Pope Francis claims global economy is close to collapse and describes youth unemployment rates as an ‘atrocity’ in damning message

[frobert]

I didn’t know the pope was an economics prognosticator. And I wasn’t aware that youth unemployment was a function of the current state of the economy. Rather - it seems to be more due to the culture and values we live in. In America so many young people seem unwilling to do menial, entry level jobs that youth used to do. So we have to import illegal immigrant workers to do the jobs. And college graduates going into debt in the tens of thousands to get useless liberal arts degrees wonder why they can’t find a job. In other words, there is much more to the issue - at least in America. Maybe there would be more jobs if the government got out of the way and allowed the private sector to take off.

Ishii

You are right the government should get out of the way but not out of the way you think. I will pick on one of your grips, college loans. College loans are evil for the a vast number of students. Que bueno. Follow the money, The gov gets involved, loosens credit so students with that are not credit worthy can take loans which can not be dismissed in bankruptcy. Bankers get to loan money risk free, poor credit means nothing because the loans are guaranteed. Bankers wins. Colleges raise tuition because more students borrow more money. Students become debt serfs. What’s not to like? That’s if you are a college or banker.

 

[mikekle]

I didn’t know the pope was an economics prognosticator. And I wasn’t aware that youth unemployment was a function of the current state of the economy. Rather - it seems to be more due to the culture and values we live in. In America so many young people seem unwilling to do menial, entry level jobs that youth used to do. So we have to import illegal immigrant workers to do the jobs. And college graduates going into debt in the tens of thousands to get useless liberal arts degrees wonder why they can’t find a job. In other words, there is much more to the issue - at least in America. Maybe there would be more jobs if the government got out of the way and allowed the private sector to take off.

Ishii

Well, many young people dont like the idea of working their butts off for minimum wage, cant say I blame them, if they can find a better job, more power to them. But its not legal for these companies to bring in illegal employees to deal with this, maybe they should think about raising their pay rates? Im sorry, but I dont believe McDonalds or other such places cannot afford to pay their employees at least $10. hour…they just dont want to, its all about profit, and they want as much as possible.No amount is EVER enough, they always want MORE. lol

 

[ralfyman]

We face three predicaments, and they are amplifying each other: financial crises due to significant levels of debt, peak oil and the threat of a resource crunch (including social unrest due to lack of water, high food prices, etc.), and environmental damage coupled with global warming.

In addition, related issues are taking place, such as antibiotic resistance and increased vectors for the spread of disease, the threat of regional conflict, and social unrest due to unemployment and austerity measures.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I was deeply saddened, but not surprised, to see Pope Francis blaming everyone and everything for youth unemployment except those actually causing it.

Youth unemployment is a result of a number of things but “greed” and a “throwaway” culture are not top of the list.

At the top of the list would be: minimum wage, welfare, and an attitude of entitlement by the young, two of three warmly endorsed by our very own Catholic Church.

What saddens me most about this is that people actually believe that Pope Francis is concerned about youth unemployment, the poor, etc. when obviously he is not concerned enough even to learn economics 101 before offering his economic opinions.

 

[ProVobis]

Im sorry, but I dont believe McDonalds or other such places cannot afford to pay their employees at least $10. hour…they just dont want to, its all about profit, and they want as much as possible.No amount is EVER enough, they always want MORE. lol

Yes, but everyone is able to participate from those profits, including and especially the employees. That’s the beauty of publicly-traded corporations and dividends. Entities which are completely private are a different story but theoretically they will at some point have to compete against the highly-traded corporations as well. Except for sports teams, those rascals. .

 

[ishii]

You are right the government should get out of the way but not out of the way you think. I will pick on one of your grips, college loans. College loans are evil for the a vast number of students. Que bueno. Follow the money, The gov gets involved, loosens credit so students with that are not credit worthy can take loans which can not be dismissed in bankruptcy. Bankers get to loan money risk free, poor credit means nothing because the loans are guaranteed. Bankers wins. Colleges raise tuition because more students borrow more money. Students become debt serfs. What’s not to like? That’s if you are a college or banker.

