Pope Francis compares arguments for transgender rights to nuclear arms race

[triumphguy]

So…what is he saying here?

He was very kind to the transgender man he invited to visit the Vatican. This pope has such a good heart.

Says the Spanish daily, Hoy:
Lejarraga wrote to the pope last year, saying he had been “marginalized” by church officials in the city of Plasencia in the Estremadura region. A practicing Catholic, he said local clergy had rebuffed him and said one parish priest had called him “the devil’s daughter.”
It was then Lejarraga reportedly wrote to Francis, hoping he could explain to the pope transgender issues and even possibly receive a papal blessing.
“After hearing him on many occasions, I felt that he would listen to me,” Lejarraga told Hoy.

Hoy reported Francis phoned Lejarraga twice in December, and during the second phone call, invited him to come visit at the Vatican. A date was arranged for the meeting.
According to Hoy, Francis told Lejarraga in an initial phone call that God loves all his children “as they are.” He went on: “You are a son of God and the Church loves you and accepts you as you are.”*
The message of hope reportedly bowled over Lejarraga. He was even more surprised when Francis invited him to come to the Vatican for a personal meeting and offered to pay for it.

You can love and accept a person and dislike an agenda.

There is a politicized gender agenda which is different in kind from the struggles of real people with real medical/biological gender identity issues.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

I understand the consternation this causes with those of you who are hoping the Pope is moving towards major doctrinal and policy changes, but if so, I’m afraid you are not listening carefully to what he says. I have no doubt he was loving and kind to the transgender person that wanted to meet with him. I think the Pope would also be very kind to someone who had elective cosmetic plastic surgery. Both surgeries were done because of deep inner pain and fear of rejection or a desire to reflect physically how they feel emotionally. I have a family member who has had a lot of plastic surgery. Like many women, she values herself based on her appearance and has very low self-esteem. I wish she could love herself as much as we love her. I wish she could see herself as we see her. I can understand the Pope’s frustration when he sees a beautiful creation, in the image of God, that the individual cannot recognize. Both the transgender person, and my relative, are like the Mona Lisa. And their surgeries are as if one spray painted over it.

 

[friardchips]

I understand the consternation this causes with those of you who are hoping the Pope is moving towards major doctrinal and policy changes, but if so, I’m afraid you are not listening carefully to what he says. I have no doubt he was loving and kind to the transgender person that wanted to meet with him. I think the Pope would also be very kind to someone who had elective cosmetic plastic surgery. Both surgeries were done because of deep inner pain and fear of rejection or a desire to reflect physically how they feel emotionally. I have a family member who has had a lot of plastic surgery. Like many women, she values herself based on her appearance and has very low self-esteem. I wish she could love herself as much as we love her. I wish she could see herself as we see her. I can understand the Pope’s frustration when he sees a beautiful creation, in the image of God, that the individual cannot recognize. Both the transgender person, and my relative, are like the Mona Lisa. And their surgeries are as if one spray painted over it.

I really believe this is an amazing post.

 

[friardchips]

Count me out of the “we.”

This is how abortion was sold. Not by WE but a few.

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/abortion/articles-and-addresses/an-ex-abortionist-speaks/

Jane Roe in Roe v Wade never had an abortion after it was legalized not by we, but a small group of judges.

And how did Transgender go from being a disorder to not a disorder in 2013? We? No.

ncregister.com/daily-news/psychiatrys-new-normal-transgendered-persons

“Lobbying” for a diagnosis change is not sound or scientific. WE were not consulted or involved.

Ed

Hi! I forgot to say thanks for the links! The abortion link I have saved to my desktop and am going to take my time reading. I can’t remember whether the book itself was in English, I know it was originally written in polish.

 

[edwest2]

Hi! I forgot to say thanks for the links! The abortion link I have saved to my desktop and am going to take my time reading. I can’t remember whether the book itself was in English, I know it was originally written in polish.

You’re welcome.

Ed

 

[FreciaMarie]

I really believe this is an amazing post.

I do, too.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

Wow…thanks. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[LupusCatholicus]

Yes, exactly, “as they are”, before alterations.

I am not sure this is the line of thought that the Holy Father is taking. Keep in mind, the man being discussed is a transgender man, meaning he was born female and then transitioned to male. I have no reason to doubt that the trans man the article is quoting is in any way disreputable or dishonest, he seems to be sincere and genuine in his intentions to wanting to be loved and accepted. I am going to take him at his word and believe the words he has to reported the Holy Father to have said to him over the phone to be accurate until I am shown otherwise.

