Pope Francis Calls for Reform in Liturgical Music

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rondirect said:
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Wesrock:
A lot of contemporary music is sung in keys where I can’t hit anything written as a D (sometimes C or even B! depending upon the song) or higher. It’s really discouraging.

I find that older, more traditional stand bys or, perhaps unsurprisingly, old American folk hymns (not exactly traditional) far easier to sing.

But this could probably be corrected by simply using a different key and not so much an issue with whether or not something is “contemporary.”
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As a musician, you are confusing the “key” the music is written in and the “range” of the of the notes in a hymn/song in any “key.” The key a song is written in has nothing to do with the range of the notes the composer uses in that key. The key just indicates what notes are naturally sharps or flats. Also, some keys lend themselves to a more somber or brighter sound.

And by the way, many songs and hymns are very singable by almost anyone even if the highest note is a D in any key. My alto cantors have no problem with a D; an E gets a little tougher. A D is 3 half steps above a B. No one should have an issue singing a B. “Holy God We Praise…” has been mentioned here many times. In the “key of F (one flat, a B flat),” the typical key this song is written in, goes as high as a D at the end of the verses…very singable.
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Glad to hear it. I’ll keep dropping out on those notes so my voice doesn’t crack/swing incredibly off pitch when it can’t hit the note.

Also, just got back from a neighboring parish and sang some contemporary hymns and had no trouble hitting those Ds on multiple songs. Not sure if it was shifted to a lower range or what have you, but can’t for the life of me do it on the same songs at my own parish.
 
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Wesrock said:
Glad to hear it. I’ll keep dropping out on those notes so my voice doesn’t crack/swing incredibly off pitch when it can’t hit the note.

Also, just got back from a neighboring parish and sang some contemporary hymns and had no trouble hitting those Ds on multiple songs. Not sure if it was shifted to a lower range or what have you, but can’t for the life of me do it on the same songs at my own parish.
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At least you are singing and trying, and fulfilling the desire of the Church for full participation (FCAP). On the higher notes, sometimes people have a problem if there are a number of higher notes sustained over a long phrase, others when the high note is held too long. The best case scenario is when you are singing in a comfortable range and a quick quarter note is that “D” and the next note is lower. When you know it’s coming, take a deep breath and sing “above” the note and try not to reach for it. It works.
If the other parish uses piano, more than likely the song is not transposed lower.

Do you remember the names of those songs? Care to share?
 
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Given that I spend a lot of time in Pennsylvania lately, I think the churches I attend have bigger fish to fry in their pans right now than worrying about whether the Pope or anyone else is jazzed about their liturgical music.
 
What if I told you that (I think that) Bach’s Magnificat is inferior to that of Vivaldi’s?
 
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semper_catholicus said:
They seem to pick the absolute worst songs from the 70s.
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LOL — I agree. There is very little that was written in the 20th or 21st centuries that is any good. Most of liturgical music written in the 20th and 21st centuries is horrible.

Almost most nothing written in the 20th and 21st centuries comes even close to rivaling the sacred music written by Bach, Beethoven, Handel, the two Haydn brothers, Mozart, Salieri, Schubert, etc

Why anyone would want Marty Haugen, Dan Schutte, & David_Haas when legends like Bach, Beethoven and Mozart are available is beyond me.

But then again, the only radio I listen to (besides Relevant Radio & EWTN Radio is classical music & sacred music channels on Pandora. I almost never listen to the trash that is today’s secular music.

God Bless

List of Catholic musicians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Peeps said:
Does it really lift the soul to God?

It frightens me. It’s very eerie. And it’s monotonous.

I’ve been Catholic 14 years now and have had plenty of time to learn to like it. I even bought several CDs of the it and forced myself to listen to it. Really didn’t like it, and still don’t.

I’m not trying to knock you down here–I’m just saying that we can’t make assumptions about music preferences and how music will affect people. There are lots of people who love the St. Louis Jesuits music and consider it the True Catholic Music.
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Have you ever been to a Jewish Service? They chant almost everything… that’s where we got Chant from.

