Pope Francis denounces ‘trickle-down’ economic theories in critique of inequality

[Bubba_Switzler]

Which side of the debate are you talking about? Are you saying that there are Catholics/Christians who claim that we fulfill our obligation to the poor solely by pursuing our self interests in the marketplace?

I am not sure of anything that the Pope has said that is inconsistent with the idea of free markets.

Part of what’s going on here is trying to figure this out. Without a doubt there are many here who are eager to read the pope this way.

But if we are going to have a serious discussion it is important to understand what exactly eah is claiming and to be humble before the truth. It dois not advance the debate to ascribe straw men as opponents. For example, can anyone point to a society with “unfettered” markets?

 

[stinkcat_14]

Part of what’s going on here is trying to figure this out. Without a doubt there are many here who are eager to read the pope this way.

But if we are going to have a serious discussion it is important to understand what exactly eah is claiming and to be humble before the truth. It dois not advance the debate to ascribe straw men as opponents. For example, can anyone point to a society with “unfettered” markets?

I think the biggest problem in the debate stems from a lack of understanding of economics. And that lack of understanding applies to both conservatives and liberals.

 

[irishpatrick]

I am not claiming thaat the divine and material are in competition. I am not a gnostic.

I am glad that you seem to be acknowledging that affluence is not, in and of itself, sinful.

I am perfectly ready to acknowledge, nay eager to assert, that the modern affluent society presents real problems that the Church is challenged to address. Growing atheism is on symptom among many.

Of course, affluence is not, in and of itself, sinful.

I believe that the Pope’s driving message (so far) has been crafted to attract people back to Christ. I believe (do not know), that the Pope senses rough waters ahead and he wants to pull as many souls as he can into the safety of the Ark (Catholic Church). To do that, he must craft positions that will often have both sides shaking their heads, yet will also, at the same time, attract many to Christ through His Church.

I think the Pope wants us to take our eyes away from worldly things so that more souls can be saved in the process.

Finally, I feel we must (all) try to discern the work the Holy Spirit is trying to work through the Pope, and to do that, we must look beyond phrases in speeches and homilies and even books, and instead look to the overall message the Pope has been delivering. He seems to be pushing a message of hope in God’s Mercy, with an emphasis on the poor. I believe that while the Pope’s message is valid for everyone, it is even more pertinent to those who he is attempting to renew, or initiate, into a faith walk with Christ. The world needs more Christ.

I believe many people are trying to boil down the Pope’s words to fit into one agenda, or another, and those agendas likely have nothing at all to do with the real message the Pope is pushing out to the world.

Basically–everybody aboard the Ark!

 

[Yerusalyim]

Generally speaking, Popes do not understand economics. The standard of living in the US is awesome compared with most of the world. Jesus message wasn’t about economics or politics…why does the Church insist on treading these waters? We are called to personal NOT corporate charity.

 

[seekerz]

In reality the abortion on demand mindset is a direct result of corporate greed and a consumerist way of viewing the world.

Spot on and I don’t see how it is so difficult to figure this out. The mindset actually began with the worldwide propagation of family planning as a strategy of economic development and it has morphed into making not just birth control, but also access to ‘safe’ legal abortion, a universal right.

These make interesting reading on that progression, both nationally and internationally:

brookings.edu/~/media/Projects/BPEA/Spring%202013/2013a_bailey.pdf

www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2007/08/15/000020953_20070815143130/Rendered/PDF/405350Familiy0101OFFICIAL0USE0ONLY1.pdf

It remains incomprehensible to me, how it is possible to consider poverty and ‘life issues’ in isolation, since in our modern economic theories (and the policies that flow from them) they are inextricably linked.

 

[seekerz]

Generally speaking, Popes do not understand economics.

But you do?

The standard of living in the US is awesome compared with most of the world.

Might that be part of the inequity problem the Pope is speaking of? Surely, national economic prosperity does not fall from the sky - it comes at least partly, from nations interacting with each other…

Jesus message wasn’t about economics or politics…why does the Church insist on treading these waters?

Perhaps the Church insists ***because of ***Jesus message - which is about ALL of life, not just the 60 minutes spent at Mass…

We are called to personal NOT corporate charity.

