Pope Francis calls for civil union law for same-sex couples

[Anicette]

Recall that SSM is now widespread. In that context - can the existence of civil union laws do harm? Civil unions would be an improvement (in our eyes) compared with SSM. Of course, there is likely little to no demand for them. The gay community see them as 2nd rate and rejected them in the past.

you take the sitaution in the wrong order.

In many, certainely the majority of countries, where civil unions were created it was before SS marriage. Not in the other order.
And in some countries thoses civil unions are also for all “couples” regardless of the sexes of the partners.

civil unions are a step to prepare people’s minds. When same sex unions are normalized in the population it may be easier to reform the meaning of marriage. But not always as strong opposition happened sometimes (like in France).

Civil unions don’t necessary end with SS marriage. It is true when they are also for heterosexual people.

But what these unions definitely does is to weaken marriage. Couples make a civil union before or instead being married. It offered some advantages such as “exit” option on demand without having to divorce. Goods of the partners are not necessarily become into community. The partners are not bound to provide for the needs of the family “in law” members in need. There is no to little inheritance rights (which preverve the rights of the children or other family members).

We cannot said that theses unions and their consequences does any good on the stability of families and as a consequence society at all.

 

[Rau]

you take the sitaution in the wrong order.

In many, certainely the majority of countries, where civil unions were created it was before SS marriage. Not in the other order.

You are remarking on history not the present. I’m aware civil unions were proposed and tried in the past in some countries. Now that SSM is commonplace, can their provision do more harm, or do they offer a course distinct from and preferable to (in catholic eyes) to marriage?

civil unions are a step to prepare people’s minds.

That horse has bolted has it not? SSM is commonplace

We cannot said that theses unions and their consequences does any good on the stability of families and as a consequence society at all.

That may be right. Personally I think they are of little relevance in the 21st century given that SSM is here and in favour.

 

[Anicette]

In the worldwide, there are many countries with no same sex marriage.

And yes, civil unions do some harm. It is much more true when they concerned heterosexual partners. As it is a competition to marriage.

 

[Anesti33]

Trying2overcome:

The “good” these laws may offer do not, in my opinion, outweigh the bad that they will cause.

Recall that SSM is now widespread. In that context - can the existence of civil union laws do harm? Civil unions would be an improvement (in our eyes) compared with SSM. Of course, there is likely little to no demand for them. The gay community see them as 2nd rate and rejected them in the past.

What good would civil unions do? They are de facto marriages. Why should the State encourage and protect acts of sodomy? How does it benefit the Common Good?

 

[pnewton]

StarMapp:

I wonder what the letter to all those who through hard work and the help of the Holy Mother and operation Courage, have managed to trust their brothers and sisters who promised they can help turn their life around.

Too bad the Pope’s comments will probably be interpreted by some Courage members as “sorry you wasted your time here.”

I thought of this comment last night during the homily. Of course you know that some off the cuff remark by the Pope is not a policy, but it can reflect some truth. People in this situation still need legal protections, of some sort, as protection from unjust discrimination. More to the point the Church has to be welcoming to them. Courage can not be the sole solution, as it has never been the case where people have to first cleanse themselves of sin before being Catholic.

I think perhaps the people of Courage might have have a hard job of seeing the Church minister to these babes in the faith who have yet to grow in maturity. Those that follow the path of Courage (who are truly courageous, in my opinion) may not understand that not all have that fortitude. The Church is not changing its position on this issue. As long as that remains true, there is some room for patience in ministering to these people.

As one who is somewhat young (I assume from your name), know that most do not go through life without some spiritual crises. Satan is too good at what he does and will pounce from unknown quarters. It is a challenge to maintain holiness without haughtiness, but this is a good defense against the wiles of the enemy.

As always, thank you for your posts here. I have often found them thought-provoking.

 

[Polak]

Oh the EU thinks negative things about Poland. Shocking. Since when do Catholics care what the EU thinks? I don’t know if you’ve realised, but the EU isn’t exactly Christian friendly.

Those areas are not an attempt to tell ‘certain people’ they are not welcome. Poland can see what is going on in western Europe, where LGBT ideology is being pushed hard. Catholics (also those in western Europe) are concerned by this. Some parts of Poland are fighting back with these ‘zones’ as a way of letting people know that there won’t be any LGBT ideology pushed there. No pro LGBT education in schools, no LGBT propaganda posters around the town, no pro LGBT anything. That doesn’t mean if you’re gay you are not welcome in those places, it just means, don’t expect to be given a platform to talk about how normal gay marriage and gay relationships are.

I don’t think they picked a great name for the zones. I think that LGBT ideology free zones would be better rather than LGBT free zones, but hey, they chose the name they chose.