It was common place until some time after Vatican II. When I was a kid in the 1980s and early 1990s my pastor used a lot of chanting (in English) himself. And the Parish always chanted the Our Father in English. My Parish used zero Latin, but we used a lot of chant.

Personally, I miss chanting the Our Father (in English) at Mass.

Personally, (while I do like Latin in the Ordinary Form) I would be THRILLED to attend a mass that was 100% chanted in English.

God Bless
 
Peeps said:
One thing I really don’t agree with at all is Catholics who say that ALL Masses everywhere should be exactly alike.
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I agree with this 100%. This exists on both sides of the argument. One side wants only Latin & Chant, while the other side wants only contemporary music.

I fail to understand why Catholic Parishes with multiple Saturday Evening/ Sunday Masses can’t assign different Liturgical/ musical styles to each mass and keep it there?

For example:
  • 5:30 PM Saturday Mass = Gospel Mass
  • 7:15 AM Sunday Mass = English full chant, acappella Mass
  • 9:15 AM contemporary mass
  • 11:15 AM organ with English & Latin hymns and chanting
    6PM Sunday Mass - another contemporary mass
This way, people at attempt to always attend the Mass they prefer, and bare different liturgical styles when they don’t attend their preferred; vs being stuck with one liturgical style for every single mass.
 
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I think it would be easier to use a variety of song genres in a Mass.
 
SeriousQuestion said:
I think it would be easier to use a variety of song genres in a Mass.
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Two different parishes I sometimes attend for evening mass does that, and it’s so weird.

There was one mass where the cantor (who’s beautiful voice is often waisted) did a beautiful rendering of Kyrie Eleison in Greek (which that parish almost never does), then moves into the “My Little Pony” version of the Gloria by Dan Schutte (if you are unfamiliar, click the link below)

www.ccwatershed.org

Dan Schutte's “Missa My Little Pony” (2nd Part)

My original article was shared 4,000 times and generated a surprising amount of hate mail.
www.ccwatershed.org www.ccwatershed.org

Then, later, after communion she sang one of the most beautiful renditions of Ave Maria I have ever hear and the most beautiful in person. It was followed by some folk song for the exit.

When composers wrote/write Liturgical music (even Dan Schutte) they typically write music for the entire mass, so the same musical theme can be used for the whole mass.

It’s unfortunate that too many music directors try to piece together many different music genres into one mass, eliminating the balance the composer attempted to bring
 
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I listened to My Little Pony and that Gloria and I never made the connection until now. 🤯
 
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Sometimes the weather/barometric pressure/sinuses can make a difference in singing ability.

I think you’re right to back off on any notes you can’t hit because you can end up with strained vocal chords trying to “belt” notes out.

I think it would be good if parishes could offer singing skills classes–hire a local voice teacher and ask him/her to give about an hour class in the techniques of singing in a head voice rather than chest voice, etc. It would really help a lot of people to actually enjoy singing, and not experience pain.

They used to teach this kind of thing in schools, but so many schools have dropped music programs at the elementary level, or turned it into “ethnic sensitivity music appreciation” where the children’ don’t actually sing, but listen to and dance to various popular genre of music.

So many of the folk songs that children once had such fun singing contain phrases, or were written by controversial composers, or have subtle put-downs, that could conceivably be the source of a lawsuit by contentious people nowadays. E.g., the nonsense song, “Old Dan Tucker” could be taken as criticism of farmers and other country folks because of the “hillbilly dialect” : “Git out the way fer ol’ Dan Tucker,’ Yer too late to stay fer supper,” etc.
 
Surely you’re not suggesting that the people in the pews sing Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart instead of hymns?

Maybe it would be a good idea–we would all have to get together at least once a week for a couple of hours to practice (and learn how to sing in German, Latin, etc. depending on the piece).

That would mean fellowship, something that Catholic churches have a hard time with. Peeps would love it! Peeps might actually make some friends doing something that she is comfortable doing–singing, playing, making music. (And probably no alcohol would be allowed, at least during the actual practice, although I’m guessing that a lot of congregation would head out to the bars afterwards to recover from the practicing!).