I think for many prospective students an answer to the high tuition issue is to attend a cheaper community college for the first two years. However, there is societal pressure on high school graduates to attend a four year college. For many, the idea of attending a community college for two years first is an unfortunate compromise - a sign of low academic status or a class thing - or both. I have co-workers who attended community college for a couple of years and learned tech skills and they make more than I do with my liberal arts degree. The fact is, there are ways to learn marketable skills that will help one find a good job - that don’t involve an expensive four year degree. I would hope that young adults would think before investing tens of thousands of dollars in a for year liberal arts degree and perhaps pursue other avenues to acquire skills.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

I was deeply saddened, but not surprised, to see Pope Francis blaming everyone and everything for youth unemployment except those actually causing it.

Youth unemployment is a result of a number of things but “greed” and a “throwaway” culture are not top of the list.

At the top of the list would be: minimum wage, welfare, and an attitude of entitlement by the young, two of three warmly endorsed by our very own Catholic Church.

What saddens me most about this is that people actually believe that Pope Francis is concerned about youth unemployment, the poor, etc. when obviously he is not concerned enough even to learn economics 101 before offering his economic opinions.

I agree with everything you said above with the exception of the idea that Pope Francis is not concerned with youth unemployment. I think he is, but does not understand economics. This is not necessarily a new thing among the clergy - who seem to focus only on the goals of the Church regarding economic justice - fair wages, jobs, etc. but don’t bother to learn economics 101 on how to achieve those goals. Or more likely- like many US bishops - they are prisoners of their own left-leaning economics ideas - such as the idea that the economy is finite - if someone makes a lot of money it is due to greed and taking from others unjustly. That governments made up of elites can meddle in an economy and actually help matters (they make things worse). That taxing the rich and giving to the poor - redistributive policies are effective in helping the poor. Of course they aren’t effective - what’s effective in helping the poor is a growing economy with businesses flourishing with a minimum of regulation and taxation.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

Well, many young people dont like the idea of working their butts off for minimum wage, cant say I blame them, if they can find a better job, more power to them. But its not legal for these companies to bring in illegal employees to deal with this, maybe they should think about raising their pay rates? Im sorry, but I dont believe McDonalds or other such places cannot afford to pay their employees at least $10. hour…they just dont want to, its all about profit, and they want as much as possible.No amount is EVER enough, they always want MORE. lol

Minimum wage jobs serve an important purpose: they give people job experience, a work ethic and *hopefully motivation to learn skills so that they can compete for a better job with better pay! * You have to start somewhere. If you look at a minimum wage job as a springboard, or the first rung of a ladder - on the way to a higher paying job - then it doesn’t look so bad. Many, many years ago I worked for minimum wage at the dreaded McD’s. Starting wage was a whopping $3.35 an hour. After a few months I quit and found something a little higher paying. Two years after working at McD’s I was making $8/hr. (which back then was pretty good). The point is that these jobs are not meant to be permanent “living wage” jobs. They are meant as a starting point and, looked back from the perspective that is higher up on the economic ladder, are seen as an important first step. But you have to work hard and learn skills - that is the way you move up in our system.

Ishii

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I agree with everything you said above with the exception of the idea that Pope Francis is not concerned with youth unemployment. I think he is, but does not understand economics. This is not necessarily a new thing among the clergy - who seem to focus only on the goals of the Church regarding economic justice - fair wages, jobs, etc. but don’t bother to learn economics 101 on how to achieve those goals. Or more likely- like many US bishops - they are prisoners of their own left-leaning economics ideas - such as the idea that the economy is finite - if someone makes a lot of money it is due to greed and taking from others unjustly. That governments made up of elites can meddle in an economy and actually help matters (they make things worse). That taxing the rich and giving to the poor - redistributive policies are effective in helping the poor. Of course they aren’t effective - what’s effective in helping the poor is a growing economy with businesses flourishing with a minimum of regulation and taxation.

