they are.

 

[SwizzleStick]

If you live in America and are a US citizen, you’re not debt free. You owe the Japanese, Chinese and private bond-holders.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Yep. And, not just the previous and current generations, but the next generations too, children, grandchildren, etc., etc…

 

[Darryl1958]

I didn’t mean you personally. I meant the way we conduct business in general around the world.

But at the same time we drive the prices up for housing, our cars, goods we want. I lost my bid on a house, which I had cash for, to someone who outbid me with his loan. How was that good for me and my future?

We have to deal with the world as it is, and now how we would wish it to be.

The sellers of the house are not interested in whether the money is borrowed or in your pocket. It is no more idolatry to borrow money in order to make that investment than it is to save up for twenty years.
A smaller loan would likely have been a good investment for you, if it would have put you over the edge to get that house and meet the bids of the competition.

 

[Country_Gal]

If you live in America and are a US citizen, you’re not debt free. You owe the Japanese, Chinese and private bond-holders.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Uh, I carry no personal debt. You can mock that all you want if it makes you feel better.

 

[ProVobis]

A smaller loan would likely have been a good investment for you, if it would have put you over the edge to get that house and meet the bids of the competition.

Or maybe find a home which more fits into my philosophy. Which I did. We don’t all get that opportunity though.

 

[seekerz]

The effect that capitalism has had on what will soon be the world’s biggest economy(China) has been very, very positive. It has lifted millions out of poverty and subsistence living.

Few, if any, really subscribe to a ‘greed is good’ philosophy, certainly not in the way that Catholicism describes greed at any rate.

The only ones that subscribe to the greed is good philosophy would be the drug cartels taking over Mexico, and other Central and Latin American economies. There would also be the ‘greed is good’ often Islamists gangs of Africa partaking in piracy and human trafficking of slaves.

It is not that the ‘greed is good’ philosophy is not out there, and it is not as if many of our secular culture that has done so much to cripple the Christian right and the values that the Christian right alone uphold. Certainly there are many in our own society that are successful psychopaths subscribing to a greed is good philosophy in their business dealings, more and more without A Christian voice out there to act as a brake and a conscience.
But this is on the main criminal behavior. It is not capitalism

The issue and the global economy indeed is complex; much too complex to divide the world into the big spending liberal camps, and the greedy.

That is really simplifying it to an absurdity and a total mischaracterization.

Unfettered capitalism is not the problem though. The problem is unfettered criminals.

A series of Popes seem to disagree with your view, but then again, their knowledge and information are different from yours. Fortunately for us all, their religious faith is in Christ - not in worldly economic systems, so criticizing immorality when they see it, is neither a painful nor unnerving experience.

But I would be interested to know if you think capitalism, as you perceive it, is practiced anywhere at all.

 

[Darryl1958]

A series of Popes seem to disagree with your view, but then again, their knowledge and information are different from yours.

Do they now?
Is it your contention then that a series of popes are in unison with your own position, and that therefore you, like they , are a better Catholic?

Fortunately for us all, their religious faith is in Christ - not in worldly economic systems, so criticizing immorality when they see it, is neither a painful nor unnerving experience.

And , since I they are apparently in disagreement with my position, the opposite must be therefore true of me, that my religious faith is not in Christ, my faith IS in worldy economic systems, and that criticizing immorality when I see it is both painful and unnerving for me.
If that is not what you are saying, then you are saying nothing at all.

But I would be interested to know if you think capitalism, as you perceive it, is practiced anywhere at all.

Since I already gave you an example, you do not even have enough curiousity to contemplate what that example meant.
The example was China. That is an example of an economy that was based on strict centralized control and socialist dogma, and then it opened itself up to free market mechanisms, at least a limited basis initially. Poverty was not solved; enormous wealth was created. Overall, people became better off, even if crushing poverty still exists.

Capitalism as I perceive it is not perfect. It exists in a myriad of places, and in none of those places is the type of free markets that do exist perfect or beyond criticism or improvement.
Free markets exist in Canada. They exist in America, India and Europe.It is not as if they are unknown or non-existent; it is a question of less or more free, less or more influenced by criminal activity.

Markets run by criminal gangs, thugocracies such as exist in Russia under Putin, are neither free markets nor really capitalist, although the thugs in charge are becoming fabulously rich through exploiting them.

But maybe you disagree with this too. And if you do, certainly, the whole series of popes do to. For evidently the Catholic popes all disagree with the fact that capitalism has had a positive effect on China, that capitalism IS greed, that secular culture has not done much to destroy the Catholic conscience, that it is a simplification to divide the world into either a liberal camp and a greedy camp.
That is what you have contended, and I am sure that you now feel like a much better Catholic for having put me in my place as an anti-pope for saying otherwise.

 

[Darryl1958]

Or maybe find a home which more fits into my philosophy. Which I did. We don’t all get that opportunity though.

No we most certainly don’t. We all try to make it in this world with the tools provided to us.

But you did get that opportunity. That is what freedom is all about too.

 

[Darryl1958]

Uh, I carry no personal debt. You can mock that all you want if it makes you feel better.

I don’t think he was mocking you.
There is a point to be taken though for all Americans in general.
Take for example what is happening between China and America. In China, with a one child policy of forced abortion, the aged peasants are required to work until they drop, because they do not have the children to care for them. The money does exist to pay for old age security, but instead the government finds it useful to lend the money to America, so that America can go into debt to pay for old age security for their citizens, and much, much more when it comes to social welfare.

I think that it is commendable that you are not in debt, provided of course you are not forgoing a family for wont of room in your 400 sq foot studio, or something like that.

But the axiom is that no man is an island, and it is not overgeneralizing to assume that no gal would be an island either. It is interesting to note where some of that money is coming from and what the lenders are forgoing in order to provide it to us all collectively.

We are all part of societies that are going in debt to pay for our social programs