Pope Francis denounces ‘trickle-down’ economic theories in critique of inequality

[irishpatrick]

Sadly, so many people, even Catholics, are trying to use the Pope’s words to support their own earthly agendas.

It seems lost on many that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that his focus seems tightly focused on the salvation of souls. Get beyond the more sensational comments, the ones that seem to draw so much attention, and you will see the Pope speaks much about evangelizing, and Divine Mercy, and helping the poor.

It is important for us to recall that helping the poor is good for our souls–it pulls us away from our attachments to the world, and helps us to see things through a more humble light.

I recall a story in which a very poor older European woman came to the USA to take a tour of the states. The trip was paid for through money from others. At the end of the trip she was asked what she thought, she stated that she thought the USA was amazing, but that she felt sorry for the people living there. She was asked why she felt sorry for citizens in the USA, and she said that she could not see how anyone in the USA manages to hold onto real faith when they have so much wealth, and so much to pull them away from God.

The Pope may not like trickle down economics, yet his more important core message is that we must stop worshipping money. The immoral (near Sodom-like) actions we see reported on Black Friday, tells us all we need to know–the culture in the USA has placed created things, and money, above the Creator.

Christians also seem to forget that we are in a constant spiritual battle–a battle for souls that remains invisible, and unknown, to most people. This life is not our final destination, yet many people behave as if it is…sadly. The Pope seems determined to open our eyes to the spiritual battle that continues all around us–one in which we can easily fall victim to if we do not pray and attach ourselves to Christ. We are living in a time in which good is called bad, and bad is called good–and those who think bad remains bad are often made to feel horrible for their views.

Trickle down economics can work, if it is used by a moral and Godly people–perhaps the Pope realizes that the world has a problem today producing a moral and Godly people.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Interesting reply to a comment on this by John C. Wright, a Catholic science fiction author and political conservative, on his blog:

My reaction is one of amazement that the press is so clueless that when the Vicar of Christ repeats Christ’s teachings that all Christians have known and repeated for the past twenty centuries, the press reacts with surprise and odd triumph.

Pope Francis is saying the same things said by Pope Benedict XVI and Pope John-Paul and all their predecessors back to St Peter, who passed along what Christ said before him, and Christ himself was repeating what the Prophets said before Him.

My other reaction is to caution you to read the original sources. I used to be a newspaperman. Take it from me, that the press is a flattering viper, and will only tell its customers the news the customers want to hear. In honest times, the people want honest news; in times like ours, they want slant and spin and lies, and the press provides.

Here is the original source: vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html

Let us look at the first quote in context, the reference to a new tyranny. These are the exact words:

While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules. Debt and the accumulation of interest also make it difficult for countries to realize the potential of their own economies and keep citizens from enjoying their real purchasing power. To all this we can add widespread corruption and self-serving tax evasion, which have taken on worldwide dimensions. The thirst for power and possessions knows no limits. In this system, which tends to devour everything which stands in the way of increased profits, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a deified market, which become the only rule.

This passage is damning, perhaps, to Libertarians, but I do not count myself among their number. The gap between rich and poor in America grows in those cities ruled by Democrats and shrinks in those cities ruled by Republicans. Since the emergence of Crony Capitalism and Mussolini-style government ownership of major corporations (the Auto Industry, the Student Loan Industry, the Medical Insurance Industry) under Obama tends to wipe out the middle class, the very policies that a political conservative like myself would most vocally support would, by no coincidence, minimize or eliminate the evils of which the Holy Father in that passage complains.

The Holy Father opens the letter with this:

The great danger in today’s world, pervaded as it is by consumerism, is the desolation and anguish born of a complacent yet covetous heart, the feverish pursuit of frivolous pleasures, and a blunted conscience. Whenever our interior life becomes caught up in its own interests and concerns, there is no longer room for others, no place for the poor. God’s voice is no longer heard, the quiet joy of his love is no longer felt, and the desire to do good fades. This is a very real danger for believers too. Many fall prey to it, and end up resentful, angry and listless. That is no way to live a dignified and fulfilled life; it is not God’s will for us, nor is it the life in the Spirit which has its source in the heart of the risen Christ.