By whom are we called in this way? I’m pretty sure the Church hears no such thing in Jesus’ message, so can you point to a greater authority?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Generally speaking, Popes do not understand economics. The standard of living in the US is awesome compared with most of the world. Jesus message wasn’t about economics or politics…why does the Church insist on treading these waters? We are called to personal NOT corporate charity.

The Pope does not just speak to the US. However, we can’t therefore completely ignore his message. We can always look to ways to do better. We are called by Christ to be perfect. I know I am not, so I look to the Church and her teachings (including those from the current Pope and bishops across the world) to help me become perfect.

We are also indeed called to corporate charity. Any group - including businesses and governments - is made up of people who are hopefully all striving to do what is best not only for themselves individually, but also for those they interact with - customers, employees, suppliers, partners, constituents, trading partners, neighboring countries, etc.

Yes, there can be more than one way to the goal of a nation knowing that its citizens are housed, fed, educated (or a business knowing that of its workers, a person helping their neighbor), but we shouldn’t be happy to say “I’m OK and at least everyone else isn’t actually starving.”

 

[gnjsdad]

The short answer is that, yes, there are Cathoilics and Christians who support free markets and you can start your search here:

www.acton.org

I would prefer to cite authentic Catholic organizations, not the Acton Institute and Robert Sirico, who are paid very well to churn out opinions touting the benefits of the status quo.

For instance, Sirico criticized efforts of adjunct professors at Duquesne University to unionize.

*Rev. Robert A. Sirico, a Catholic priest and the author of “Defending the Free Market,” says that the importance of unions in Catholic teaching is historically contingent. It matters, Father Sirico said, that Pope Leo XIII’s “Rerum Novarum” was written in 1891, not today. *

*“In the industrial revolution, the church was concerned about communism, and not just capitalism but savage capitalism,” Father Sirico said. “People were being brutalized. That’s just not the case in Pittsburgh today.” *

nytimes.com/2012/06/23/education/for-professors-at-duquesne-university-union-fight-transcends-religion.html?_r=1&

Oh, really? Then what about the sad case of Mary Vojtko, a Duquesne adjunct for 25 years who died in poverty recently. She taught 3 classes a semester and 2 each summer, didn’t clear $25,000 and got no health benefits? Duquense cut her to one class per semeter for under $10,000. With high medical bills (cancer) and no health insurance and unable to afford to heat her home, she took a night job at a local fast food place and slept during the day at her university office. Duquesne got the police to remove her and ultimately let her go.

The story can be read here.

Seems to me this is a perfect example of what the Pope is speaking out against and what Acton sees nothing wrong with.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I would prefer to cite authentic Catholic organizations, not the Acton Institute and Robert Sirico, who are paid very well to churn out opinions touting the benefits of the status quo. …
Seems to me this is a perfect example of what the Pope is speaking out against and what Acton sees nothing wrong with.

Your preference is noted but I did not cite the Acton Institute to pacify socialists but to demonstratrate that there is, indeed, another side in this debate, that there are Catholics and other Christians making the Christian case for free market capitalism.

And your assertion that the pope is speaking against free market capitalism should answer those who insist that nobodoy thinks that.

 

[Yerusalyim]

But you do?

I think I have a pretty firm grasp on how economics work.

Might that be part of the inequity problem the Pope is speaking of? Surely, national economic prosperity does not fall from the sky - it comes at least partly, from nations interacting with each other…

The standard of living in the US is so high because we as a nation have embraced the free market…free market capitalism has done much more for standards of living than charity. The receipt of charity is meant to be an event, not a lifestyle.

Perhaps the Church insists ***because of ***Jesus message - which is about ALL of life, not just the 60 minutes spent at Mass…

So when the church reminds me I am called to personal charity I am thankful…Jesus AVOIDED POLITICS and the Church should too.

By whom are we called in this way? I’m pretty sure the Church hears no such thing in Jesus’ message, so can you point to a greater authority?

The bible…show me where in the message of the bible that the country rather than the person is called to charity. If you tax me and redistribute my income I have not been charitable…redistribution of wealth was NEVER a message of Christ and ALWAYS a message of Marx.

 

[TRH1292]

I think I have a pretty firm grasp on how economics work.

