Pope Francis denounces ‘trickle-down’ economic theories in critique of inequality

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Bubba_Switzler said:
It’s sad that some choose not to engage in serious discussion of a serious subject.

My point that #1 is true is well proven by history. No amount of dressing up the liberation of billions from abject poverty by free markets in the dress of “social darwinism” will change that.

If you are looking for human tragedy, take a glance back at the history of unfettered governent.

Your assumption that if I only read Francis more closely I will forget the facts and drink the socialist koolaid is sophomoric.
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Now you accuse the Pope, no less, of not engaging on a serious subject. I get it, when it comes to materialism and greed. I’ve heard the various hard hearted rationalizations. The bible also has something to say about it.

Sure, monopolistic practices are the most efficient, and the fairest form of economic distribution. No, the poor have no need of medical care. They are poor. Why would they need it? Don’t they have their own bootstraps, if they want enough to eat? Yes, flying in a private jet makes perfect sense. It’s far more important to have heated toilet seats in a large house than it is to provide sanitation to a village.

Let’s all pray for Francis to succeed in his battle against such materialism.
 
NewEnglandPriest said:
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I couldn’t agree more! Not everything is about the USA. There’s a whole world out there!

In Latin America, where the Holy Father is from, capitalism does not really exist in USA style. There are few to no limits on monopolies and even basic labor protections are rejected as “anti-business.” There exists little to no social safety net, if you are unable to work you starve. Giant monopolies, corruption, no labor protection, etc. are all justified in the name of capitalism and “freedom”, and anyone who disagrees must be a communist! Of course, its just as obscene in reverse in socialist countries like Venezuela, but that’s not what the Holy Father is addressing.

Here in the USA, imho, the Holy Father’s words are food for thought rather than a direct challenge. Very few American conservatives see their economic policies are the solution to social ills but we should always keep in the forefront of our minds how our economic policies affect the poor both here and abroad…
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It was interesting that you mentioned this.

On Friday, I was talking with an Irish priest. He is from a missionary order and has spent the last 30+ years working in Central and South America.

His take on the Exhortation is very much like yours, that the economic section is mostly directed at Latin American, for the same reasons that you offer.

Fr said that, in most of Central and South America, corporations are generally free to do what they like, with the government’s role being simply to collect taxes, and\or bribes. There are little to no environmental controls, no inspections (other to collect bribes) and little to no worker safety laws.

He had a specific quote " Only a fool would think America has no regulations. American companies are as heavily regulated as any I have seen in Europe"
 
Yerusalyim said:
The standard of living in the US is so high because we as a nation have embraced the free market…free market capitalism has done much more for standards of living than charity. The receipt of charity is meant to be an event, not a lifestyle.
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Actually, we are not a free market economy, we are very much a mixed economy. And of course, places like Canada have an even larger government sector and their standard of living is still high. So it is a matter of debate in economics as to how much the standard of living is influenced purely by markets and how government affects this.
So when the church reminds me I am called to personal charity I am thankful…Jesus AVOIDED POLITICS and the Church should too.
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There is nothing in Church teaching that says that we cannot decide to collectively deal with social problems. We can debate whether it is prudent, but it has never been taught as immoral. For example, we could rely on charity for national defense and have voluntary militias funded entirely by donations. But in this country we don’t do that and few suggest that it is immoral.
The bible…show me where in the message of the bible that the country rather than the person is called to charity. If you tax me and redistribute my income I have not been charitable…redistribution of wealth was NEVER a message of Christ and ALWAYS a message of Marx.
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It was never condemned by the bible or the Church either.
 
Brendan said:
It was interesting that you mentioned this.

On Friday, I was talking with an Irish priest. He is from a missionary order and has spent the last 30+ years working in Central and South America.

His take on the Exhortation is very much like yours, that the economic section is mostly directed at Latin American, for the same reasons that you offer.

Fr said that, in most of Central and South America, corporations are generally free to do what they like, with the government’s role being simply to collect taxes, and\or bribes. There are little to no environmental controls, no inspections (other to collect bribes) and little to no worker safety laws.

He had a specific quote " Only a fool would think America has no regulations. American companies are as heavily regulated as any I have seen in Europe"
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Let’s be grateful that large business interests do not have a disproportionate share of influence in politics or government, as we saw demonstrated with the Citizens United ruling and Obamacare, written by the insurance industry.
 
Yerusalyim said:
It’s from such writings as these that people get the idea that a $15 an hour minimum wage is “just.” I’m sorry, but there are very few locations on this planet where $15 an hour for flipping burgers is “just.”
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I am not sure how you can say that it is not just. If someone can get $15 an hour, then it is just. Now is it unjust if they use the apparatus of government to get it? If so, then there are a lot of people with unjustly high wages. A big cause of this is occupational licensing requirements. For example, lawyers whose trade organization goes after people for the unauthorized practice of law. Or medical licensing, which serves as a barrier to entry to many medical professions.
 
Brendan said:
It was interesting that you mentioned this.

On Friday, I was talking with an Irish priest. He is from a missionary order and has spent the last 30+ years working in Central and South America.

His take on the Exhortation is very much like yours, that the economic section is mostly directed at Latin American, for the same reasons that you offer.

Fr said that, in most of Central and South America, corporations are generally free to do what they like, with the government’s role being simply to collect taxes, and\or bribes. There are little to no environmental controls, no inspections (other to collect bribes) and little to no worker safety laws.