You are right that this is nothing new. See e.g. this tirade:

nationalreview.com/article/379954/catholics-against-capitalism-kevin-d-williamson

Pope Francis is merely reflecting that Catholic (small “t”) tradtion. What is most shocking, though, is that youth unemployment is a relatively new phenomenon and is so obviously correlated with the pathologies of government do-goodism.

While I agree with most of your points, and certainly the zero-sum model of economics is influencing this debate, it seems clear that the clergy is immune to any sort of economic argument. The suffering is real, abd it will only get worse, but I am having a very hard time believing that the concern is. The clergy is simply not up to the crisis and is more likely to contribute to it than to help resolve it.

 

[ishii]

You are right that this is nothing new. See e.g. this tirade:

nationalreview.com/article/379954/catholics-against-capitalism-kevin-d-williamson

Pope Francis is merely reflecting that Catholic (small “t”) tradtion. What is most shocking, though, is that youth unemployment is a relatively new phenomenon and is so obviously correlated with the pathologies of government do-goodism.

While I agree with most of your points, and certainly the zero-sum model of economics is influencing this debate, it seems clear that the clergy is immune to any sort of economic argument. The suffering is real, abd it will only get worse, but I am having a very hard time believing that the concern is. The clergy is simply not up to the crisis and is more likely to contribute to it than to help resolve it.

I think we need to be careful in judging the sincerity of motives. I think that many of them do genuinely think that the state, not the market, can best uplift the poor. But the state, as Kevin Williamson pointed out in the article you linked to, is ill-equipped to help the less fortunate; in fact, they make their plight worse.

“(the pope) also expects the state to determine just wages and union work rules, to administer unemployment insurance, to calculate the economic consequences of immigration, and a hundred other things that the state has no capacity for doing. Like Cardinal Rodríguez Maradiaga and others, he assumes that the state will act in the cause of justice for the poor rather than being the most ruthless and pitiless exploiter of the poor, as history, including the history of this country, very strongly suggests that it will be.
.”

Ishii

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I think we need to be careful in judging the sincerity of motives. I think that many of them do genuinely think that the state, not the market, can best uplift the poor. But the state, as Kevin Williamson pointed out in the article you linked to, is ill-equipped to help the less fortunate; in fact, they make their plight worse.

I am perfecty williing to believe that Lenin had good motives, that he sincerely wanted to transform Russia into a great and just society and uplift the peasants and workers into a wordly paradise. So I certainly do not accuse the Catholic clergy of malice.

But I do accuse them of being intellectually lazy when if comes to economics. (And obviously I am painting with a broad brush because there are exceptions.) I will defend to the death the right of the clergy to involve itself in debate on the moral issues of econoimcs not because I think they have a good track record but because I don’t belive in removing morality from economics.

But I think it’s time that they are held to account for their sloppy thinking.

“(the pope) also expects the state to determine just wages and union work rules, to administer unemployment insurance, to calculate the economic consequences of immigration, and a hundred other things that the state has no capacity for doing. Like Cardinal Rodríguez Maradiaga and others, he assumes that the state will act in the cause of justice for the poor rather than being the most ruthless and pitiless exploiter of the poor, as history, including the history of this country, very strongly suggests that it will be.
.”

This is the fatal conceipt all statists: that government will act in the best interest of all. It is not necessary that politicians be malicious for that to fail. It is only necessary that they are as human as the capitalists they seek to regulate.

 

[ProVobis]

This is the fatal conceipt all statists: that government will act in the best interest of all. It is not necessary that politicians be malicious for that to fail. It is only necessary that they are as human as the capitalists they seek to regulate.

Or in some cases, they will simply set up separate agencies, such as the Dept of Defense, even call some private, such as the Federal Reserve, and let them do the dirty work of controlling the economy. As the Chinese representative said to Paulson in the movie, “Too Big to Fail,” “sometimes the relationship between private industry and the government is not so simple.”