Complacent yet covetous heart. The feverish pursuit of frivolous pleasures. A blunted conscience. Of whom does that remind us? (1) Chik-Fil-A whose closes up shop on Sunday out of respect for the Sabbath, or (2) the people to whom this ad is aimed, who have demanded that the law force Catholic institutions to pay for their contraception?



scifiwright.com/2013/11/saving-science-fiction-from-strong-female-characters-part-5/#comments

 

[Bill1940]

Thank you, Arizona Mike. You have put the matter clearly and in the right perspective. The Holy Father is talking about the sin of Materialism, the idolatrous worship of money. Materialism includes Objectivist Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Corporatism, Collectivism, and all the variations too numerous to mention. The Church advocates the Principle of Subsidiarity in recognition of the danger of Central Planning to become tyrannical. The errors of the Twentieth Century are hard to expunge. It would be an interesting study to determine whether the economic philosophy of our current political trending resembles more that of Mussolini or of Lenin. There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The theme of “money worship” seems to be a cliche that few can resist, even our pope.

Is our Pope Francis teaching us that atheism and homosexuality are ok but shopping for a sale is sin?

I recall a story in which a very poor older European woman came to the USA to take a tour of the states. The trip was paid for through money from others. At the end of the trip she was asked what she thought, she stated that she thought the USA was amazing, but that she felt sorry for the people living there. She was asked why she felt sorry for citizens in the USA, and she said that she could not see how anyone in the USA manages to hold onto real faith when they have so much wealth, and so much to pull them away from God.

The Pope may not like trickle down economics, yet his more important core message is that we must stop worshipping money. The immoral (near Sodom-like) actions we see reported on Black Friday, tells us all we need to know–the culture in the USA has placed created things, and money, above the Creator.

Here is the thing: If the storied woman above had traveled from Egypt to Europe today or from Ireland to England in the 1700s or from France to Rome in the 2nd century the reaction would be the same.

The fundamental callenge of mondernity is not “worship of money” but the conquest of poverty. It seems sometimes that some Cahtolics (and Protestants and Muslims) yearn for the good ol’ days when misery was the norm and people looked forward to death.

The reality is that there is still plenty of misery in our modern, affluent societies. It’s just not starvation anymore.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

These are the exact words:

While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules. Debt and the accumulation of interest also make it difficult for countries to realize the potential of their own economies and keep citizens from enjoying their real purchasing power. To all this we can add widespread corruption and self-serving tax evasion, which have taken on worldwide dimensions. The thirst for power and possessions knows no limits. In this system, which tends to devour everything which stands in the way of increased profits, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a deified market, which become the only rule.

The most important thing to note here is that the pope, here, is making assertions in what is generally regarded as the academic field of economics. Is our pope an expert economist? No. Is he an economics teacher? No. I don’t begrudge him the right to express his opinion on these subjects but we must be careful to distinguish realms of expertise when evaluating claims.

This passage is damning, perhaps, to Libertarians, but I do not count myself among their number. The gap between rich and poor in America grows in those cities ruled by Democrats and shrinks in those cities ruled by Republicans. Since the emergence of Crony Capitalism and Mussolini-style government ownership of major corporations (the Auto Industry, the Student Loan Industry, the Medical Insurance Industry) under Obama tends to wipe out the middle class, the very policies that a political conservative like myself would most vocally support would, by no coincidence, minimize or eliminate the evils of which the Holy Father in that passage complains.

And this, certainly, ought to give us pause about drawing glib connections of cause and effect, of policy and outcome.

 

[Darryl1958]

nationalreview.com/article/365100/problem-selfishness-kevin-d-williamson

An interesting outside criticism of the pope.

 

[gnjsdad]

The most important thing to note here is that the pope, here, is making assertions in what is generally regarded as the academic field of economics. Is our pope an expert economist? No. Is he an economics teacher? No. I don’t begrudge him the right to express his opinion on these subjects but we must be careful to distinguish realms of expertise when evaluating claims.