 

[billsherman]

That doesn’t mean if you’re gay you are not welcome in those places, it just means, don’t expect to be given a platform to talk about how normal gay marriage and gay relationships are.

I’m not so sure it is “welcom[ing]” to say that people are ok, they just can’t ever talk about their lives in public, or hold their significant other’s hand. It just seems like people found a new scapegoat. But that’s just me (and the EU, and France, and Norway).

 

[Polak]

You mentioned the EU, and France and Norway. Why? Do they have some type of authority on declaring what countries are good and what countries are discriminatory that I wasn’t aware of? Do you look to them to help you figure out how to live a moral life? Who else do you look to? Amnesty International perhaps? They fight for human rights do they not? They also believe abortion is a human right.

Yes absolutely, promoting the ideology isn’t welcome, no. The same way a gay person is welcome into a church, but they are not welcome to speak a the pulpit after mass about how much of a good thing it is to be in a gay relationship and how that type of lifestyle should be accepted as completely normal.

 

[StudentMI]

Amen, my friend.

 

[billsherman]

The same way a gay person is welcome into a church, but they are not welcome to speak a the pulpit after mass about how much of a good thing it is to be in a gay relationship and how that type of lifestyle should be accepted as completely normal.

Would a Jewish rabbi be prohibited from speaking about the Jewish requirement that LGBT people be accepted for who they are and that they are morally permitted to have same sex relationships under Jewish law?

Catholicism is not the only religion in Poland.

 

[OraLabora]

Catholicism is not the only religion in Poland.

Or anywhere else! Of course as Catholics were are called to live by Catholicism’s moral standards. We don’t have the right to impose those standards on others however. There are other moral codes besides our own in a pluralistic society.

If we want to have others live by our moral codes, the correct way is through evangelization.

 

[billsherman]

If we want to have others live by our moral codes, the correct way is through evangelization .

Indeed. According to the posts above, though, it appears as though Judaism is no longer welcome in a significant portion of Poland. That would be disappointing, and thoroughly anti-Catholic.

 

[Polak]

How on earth did this turn into Judaism not being welcome into Poland, and where did you get the idea that Judaism not only accepts homosexual relations but requires them? You’re quite the spin doctor.

 

[billsherman]

where did you get the idea that Judaism not only accepts homosexual relations but requires them?

Reform, Conservative, and Reconstructionist Judaism don’t require same sex relations, but they do accept them and require their adherents to accept them. Thus, you will sometimes hear a rabbi discuss them in a Synagogue. Is this forbidden in Poland’s LGBT Free Zones? From what you wrote above, it would be.

For a brief primer:

Same-sex marriage and Judaism - Wikipedia

 

[Polak]

You’re really reaching here.

When in Rome. Why should a minority get to promote something the majority don’t want? If I go to Saudi Arabia, I understand they might not want me standing in the middle of the street preaching about how Muhammad is a false prophet and they people need to embrace Christianity. However I would still expect to have the right to be a Christian.

 

[hope]

No. He is the successor to St. Peter. He is not related to St. Peter. There are many popes that were not worthy of trust and faith. You are right though that is the was it should be. If he were wise, there wouldn’t be the controversy.

 

[pnewton]

If he were wise, there wouldn’t be the controversy.

Your insult of the Pope is not Christian thinking, which is quite different that worldly wisdom.

Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Did the controversial Jesus reveal his lack of wisdom?

 

[Polak]

What good would civil unions do?

They’re not de facto marriages in the eyes of Pope Francis, just as I’m sure they’re not de facto marriages in the eyes of the Anglican Church, that already allows them.

The problem is, this always gets brought up in the context of gay people. If civil unions were indeed just intended for two people who are very close but not in a sexual relationship with each other and not wanting to have a family together, then yes, theoretically you could create a legal framework where two such people, who see each other as the closest person they have in this world without being in a sexual relationship or even physically intimate with them, could have some type of legal rights to each other. It then wouldn’t matter if it was a man and a woman, or two men or two women.

The fact that this idea of civil unions is supposed to be a fig leaf for the LGBT community though, clearly shows it is going to be treated as a substitute for marriage, and that isn’t right.

So I would say civil unions could do some good, if they really were what the Pope seems to be suggesting they should be, but common sense tells us they won’t be.

 

[AlbMagno]

The other day I was thinking, considering that the Church already has a brother-making ritual in its tradition, for the purpose of mutual support between men; and the Church normally defends traditions and morality regardless of their incorrect interpretation or popular praxis, then I think Pope Francis is not wrong to beought up Civil Unions as a form of Adelphopoiesis.

 

[AlbMagno]

He is not teaching anything. It was a personal interview, he was not in an official setting.