 

[Mark121359]

…looks more like the globe is on the brink of *moral *collapse.

Peace, Mark

 

[CrossofChrist]

I think that, in general, some people are missing the point. They think that Pope Francis is calling for a quasi-socialist economic scheme, and then claim it is either a good thing or a bad thing, that this Pope gets it or that we have another Pope ignorant about the economy.

That’s missing the point, though. Caritas in Veritate Chapter 3, especially #38 on, covers what I believe Pope Francis is getting at. The widespread mentality is either “if we only could free up the market a little bit the economy would improve dramatically” or “if the government became more involved there would be less poor people and everyone would be better off”. But both mentalities are symptomatic of a liberal mindset, if those issues are perceived as the major problem with our economy. Because the world isn’t a place where a binary market-state model can effectively serve man, since man is more than a being concerned solely with economic and political success.

The youth unemployment the Pope speaks of is symptomatic of an economy that has lost its concern for the whole man. People seek only immediate gratification because “freedom” (doing what you want) is conceived of as the end goal of man, so naturally there is going to be a problem with long-term economic growth.

It reminds me of something (page 387) I read from Ratzinger on the importance of Christianity today (albeit I’m applying the story Ratzinger uses differently). People want a booming economy, but the purpose of having a booming economy seems to be unseen; it doesn’t matter if the “boom” is from a speculative bubble that will leave us off worse in the end than if we had never had the “boom”, or if what causes the growth or sustainability is going to some questionable industries. As long as there is perceived growth, all is well.

In short, it all comes back to evangelizing society in its totality. At least that’s how I see it.

 

[Tsuwano]

I didn’t know the pope was an economics prognosticator. And I wasn’t aware that youth unemployment was a function of the current state of the economy. Rather - it seems to be more due to the culture and values we live in. In America so many young people seem unwilling to do menial, entry level jobs that youth used to do. So we have to import illegal immigrant workers to do the jobs. And college graduates going into debt in the tens of thousands to get useless liberal arts degrees wonder why they can’t find a job. In other words, there is much more to the issue - at least in America. Maybe there would be more jobs if the government got out of the way and allowed the private sector to take off.

Ishii

You seem to think the state of the economy has no influence on the the culture and values we live with, but I would disagree with this. An unjust economy will lead to the embrace of unjust values and create a culture which is unjust. I also believe that youth employment and unemployment are primary concerns of the economy and that the creation of jobs is an essential function of the economy. As you say, there is much more to the issue of the economy in America, but the Holy Father, whether he has a degree in economics or not, is correct when he says that any economy which allows a generation of young people to waste their youth in hopelessness because there are no jobs or fair wages, is unjust and needs to be readjusted. You may also be correct to say that if the government got out of the way and allowed the private sector to take off there would be more jobs, but I question what the wages of these jobs would be. Everyone had jobs when they worked as serfs, but I’m not convinced a modern day serfdom working for huge corporations at minimal wages is better than not having the government monitoring the economic situation.

 

[ishii]

You seem to think the state of the economy has no influence on the the culture and values we live with, but I would disagree with this. An unjust economy will lead to the embrace of unjust values and create a culture which is unjust. I also believe that youth employment and unemployment are primary concerns of the economy and that the creation of jobs is an essential function of the economy. As you say, there is much more to the issue of the economy in America, but the Holy Father, whether he has a degree in economics or not, is correct when he says that any economy which allows a generation of young people to waste their youth in hopelessness because there are no jobs or fair wages, is unjust and needs to be readjusted. You may also be correct to say that if the government got out of the way and allowed the private sector to take off there would be more jobs, but I question what the wages of these jobs would be. Everyone had jobs when they worked as serfs, but I’m not convinced a modern day serfdom working for huge corporations at minimal wages is better than not having the government monitoring the economic situation.