It is defined Church doctrine that economic activity (a subsection of all other human activity which involves choices and free will) falls within the jursidiction of the moral order. Morality is superior to economics. The Pope is not merely expressing a personal opinion, but giving voice to what the Church has long taught regarding economics as a matter of justice and the Church’s preferential option for the poor.

The ecomomists need to listen to the Pope, not the other way around.

BTW, I only mention as an aside, and not as an attempt to get the thread off topic, that since the Pope is not a doctor, some argue that it therefore follows that getting an abortion, is something that is of legitimate concern only to a woman and her doctor, and that the Pope should have nothing to say about that.

 

[irishpatrick]

The theme of “money worship” seems to be a cliche that few can resist, even our pope.

Is our Pope Francis teaching us that atheism and homosexuality are ok but shopping for a sale is sin?

Here is the thing: If the storied woman above had traveled from Egypt to Europe today or from Ireland to England in the 1700s or from France to Rome in the 2nd century the reaction would be the same.

The fundamental callenge of mondernity is not “worship of money” but the conquest of poverty. It seems sometimes that some Cahtolics (and Protestants and Muslims) yearn for the good ol’ days when misery was the norm and people looked forward to death.

The reality is that there is still plenty of misery in our modern, affluent societies. It’s just not starvation anymore.

It seems you utterly missed the point in the woman’s story. It makes little difference what happened in other times or places…her overall point was correct. A majority in the USA do worship money, and by that, I am saying they care more about created and wordly things, than they do about God. It is a simple lesson, and one that is both Biblical and as old as humanity.

Money worship is NOT a cliché, it is simply a fact of the world. Black Friday proves this out, with hundreds waiting outside stores for hours just to get their desired created good for a lesser price, and the stampedes and rushes that ensue often hurt others, and sometimes leads to death for a few. Thanksgiving is close to erased in the materialism and consumerism we see in the USA–and more-and-more workers must leave their families to work at stores so that more-and-more people can fill their cravings for more material goods, which in turn means there is less time to give serious thanks to the One who deserves our gratitude, God.

Can you imagine where the USA, and the world, would be if all that “worship” of created goods was turned to the Lord? (that, I believe is one of the major points the Pope is trying to push–stop worshipping created goods, and start robustly worshipping the Lord)

The Pope never said that atheism and homosexual acts are okay, and he did not call shopping a sin.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

It seems you utterly missed the point in the woman’s story. It makes little difference what happened in other times or places…her overall point was correct. A majority in the USA do worship money, and by that, I am saying they care more about created and wordly things, than they do about God. It is a simple lesson, and one that is both Biblical and as old as humanity.

Money worship is NOT a cliché, it is simply a fact of the world. Black Friday proves this out, with hundreds waiting outside stores for hours just to get their desired created good for a lesser price, and the stampedes and rushes that ensue often hurt others, and sometimes leads to death for a few. Thanksgiving is close to erased in the materialism and consumerism we see in the USA–and more-and-more workers must leave their families to work at stores so that more-and-more people can fill their cravings for more material goods, which in turn means there is less time to give serious thanks to the One who deserves our gratitude, God.

Can you imagine where the USA, and the world, would be if all that “worship” of created goods was turned to the Lord? (that, I believe is one of the major points the Pope is trying to push–stop worshipping created goods, and start robustly worshipping the Lord)

The Pope never said that atheism and homosexual acts are okay, and he did not call shopping a sin.

No, I didn’t miss the point, I challenged it. I challenged that one can judge money worship by affluence. I challnged the cliche that having material things constitutes materialism.

There are real problems in the modern world but I fear that the pope is not leading us toward solutions to them.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

It is defined Church doctrine that economic activity (a subsection of all other human activity which involves choices and free will) falls within the jursidiction of the moral order. Morality is superior to economics. The Pope is not merely expressing a personal opinion, but giving voice to what the Church has long taught regarding economics as a matter of justice and the Church’s preferential option for the poor.

The ecomomists need to listen to the Pope, not the other way around.