And it would mean employment for more musicians–the church liturgical/music director would have something to do during the week other than funerals, and the instrumentalists would have to dust off their Bach pieces and regain the techniques to be able to accompany these new congregational music pieces!

And employment for babysitter! I’m sorry, folks, I’'m OK with babies and toddlers attending Mass, but when it comes to a rehearsal to learn Bach and other classical pieces, I would not like to have wiggly toddlers and crying babies in the music room. Nope. Babysitter time.

How fun! I love it! Let’s do this!

I just watched a Dateline on TV last night that showed a choir of homeless people singing Handel’s Messiah–if they can do it, WE can do it! C’mon, Catholics!

It will be interesting to see how several thousand people can attend a choir practice once a week! So much fun! So many potential friends!
 
I’ve rarely been in a parish where we’ve had trained musicians. The rule over the last 30 years has been volunteers who strum guitars.

In the parish where I am now we did have someone who played the organ for a while but she was not an organist. She was the music teacher at the local Catholic elementary school and her field of training was voice. She translated her piano training to the organ but that did not make her a professional organist, those are as rare as hens’ teeth in this neck of the woods.

She was replaced by another volunteer who was a doctor by profession but played piano and translated that to the organ.
 
Peeps said:
Surely you’re not suggesting that the people in the pews sing Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart instead of hymns?
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LOL - Of course not!!! I’m suggesting that people listen to it with appreciation and the beauty that God has given it.

However, it would present more jobs for classically trained musicians.
 
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Peeps said:
That would mean fellowship, something that Catholic churches have a hard time with. Peeps would love it! Peeps might actually make some friends doing something that she is comfortable doing–singing, playing, making music. (
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You could do this right now with the music ministry at your local parish. It’s not a new thing.

As for “employment for more musicians”, the church needs to pay them. Most churches are on a tight budget as it is.

As for “homeless people singing the Messiah”, I would imagine they have time on their hands to engage in this sort of activity. Many Catholics are stretched to the limit schedule-wise trying to keep up with work and family.

By the way, I’m finding it kind of weird that your posts on at least 2 threads make it sound like Catholics can’t wait to get done with whatever they are doing so they can hit the local bar. I do not know where you live, but that hasn’t been my experience, and I grew up in an area where there was a bar on every block. My very Catholic parents perhaps had a beer once a month. I will be honest - you constantly bringing up that issue would make me leery about socializing with you. It sounds judgemental and like you are unable to relax with the idea that someone else might be having a beer even if you don’t want one. It also sounds like you do not understand that many of us Catholics, even those of us who enjoy an occasional drink, do not imbibe often. I like to drink sometimes and right now I have not had one in probably 6 weeks because I’m too busy.
 
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Phemie said:
I’ve rarely been in a parish where we’ve had trained musicians. The rule over the last 30 years has been volunteers who strum guitars.
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Same here. I have had the pleasure of listening to some very good, probably self-trained or “took a few lessons”, guitarists. Guitar and piano are instruments where many people can do a good job with minimal formal training. Organ not so much.

One of my local parishes just got a trained organist and it’s really a joy. Not sure where they found the person. There are colleges nearby so perhaps that was the source. I also don’t know whether she is paid or a volunteer but I definitely hang around till the last organ note is played after the Mass on Sundays.
 
This really isn’t all that complex, people. I highly doubt that the Vatican is calling for parishes to hire the London Symphony Orchestra.

I’m an intermediate musician, nowhere near professional grade, and I guarantee that classic works like Hail Holy Queen aren’t any more difficult than the cheesy OCP stuff. (I believe that Hail Holy Queen even shows up in the OCP Missal).

I promise these older hymns aren’t the musician’s equivalent to rocket science. Many of you could have hammered these out during your fifth grade piano lessons. http://www.ccwatershed.org/vatican/old/
 
Sorry- I was trying to edit my post. I, for one, welcome the occasional distraction from all of the Pennsylvania stresses. Music just happens to be my own outlet.
 
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