He had a specific quote " Only a fool would think America has no regulations. American companies are as heavily regulated as any I have seen in Europe"
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Most Americans have no conception of what real poverty is.
 
colmywaykurtz said:
Sure. The conspiracy theorists who are screaming the loudest about “spin” in everything concerning the Pontiff’s words are some of the worst “spinmeisters.”
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There is nothing to spin.Conservatives are judt as dedicated to helping the poor and needy as Liberals are.We differ on the best way to do it.The other difference is Conservatives believe the right to life is foundational to helping the poor.Liberals believe they can cast that aside in favor of a candidate who promises higher taxes on the rich and bigger govt.

And what are the other Liberal approaches to helping the poor? Contraception, abortion, anything possible to keep the poor from having children.In tuth anyone who reed the Popes document in context with the Churches unchanging teachings on morality know its not the conservatives who need to do the spinning. I am sure this document will be misquoted ad nauseum as the next election approaches. Misused as evidence for those who put politics before faith that is ok to support evil for the greater good
 
Yerusalyim said:
It’s from such writings as these that people get the idea that a $15 an hour minimum wage is “just.” I’m sorry, but there are very few locations on this planet where $15 an hour for flipping burgers is “just.”

Call me to personal charity, to an ethical lifestyle, to being fair and upfront in my business dealings and I’m fine…tell me capitalism is the problem and I just stare and wonder what you’ve been looking at. Compare the lifestyle of the poor in the US to the poor in Cuba and tell me which system is working better. I would really like to see the Church be a bit more even-handed in its condemnation of economic systems.
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And yet, $15/hr is less than a “living wage” in many US locations. For example, a person receiving such a wage would not be able to provide shelter, food, education and medical insurance for a wife and one child, in many places.

I am not defending Cuba. But, at least medical care is provided. The Cuban government even provides scholarships for medical school to US students, surprisingly.
 
estesbob said:
Most Americans have no conception of what real poverty is.
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No kidding. I do regular mission work in a diocese in rural Tanzania. The average family income in that area is about $600 a year.

Even in inner city Detroit ( where I also do volunteer work) just about everyone there I meet has a material wealth that would astound most of the Tanzanians that I work with.
 
epan said:
And yet, $15/hr is less than a “living wage” in many US locations. For example, a person receiving such a wage would not be able to provide shelter, food, education and medical insurance for a wife and one child, in many places. .
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What then, should one of these workers be obligated to pay for a babysitter if they have to work late? Also the same minimum rate?
 
epan said:
And yet, $15/hr is less than a “living wage” in many US locations. For example, a person receiving such a wage would not be able to provide shelter, food, education and medical insurance for a wife and one child, in many places.

I am not defending Cuba. But, at least medical care is provided. The Cuban government even provides scholarships for medical school to US students, surprisingly.
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So wages should be determined by the number of dependents one has?
 
Suslar said:
So after 20+ pages of posts,
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You can change your options to show 100 posts per page if it makes things easier. Turn off pictures and graphics so the pages load faster while you’re at it. Just saying.
 
Brendan said:
What then, should one of these workers be obligated to pay for a babysitter if they have to work late? Also the same minimum rate?
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Ah, the red herring. Let’s try a reasonable approach. Babysitters who are earning spending money for prom dresses, or first cars (not to be sexist), may work at any wage they like. But, what do you say about a society which requires a parent to provide medical care and schooling for a child, who works harder than many, and is only paid a wage which would support that child 30 years ago, while the rich have upped the size of a super yacht from 100 feet to the new standard of 400 ft?

There is a very basic social justice issue, which the Pope is addressing. Throwing dirt in the air, and trying to cloud the basic issue just comes across as greed.

The Catholic Church has, at long last, a pope who cares about the more important and relevant issues. Call it the Holy Spirit intervening after these previous dark years, and rejoice.

Is it more important to fuel a super yacht, at $800k-$1m per crossing (plus quadruple that for base expenses, in addition to the 200,000 gallons of fuel)? Or, is it more important to spend a few million to provide basic needs for those who are suffering to support the super yacht owner. I think the the Pope has figured out his answer to this question.
 
epan said:
Ah, the red herring. Let’s try a reasonable approach. Babysitters who are earning spending money for prom dresses, or first cars (not to be sexist), may work at any wage they like. But, what do you say about a society which requires a parent to provide medical care and schooling for a child, but who wrks harder than many, and is only paid a wage which would support that child 30 years ago, while the rich have upped the size of a super yacht from 100 feet to the new standard of 400 ft.

There is a very basic social justice issue, which the Pope is addressing. Throwing dirt in the air, and trying to cloud the basic issue just comes across as greed.

The Catholic Church has, at long last, a pope who cares about the more important and relevant issues. Call it the Holy Spirit intervening after these previous dark years, and rejoice.
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So if the babysitter is a single mother of two she should be paid $15 an hour? And even more if the parents own a yacht?
 
estesbob said:
The other difference is Conservatives believe the right to life is foundational to helping the poor.
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They may believe that, but the PERCEPTION is that they (along with many liberals) would rather not deal with it directly either.
 
estesbob said:
So if the babysitter is a single mother of two she should be paid $15 an hour? And even more if the parents own a yacht?
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Yes, in that case, she should receive minimum wage. It’s not so difficult as you are trying to make it out to be. It’s known as basic decency. I realize that it won’t pay for a closet full of $3,000 shoes. But it will buy a pound of hamburger and some veges for many kids.
 
epan said:
Ah, the red herring. Let’s try a reasonable approach. Babysitters who are earning spending money for prom dresses, or first cars (not to be sexist), may work at any wage they like. But, what do you say about a society which requires a parent to provide medical care and schooling for a child, who works harder than many, and is only paid a wage which would support that child 30 years ago, while the rich have upped the size of a super yacht from 100 feet to the new standard of 400 ft?
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It’s always easy to say what amount SHOULD be paid except if you’re the person whose pocket it comes from.
 
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