You’ve built a strawman, Tsuwano. No one is suggesting that working for low wages like serfs is the ideal. Furthermore, it is the right values which help shape one’s ability to thrive in a free market economy, not the other way around. The values which the entitlement/victim mentality have instilled in America are the opposite of the hard-working, strong work ethic values that have helped people to be successful. Part of the problem is that the Holy Father speaks generally with these sound bites, then ideologues in America interpret the comments as if they were intended as an indictment of laissez faire economics. And let me make one thing clear: when I say “get the government out of the way” I don’t mean “no regulation or taxation” but I do mean get rid of excessive regulations and exorbitantly high tax rates and inconsistent policies toward business in general. Businesses need consistency in government policy in order to plan and invest. One of the worst things government can do is keep changing policy or be unpredictable. It is not the economy which allows a generation of youth to waste their youth in hopelessness but rather the wrong values being taught.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

I think that, in general, some people are missing the point. They think that Pope Francis is calling for a quasi-socialist economic scheme, and then claim it is either a good thing or a bad thing, that this Pope gets it or that we have another Pope ignorant about the economy.

That’s missing the point, though. Caritas in Veritate Chapter 3, especially #38 on, covers what I believe Pope Francis is getting at. The widespread mentality is either “if we only could free up the market a little bit the economy would improve dramatically” or “if the government became more involved there would be less poor people and everyone would be better off”. But both mentalities are symptomatic of a liberal mindset, if those issues are perceived as the major problem with our economy. Because the world isn’t a place where a binary market-state model can effectively serve man, since man is more than a being concerned solely with economic and political success.

The youth unemployment the Pope speaks of is symptomatic of an economy that has lost its concern for the whole man. People seek only immediate gratification because “freedom” (doing what you want) is conceived of as the end goal of man, so naturally there is going to be a problem with long-term economic growth.

It reminds me of something (page 387) I read from Ratzinger on the importance of Christianity today (albeit I’m applying the story Ratzinger uses differently). People want a booming economy, but the purpose of having a booming economy seems to be unseen; it doesn’t matter if the “boom” is from a speculative bubble that will leave us off worse in the end than if we had never had the “boom”, or if what causes the growth or sustainability is going to some questionable industries. As long as there is perceived growth, all is well.

In short, it all comes back to evangelizing society in its totality. At least that’s how I see it.

I think you make some good points. What is the point of having a booming economy if rampant consumerism/materialism prevail as the dominant values? It can’t be an end in itself. A booming economy would ideally put more money in people’s pockets so that they can do more good with it - give to charity, etc. But make no mistake - a strong expanding economy is the best for providing jobs and providing the poor with opportunities to move up. Much better than a government check. My problem is with the Catholic clergy in America (and I suspect the Pope as well) who seem to be convinced that the liberal statist economy is best, and the free market is suspect. They don’t get economics and yet they act as if they no what they are talking about.

Ishii

 

[faithsmind]

Our criminal US central bank, the Federal Reserve, was established by a group of elite bankers in 1917, the year of the final apparition of Our Lady of Fatima. Coincidence? I think not.

True wealth is in people: Not in oil. Not in cash. Not in guns. And no, not even in the occasional collision of stars (Gold). True wealth is in people. Keep that in mind as we buckle our seat belts and watch this false system collapse. Remember, every nation’s currency in the world is fiat. Not a good thing… The pope is right; and it don’t take no stinkin badge in Econ 101 to see the truth of this chaos that is starting to unravel as we speak. China’s housing market, anyone? India? Oil pipeline in Iraq overtaken by Isis? Gah! Yeah, buy gold, but invest in children and in your own individual talents that set you apart from others. The Fed will likely try to impose a world currency once the dollar collapses. I personally see this playing into Revelations. We’ve got to keep our wits and stay true to our eternal values, soldiers.

 

[ProVobis]

Our criminal US central bank, the Federal Reserve, was established by a group of elite bankers in 1917, the year of the final apparition of Our Lady of Fatima. Coincidence? I think not.