So, if the Pope did indeed say what he is reported to have said, the question is this: if the Holy Father was against the man transitioning, if he meant to use the phrase “as you are” as referring to the original female gender that the transgender was born with, then why would he refer to him as a Son of God and not a Daughter of God?

If the Holy Father did indeed say this, and this indeed seems to be in line with his mandate of mercy and compassion, then this would at least seem to indicate that he accepts and respects this man’s decision in regards to his gender (though he may not personally agree with the idea of sex change operations). Also, if the Holy Father has said this man to be a Son of God and not a Daughter and that the Church accepts him as he is, that is, as a man, would this not also imply theologically that if the Church accepts this man as her Son, then likewise, so does God?

I find it interesting that everyone here paid attention to the second half of the quote and not the first. I find the Pope’s choice of language to be quite telling, and I for one applaud him for his respect and sensitivity to this man’s situation and life.

Before any of you respond with “the Church teaches” this or that, please keep in mind that there is no official teaching on Transgender people from the Magisterium: individual Bishops, theologians or Curia members may have given their theological opinion in the past, but thus far there has been no teaching on this issue from the Catholic Magisterium as a whole, either by a Pope pastorally/ex cathedra or the Bishops in Council/Synod with the Pope.This issue still has to be worked out by the Magisterium proper, so please be kind/charitable in your responses.

 

[friardchips]

I am not sure this is the line of thought that the Holy Father is taking. Keep in mind, the man being discussed is a transgender man, meaning he was born female and then transitioned to male. I have no reason to doubt that the trans man the article is quoting is in any way disreputable or dishonest, he seems to be sincere and genuine in his intentions to wanting to be loved and accepted. I am going to take him at his word and believe the words he has to reported the Holy Father to have said to him over the phone to be accurate until I am shown otherwise.

So, if the Pope did indeed say what he is reported to have said, the question is this: if the Holy Father was against the man transitioning, if he meant to use the phrase “as you are” as referring to the original female gender that the transgender was born with, then why would he refer to him as a Son of God and not a Daughter of God?

If the Holy Father did indeed say this, and this indeed seems to be in line with his mandate of mercy and compassion, then this would at least seem to indicate that he accepts and respects this man’s decision in regards to his gender (though he may not personally agree with the idea of sex change operations). Also, if the Holy Father has said this man to be a Son of God and not a Daughter and that the Church accepts him as he is, that is, as a man, would this not also imply theologically that if the Church accepts this man as her Son, then likewise, so does God?

I find it interesting that everyone here paid attention to the second half of the quote and not the first. I find the Pope’s choice of language to be quite telling, and I for one applaud him for his respect and sensitivity to this man’s situation and life.

Before any of you respond with “the Church teaches” this or that, please keep in mind that there is no official teaching on Transgender people from the Magisterium: individual Bishops, theologians or Curia members may have given their theological opinion in the past, but thus far there has been no teaching on this issue from the Catholic Magisterium as a whole, either by a Pope pastorally/ex cathedra or the Bishops in Council/Synod with the Pope.This issue still has to be worked out by the Magisterium proper, so please be kind/charitable in your responses.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting insensitivity is the key and it is interesting that he apparently said “son of God”. I think the question here is though, did he say “son of God” or is this a misquote? I would imagine he would say “child of God”.

What I meant by the bit you quoted, was that each person is loved by God before any alteration, and simply that. We are all children of God. If we all knew how much God loved us we wouldn’t alter our natural states because we’d have the grace to know we didn’t have to. But I feel quite sad for people who have these questions in life to battle with.

 

[OraLabora]

Mutilating your own body is not consistent with Church teaching.

Ed

I’m not suggesting otherwise.

I’m saying God loves us all the time. He never tires of giving us His forgiveness if we ask for it, even someone who mutilated him/herself.

There are no sins that He can’t forgive, if we ask. That’s what I meant by “as-is, where is”. No matter one’s state in life, no matter how broken one is, He is there for us.

Odd as it may seem, Christ did also come to redeem homosexuals, the transgendered, criminals, addicts, etc.

 

[edwest2]

I’m not suggesting otherwise.

I’m saying God loves us all the time. He never tires of giving us His forgiveness if we ask for it, even someone who mutilated him/herself.

There are no sins that He can’t forgive, if we ask. That’s what I meant by “as-is, where is”. No matter one’s state in life, no matter how broken one is, He is there for us.

Odd as it may seem, Christ did also come to redeem homosexuals, the transgendered, criminals, addicts, etc.

Yes and yes. What can lay Catholics, who are also called to spread the Gospel, to do about the almost constant call for the ‘right’ of transgender people to engage in operations that change their physical bodies?