BTW, I only mention as an aside, and not as an attempt to get the thread off topic, that since the Pope is not a doctor, some argue that it therefore follows that getting an abortion, is something that is of legitimate concern only to a woman and her doctor, and that the Pope should have nothing to say about that.

No, and your abortion example is a perfect analogy. If the pope were to begin dispensing medial advice we would be right to be wary. Instead, the pope defines abortion broadly as the intentional killing of of an unbon child and leaves the medicine to doctors.

All human activity is subordinate to moral imperatives but, yes, there is such a thing as expertise outside the vatican.

 

[Darryl1958]

It seems you utterly missed the point in the woman’s story. It makes little difference what happened in other times or places…her overall point was correct. A majority in the USA do worship money, and by that, I am saying they care more about created and wordly things, than they do about God. It is a simple lesson, and one that is both Biblical and as old as humanity.

Money worship is NOT a cliché, it is simply a fact of the world. Black Friday proves this out, with hundreds waiting outside stores for hours just to get their desired created good for a lesser price, and the stampedes and rushes that ensue often hurt others, and sometimes leads to death for a few. Thanksgiving is close to erased in the materialism and consumerism we see in the USA–and more-and-more workers must leave their families to work at stores so that more-and-more people can fill their cravings for more material goods, which in turn means there is less time to give serious thanks to the One who deserves our gratitude, God.

Can you imagine where the USA, and the world, would be if all that “worship” of created goods was turned to the Lord? (that, I believe is one of the major points the Pope is trying to push–stop worshipping created goods, and start robustly worshipping the Lord)

The Pope never said that atheism and homosexual acts are okay, and he did not call shopping a sin.

I think what many. if not most, people are doing on Black Friday are rushing into the stores to get a good deal on the Christmas gifts that they will give to others in a month.
We can look at them from the outside, see the mad rush, and think that they are consumed with a blind need to consume for themselves. If you look at what they are motivated by, which is not apparent from the birds eye view which only sees the mad dash of the horde toward the doors the moment they crack open, what you see is that what is driving many is the love that they have for Billie and Jodie and that they are spending their time to get a nice gift for these kiddies at a good price.
It would be easy for me to be disdainful of these mad shoppers too, but I know myself well enough to know that I am a bit of a miser and a scrooge, and any kind of harsh judgement I have for these people is probably going to be as much motivated by my own inner stinginess than anything that these shoppers are doing.

 

[irishpatrick]

I think what many. if not most, people are doing on Black Friday are rushing into the stores to get a good deal on the Christmas gifts that they will give to others in a month.
We can look at them from the outside, see the mad rush, and think that they are consumed with a blind need to consume for themselves. If you look at what they are motivated by, which is not apparent from the birds eye view which only sees the mad dash of the horde toward the doors the moment they crack open, what you see is that what is driving many is the love that they have for Billie and Jodie and that they are spending their time to get a nice gift for these kiddies at a good price.
It would be easy for me to be disdainful of these mad shoppers too, but I know myself well enough to know that I am a bit of a miser and a scrooge, and any kind of harsh judgement I have for these people is probably going to be as much motivated by my own inner stinginess than anything that these shoppers are doing.

Without doubt, there are people in those lines that hold the feelings you attribute to them; however, I suspect (from merely anecdotal stories) that a great many just want to buy something a reduced price (which, btw, has been proved to mostly not be true that things are a lesser price). The point is, people lose sleep, they leave their families, just to stand in line for hours to get stuff.

People twenty years ago did not love Billie and Jodie less, they simply had different priorities. We are a consumer and money driven culture–the Pope is calling all people to move away from that.

 

[irishpatrick]

No, I didn’t miss the point, I challenged it. I challenged that one can judge money worship by affluence. I challnged the cliche that having material things constitutes materialism.

There are real problems in the modern world but I fear that the pope is not leading us toward solutions to them.

Hmmmm, by trying to get people to care more about God, and less about material goods…that would not help solve at least some of our problems? Okay.