True wealth is in people: Not in oil. Not in cash. Not in guns. And no, not even in the occasional collision of stars (Gold). True wealth is in people. Keep that in mind as we buckle our seat belts and watch this false system collapse. Remember, every nation’s currency in the world is fiat. Not a good thing… The pope is right; and it don’t take no stinkin badge in Econ 101 to see the truth of this chaos that is starting to unravel as we speak. China’s housing market, anyone? India? Oil pipeline in Iraq overtaken by Isis? Gah! Yeah, buy gold, but invest in children and in your own individual talents that set you apart from others. The Fed will likely try to impose a world currency once the dollar collapses. I personally see this playing into Revelations. We’ve got to keep our wits and stay true to our eternal values, soldiers.

I agree, but for the record the Federal Reserve Act was passed in 1913, the same year as the Income Tax. IMO, though, it’s close enough to make your point. The Fed is by all accounts unconstitutional, but it hasn’t been seriously challenged. Most feel it’s good that someone other than the market controls interest rates, margins, and let’s an infinite amount of money to be -]counterfeited/-] printed. Seems like morally this is very wrong.

 

[Tsuwano]

You’ve built a strawman, Tsuwano. No one is suggesting that working for low wages like serfs is the ideal. Furthermore, it is the right values which help shape one’s ability to thrive in a free market economy, not the other way around. The values which the entitlement/victim mentality have instilled in America are the opposite of the hard-working, strong work ethic values that have helped people to be successful. Part of the problem is that the Holy Father speaks generally with these sound bites, then ideologues in America interpret the comments as if they were intended as an indictment of laissez faire economics. And let me make one thing clear: when I say “get the government out of the way” I don’t mean “no regulation or taxation” but I do mean get rid of excessive regulations and exorbitantly high tax rates and inconsistent policies toward business in general. Businesses need consistency in government policy in order to plan and invest. One of the worst things government can do is keep changing policy or be unpredictable. It is not the economy which allows a generation of youth to waste their youth in hopelessness but rather the wrong values being taught.

Ishii

I’m gratified to know that we can agree on a few things. First of all, I’m pleased to know that no one thinks that serfdom is an ideal economic system. I’m also glad to know that you agree that some government regulation is both desirable and necessary in our economic system. I agree that excessive regulation and inconsistent policies can hamper business and I agree that consistency in government policy is necessary. I believe that business and government can work together to make the economy not only more just, but also more profitable for everyone. But again, if you think that the economic system does not influence culture and the values we live by in society, then I think you are mistaken. One need only consider the Great Depression as an example of economics influencing both the culture and the values of society at that time. Many of the folks who found themselves floundering through the economic woes of the time were men and women who celebrated and practiced the values of hard work and thrift before they were made paupers by the fallen economy, so it is difficult to say their lack of fine values or their sense of entitlement left them unable to find success in a market economy. I tend to think this accusation often used against the unemployed or those who seek aid from the government, that they have a sense of entitlement or that they are too lazy to do the menial jobs that immigrants often accept, is a right wing canard designed to muddy the political waters and make us think the fault lies with individuals and not with systems. True, some people may have a victim mentality or a sense of entitlement, but I doubt it extends to every young person who seeks work and cannot find it or to every individual receiving aid from the government. I believe the Holy Father’s words about the unjust economies of our time is indeed meant as an indictment of laissez faire economics and we should take him at his word. I would hope every Christian would indict laissez faire economics for the unequal society it leads to and the injustice it engenders. A government which practices laissez faire economics is unconcerned for the manipulation of the economy by powerful interests and leaves the most vulnerable in society at the mercy of business interests which, at least historically, have often been unscrupulous and intent on advancing its own narrow interests to the detriment of society at large and the poor in particular. So, while we do agree on some things, I am most certainly not enamored of laissez faire economics and I do not believe the poor and those unable to find work have only an “entitlement / victim mentality” to blame. I also believe the Holy Father is more aware of these things than many American Catholics like to give him credit for. Indeed, his awareness of the injustice of the American economic system and those like it around the world, is making many American Catholics squirm. Personally, I think that is a good thing.