Ed

 

[marymary1975]

I am not sure this is the line of thought that the Holy Father is taking. Keep in mind, the man being discussed is a transgender man, meaning he was born female and then transitioned to male. I have no reason to doubt that the trans man the article is quoting is in any way disreputable or dishonest, he seems to be sincere and genuine in his intentions to wanting to be loved and accepted. I am going to take him at his word and believe the words he has to reported the Holy Father to have said to him over the phone to be accurate until I am shown otherwise.

So, if the Pope did indeed say what he is reported to have said, the question is this: if the Holy Father was against the man transitioning, if he meant to use the phrase “as you are” as referring to the original female gender that the transgender was born with, then why would he refer to him as a Son of God and not a Daughter of God?

If the Holy Father did indeed say this, and this indeed seems to be in line with his mandate of mercy and compassion, then this would at least seem to indicate that he accepts and respects this man’s decision in regards to his gender (though he may not personally agree with the idea of sex change operations). Also, if the Holy Father has said this man to be a Son of God and not a Daughter and that the Church accepts him as he is, that is, as a man, would this not also imply theologically that if the Church accepts this man as her Son, then likewise, so does God?

I find it interesting that everyone here paid attention to the second half of the quote and not the first. I find the Pope’s choice of language to be quite telling, and I for one applaud him for his respect and sensitivity to this man’s situation and life.

Before any of you respond with “the Church teaches” this or that, please keep in mind that there is no official teaching on Transgender people from the Magisterium: individual Bishops, theologians or Curia members may have given their theological opinion in the past, but thus far there has been no teaching on this issue from the Catholic Magisterium as a whole, either by a Pope pastorally/ex cathedra or the Bishops in Council/Synod with the Pope.This issue still has to be worked out by the Magisterium proper, so please be kind/charitable in your responses.

First with regard to the last paragraph I hear continuously that there is no teaching of the church on this matter. I tend to disagree for the single reason that there was indeed an official statement from Pope Benedict on this matter and it is that - in a nutshell- the sex you are born with remains for the rest of your life. Sex change operations do not change your sex. People tend to look for the cat’s fifth leg on this and on this looking for the fifth leg they end up with the theory that there is no official teaching. However Pope Benedict was pretty clear, if you are born unequivocally XX with female genitalia no matter what you do you will remain a woman, same vice versa.

On the other hand, the fact that the pope received someone and mentioned to that person that is a child of God doesn’t have anything to do with approving sinful actions. We are all children of God and he lives us all despite our sins. Because God live us is the reason why we are all called to change our lives and repent. Have you thought that what the pope actually meant when he spoke with this person was that God lives you hence you need to repent and change your life to dedicate it to God and that it was call to stop sining. Also your point that the Pope used the phrase son of God denotes acceptance if this person’s decision I think is erroneous most likely because what you are reading is a translation from another language. Chances are that the wording Son of God is a translation that the writer of the article did on the thinking that this person is a male. The Pope usually speaks Italian or shapnish and most likely this report originally was in Italian. Most likely the Italian word used was figlio and bear in mind that both in Italian and Spanish the neutral pronoun by default is the male pronoun. As all words in both Spanish and Italian are gendered and there is no such thing as it or children, child etc…everything has a gender, when you use a neutral pronoun you are going to use the male. The bible itself refers to both men and women as figlios so chances are that the pope is saying that this person is a figlio of God which in no way denotes approval of the transgender condition instead means you are as the bible say a figlio, a person that God loves. Based on that odds are that your theory is off because the Son comes from a translator.

Finally let’s remember that Pope John Paul II also met with Ali Agca. What did he tell Ali Agca? Pretty much the same Pope Francis told this person…that God loved him and he forgave him… He also was very welcoming and good to Ali Agca. Does that mean that JPII approved going out on the street and killing people? Did he implies by doing that that he should go back and kill some more people? Not at all. He tried to showed him that God loved him despite his sins and that because God loved him so much Ali should stop sinning repent and convert. It was never an approval of sinful acts. Same goes for Pope Francis. Love the sinner but hate the sin.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

independent.co.uk/news/people/pope-francis-compares-arguments-for-transgender-rights-to-nuclear-arms-race-10061223.html

IOW the Pope is Catholic!!

I knew that my transgender friends are the bomb.

More seriously gender theory is the idea that gender is a social construct and not innate, that the cause of different behaviors for men and women is being taught to behave that way. These people are diametrically opposed to transgender people as the existence of transgender people serves to reify that there is in fact innate psychological gender that isn’t malleable.

 

[marymary1975]

I knew that my transgender friends are the bomb.