There is nothing wrong with affluence, and I never said there was, and neither did the Pope. The point is simple: money is a tool, nothing more, and we should treat it like any important tool, but yet still just a tool. Nothing in our lives (NOTHING) should come even remotely close to our love for God (not people, not family members, not money, nothing). I am quite sure there are many wealthy people who have good priorities…these points are not a rich versus poor discussion.

 

[Durnford]

This is a clear clear message to all those Catholics that think they can support the Church on abortion and gay marriage all the while ignoring every other aspect of Church social teaching. Radical consumeristic capitalism is simply not acceptable. A just economic system is not optional.

Also glad to see the Pope’s reaffirming the dignity of the unborn.

Thank you
I agree with your statement.

 

[Durnford]

American Catholicism is highly selective of what aspects of Church doctrine it wishes to support. The current iniquitous system created largely by western corporate greed has resulted in gross inequality in the world. The Holy Father is right to condemn this corporate greed as a sin just as Pope JP II was correct in his condemnation of anti-life Communism. In reality the abortion on demand mindset is a direct result of corporate greed and a consumerist way of viewing the world.

 

[stinkcat_14]

No, and your abortion example is a perfect analogy. If the pope were to begin dispensing medial advice we would be right to be wary. Instead, the pope defines abortion broadly as the intentional killing of of an unbon child and leaves the medicine to doctors.

All human activity is subordinate to moral imperatives but, yes, there is such a thing as expertise outside the vatican.

I am not sure that there is a Catholic or Christian economist who believes that we fulfill our obligation to the poor solely by pursuing our own self interests in the marketplace. Pursuing our own self interest in many cases can help everyone the poor included. But there can also be changes in the marketplace that don’t benefit the poor. As Catholics we need to do more than rely on the marketplace to help the poor. Now, where people can debate is what form that help should take and how it should be delivered.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I am not sure that there is a Catholic or Christian economist who believes that we fulfill our obligation to the poor solely by pursuing our own self interests in the marketplace. Pursuing our own self interest in many cases can help everyone the poor included. But there can also be changes in the marketplace that don’t benefit the poor. As Catholics we need to do more than rely on the marketplace to help the poor. Now, where people can debate is what form that help should take and how it should be delivered.

Well, its just sad that one side in the debate can be so ignorant of thexistence, let alone the positions, of the other side.

The short answer is that, yes, there are Cathoilics and Christians who support free markets and you can start your search here:

www.acton.org

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

American Catholicism is highly selective of what aspects of Church doctrine it wishes to support. The current iniquitous system created largely by western corporate greed has resulted in gross inequality in the world. The Holy Father is right to condemn this corporate greed as a sin just as Pope JP II was correct in his condemnation of anti-life Communism. In reality the abortion on demand mindset is a direct result of corporate greed and a consumerist way of viewing the world.

It has never been the position of the Church that Communism and free market capitalism are equally distorted as your “just as” implies.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Hmmmm, by trying to get people to care more about God, and less about material goods…that would not help solve at least some of our problems? Okay.

There is nothing wrong with affluence, and I never said there was, and neither did the Pope. The point is simple: money is a tool, nothing more, and we should treat it like any important tool, but yet still just a tool. Nothing in our lives (NOTHING) should come even remotely close to our love for God (not people, not family members, not money, nothing). I am quite sure there are many wealthy people who have good priorities…these points are not a rich versus poor discussion.

I am not claiming thaat the divine and material are in competition. I am not a gnostic.

I am glad that you seem to be acknowledging that affluence is not, in and of itself, sinful.

I am perfectly ready to acknowledge, nay eager to assert, that the modern affluent society presents real problems that the Church is challenged to address. Growing atheism is on symptom among many.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Well, its just sad that one side in the debate can be so ignorant of thexistence, let alone the positions, of the other side.

Which side of the debate are you talking about? Are you saying that there are Catholics/Christians who claim that we fulfill our obligation to the poor solely by pursuing our self interests in the marketplace?

The short answer is that, yes, there are Cathoilics and Christians who support free markets and you can start your search here:

www.acton.org

I am not sure of anything that the Pope has said that is inconsistent with the idea of free markets.