More seriously gender theory is the idea that gender is a social construct and not innate, that the cause of different behaviors for men and women is being taught to behave that way. These people are diametrically opposed to transgender people as the existence of transgender people serves to reify that there is in fact innate psychological gender that isn’t malleable.

Yes but the gender theory also says that gender is not attached to biological sex, instead gender is in your brain so the idea that gender is in your brain or is psychological is part of the gender theory.

 

[edwest2]

"VATICAN CITY (Catholic Online) - As Christians celebrated the Feast of the Holy Family in Poland after Christmas, their parish priests read them a letter signed by all of the Catholic Bishops of the Nation entitled The Dangers Stemming From Gender Ideology. It is strong, clear and directive. The letter has been translated into English and can be read here rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/bishops-attack-dangerous-gender.html
Here are some excerpts:

"The gender ideology (movement) is the product of many decades of ideological and cultural changes that are deeply rooted in Marxism and neo-Marxism endorsed by some feminist movements and the sexual revolution. This ideology promotes principles that are totally contrary to reality and an integral understanding of human nature.

"It maintains that biological sex is not socially significant and that cultural sex which humans can freely develop and determine irrespective of biological conditions is most important. According to this ideology, humans can freely determine whether they want to be men or women and freely choose their sexual orientation. This voluntary self-determination, not necessarily life-long, is to make the society accept the right to set up new types of families, for instance, families built on homosexual relations.

“The danger of gender ideology lies in its very destructive character both for men, people contacts and social life as a whole. Humans unsure of their sexual identity are not capable of discovering and fulfilling tasks that they face in their marital, family social and professional lives. Attempts to form different types of relations de facto seriously weaken marriage as a community created by a man and a woman and the family built on marriage.”

Ed

 

[friardchips]

First with regard to the last paragraph I hear continuously that there is no teaching of the church on this matter. I tend to disagree for the single reason that there was indeed an official statement from Pope Benedict on this matter and it is that - in a nutshell- the sex you are born with remains for the rest of your life. Sex change operations do not change your sex. People tend to look for the cat’s fifth leg on this and on this looking for the fifth leg they end up with the theory that there is no official teaching. However Pope Benedict was pretty clear, if you are born unequivocally XX with female genitalia no matter what you do you will remain a woman, same vice versa.

On the other hand, the fact that the pope received someone and mentioned to that person that is a child of God doesn’t have anything to do with approving sinful actions. We are all children of God and he lives us all despite our sins. Because God live us is the reason why we are all called to change our lives and repent. Have you thought that what the pope actually meant when he spoke with this person was that God lives you hence you need to repent and change your life to dedicate it to God and that it was call to stop sining. Also your point that the Pope used the phrase son of God denotes acceptance if this person’s decision I think is erroneous most likely because what you are reading is a translation from another language. Chances are that the wording Son of God is a translation that the writer of the article did on the thinking that this person is a male. The Pope usually speaks Italian or shapnish and most likely this report originally was in Italian. Most likely the Italian word used was figlio and bear in mind that both in Italian and Spanish the neutral pronoun by default is the male pronoun. As all words in both Spanish and Italian are gendered and there is no such thing as it or children, child etc…everything has a gender, when you use a neutral pronoun you are going to use the male. The bible itself refers to both men and women as figlios so chances are that the pope is saying that this person is a figlio of God which in no way denotes approval of the transgender condition instead means you are as the bible say a figlio, a person that God loves. Based on that odds are that your theory is off because the Son comes from a translator.

Finally let’s remember that Pope John Paul II also met with Ali Agca. What did he tell Ali Agca? Pretty much the same Pope Francis told this person…that God loved him and he forgave him… He also was very welcoming and good to Ali Agca. Does that mean that JPII approved going out on the street and killing people? Did he implies by doing that that he should go back and kill some more people? Not at all. He tried to showed him that God loved him despite his sins and that because God loved him so much Ali should stop sinning repent and convert. It was never an approval of sinful acts. Same goes for Pope Francis. Love the sinner but hate the sin.

I think this is a very good post.

Btw…seeing as your English is already good you’d no doubt welcome some correction, ‘love’, not ‘live’. . Love = I love life, or God loves His children etc…; Live = I live my life this way, or, I live to my principles etc…

 

[friardchips]

"VATICAN CITY (Catholic Online) - As Christians celebrated the Feast of the Holy Family in Poland after Christmas, their parish priests read them a letter signed by all of the Catholic Bishops of the Nation entitled The Dangers Stemming From Gender Ideology. It is strong, clear and directive. The letter has been translated into English and can be read here rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/bishops-attack-dangerous-gender.html
Here are some excerpts:

"The gender ideology (movement) is the product of many decades of ideological and cultural changes that are deeply rooted in Marxism and neo-Marxism endorsed by some feminist movements and the sexual revolution. This ideology promotes principles that are totally contrary to reality and an integral understanding of human nature.

"It maintains that biological sex is not socially significant and that cultural sex which humans can freely develop and determine irrespective of biological conditions is most important. According to this ideology, humans can freely determine whether they want to be men or women and freely choose their sexual orientation. This voluntary self-determination, not necessarily life-long, is to make the society accept the right to set up new types of families, for instance, families built on homosexual relations.

“The danger of gender ideology lies in its very destructive character both for men, people contacts and social life as a whole. Humans unsure of their sexual identity are not capable of discovering and fulfilling tasks that they face in their marital, family social and professional lives. Attempts to form different types of relations de facto seriously weaken marriage as a community created by a man and a woman and the family built on marriage.”

Ed

This all makes sense. True, true, true.

Word to the wise: avoid rorate-caeli - a breeding ground for heretics.

 

[edwest2]

This all makes sense. True, true, true.

Word to the wise: avoid rorate-caeli - a breeding ground for heretics.

A breeding ground for heretics? Has anyone from the Church made any statements about it?

Best,
Ed

 

[friardchips]

A breeding ground for heretics? Has anyone from the Church made any statements about it?

Best,
Ed

Holy and pious people in the Church, yes. And humble.

I don’t wish to say anymore.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Yes but the gender theory also says that gender is not attached to biological sex, instead gender is in your brain so the idea that gender is in your brain or is psychological is part of the gender theory.

Gender theory says that there aren’t real differences between men and women, that two mothers is just as good as a mother and a father ceteris paribus, transgender people don’t claim that, transgender people claim that gender is innate, immutable and trying to force a woman to be a man or vice versa is like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole, it’ll work badly at best. Transgender people functionally reify the duality and immutability of gender. Also, to quote Peter Kreeft

The first reason would be a reaction against what is wrongly seen as monosexual soul-stereotyping. A wholly male soul, whatever maleness means, or a wholly female soul, sounds unreal and oversimplified. But that is not what sexual souls implies. Rather, in every soul there is—to use Jungian terms—anima and animus, femaleness and maleness; just as in the body, one predominates but the other is also present. If the dominant sex of soul is not the same as that of the body, we have a sexual misfit, a candidate for a sex change operation of body or of soul, earthly or Heavenly. Perhaps Heaven supplies such changes just as it supplies all other needed forms of healing. In any case, the resurrection body perfectly expresses its soul, and since souls are innately sexual, that body will perfectly express its soul’s true sexual identity.

peterkreeft.com/topics/sex-in-heaven.htm

"VATICAN CITY (Catholic Online) - As Christians celebrated the Feast of the Holy Family in Poland after Christmas, their parish priests read them a letter signed by all of the Catholic Bishops of the Nation entitled The Dangers Stemming From Gender Ideology. It is strong, clear and directive. The letter has been translated into English and can be read here rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/bishops-attack-dangerous-gender.html
Here are some excerpts:

"The gender ideology (movement) is the product of many decades of ideological and cultural changes that are deeply rooted in Marxism and neo-Marxism endorsed by some feminist movements and the sexual revolution. This ideology promotes principles that are totally contrary to reality and an integral understanding of human nature.

"It maintains that biological sex is not socially significant and that cultural sex which humans can freely develop and determine irrespective of biological conditions is most important. According to this ideology, humans can freely determine whether they want to be men or women and freely choose their sexual orientation. This voluntary self-determination, not necessarily life-long, is to make the society accept the right to set up new types of families, for instance, families built on homosexual relations.

“The danger of gender ideology lies in its very destructive character both for men, people contacts and social life as a whole. Humans unsure of their sexual identity are not capable of discovering and fulfilling tasks that they face in their marital, family social and professional lives. Attempts to form different types of relations de facto seriously weaken marriage as a community created by a man and a woman and the family built on marriage.”

Ed

Yeah, definitely a condemnation of what I had mentioned, not actually transgender people.

I think this is a very good post.

Btw…seeing as your English is already good you’d no doubt welcome some correction, ‘love’, not ‘live’. . Love = I love life, or God loves His children etc…; Live = I live my life this way, or, I live to my principles etc…

On the one hand the letter i is next to the letter o so it could be a typo, but it did happen repeatedly so I don’t know.

This all makes sense. True, true, true.

Word to the wise: avoid rorate-caeli - a breeding ground for heretics.

Beware, claiming that conservative heretics are heretics can get you into trouble on this forum.