The standard of living in the US is so high because we as a nation have embraced the free market…free market capitalism has done much more for standards of living than charity. The receipt of charity is meant to be an event, not a lifestyle.

So when the church reminds me I am called to personal charity I am thankful…Jesus AVOIDED POLITICS and the Church should too.

The bible…show me where in the message of the bible that the country rather than the person is called to charity. If you tax me and redistribute my income I have not been charitable…redistribution of wealth was NEVER a message of Christ and ALWAYS a message of Marx.

I don’t think you get to tell the Church what to do, or the Holy Father.

Are you a protestant, or a Catholic?

 

[TRH1292]

American Catholicism is highly selective of what aspects of Church doctrine it wishes to support. The current iniquitous system created largely by western corporate greed has resulted in gross inequality in the world. The Holy Father is right to condemn this corporate greed as a sin just as Pope JP II was correct in his condemnation of anti-life Communism. In reality the abortion on demand mindset is a direct result of corporate greed and a consumerist way of viewing the world.

Bingo!

 

[Yerusalyim]

I don’t think you get to tell the Church what to do, or the Holy Father.

Are you a protestant, or a Catholic?

I am a Catholic…and I have the canonical right to address grievances.

Some of what the Pope has written is correct, things like tax evasion and consumerism are bad…businesses shouldn’t exploit their workers…but then we have to get to the point of defining “exploitation”" And while I can support those aspects of the Pope’s words, I would be much more encouraged if the Pope and those who support this “social justice” stuff if they would address things that have just as large an impact on poverty…things like being a single parent. Broken families are a much greater surety of poverty than a businessman watching his bottom line. Addiction, consumerism, a sense of entitlement that excludes hard work…
My reading of the gospels do not show Christ addressing specific economic systems. In fact he went to lengths to avoid it…rather, he focused on individuals…as a Christian a businessman must be honest and upright in his dealings with his employees and with other businesses. I am called to do the same thing…I am generous with my charity…but I don’t want the government taking my money to be generous for me. They SUCK at it…the government is more wasteful and corrupt than are the businesses.

It’s from such writings as these that people get the idea that a $15 an hour minimum wage is “just.” I’m sorry, but there are very few locations on this planet where $15 an hour for flipping burgers is “just.”

Call me to personal charity, to an ethical lifestyle, to being fair and upfront in my business dealings and I’m fine…tell me capitalism is the problem and I just stare and wonder what you’ve been looking at. Compare the lifestyle of the poor in the US to the poor in Cuba and tell me which system is working better. I would really like to see the Church be a bit more even-handed in its condemnation of economic systems.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Actually, I’m not so upset with the Pope or Bishops for writing this as I am for “progressives” using it to try to sell their political point of view. These are the same progressives that are supporting abortion on demand and free contraceptives.

 

[Suslar]

So after 20+ pages of posts, I think it is appropriate to ask, what are each of us personally planning on doing to show preferential option for the poor? How will the Holy Father’s comments and witness by his example motivate us this Advent season to sacrifice until it hurts?

We will always have the poor among us. Yet, it is time to recognize they are entrusted to us as our brothers and sisters. Giving to the poor then is not charity, but justice.

 

[Lochias]

Material poverty is not the problem with America’s poor. We generally provide all the material necessities, food, housing, medical care and education.

No, we generally don’t. I’ve watched two family members wither away to husks over 15 years, doing everything that they can do, while our greedy, corrupt, horrible country lets them wither.

There are times when I deeply, truly hate what “America” has become.

 

[Darryl1958]

Part of what’s going on here is trying to figure this out. Without a doubt there are many here who are eager to read the pope this way.

But if we are going to have a serious discussion it is important to understand what exactly eah is claiming and to be humble before the truth. It dois not advance the debate to ascribe straw men as opponents. For example, can anyone point to a society with “unfettered” markets?

The only societies with unfettered markets are the criminal ones operating above the law, such as the drug cartels of Mexico and South and Central America, or the slave trading Arabs in North Africa.
Criminal activity that exists in places where the law is non-existent or too weak to have any influence have unfettered markets.

Aside from that, ‘too big to fail’ scenarios, where governments actively sustain businesses with tax dollars is an example of a market unfettered by what would normally serve as the fetters of reality, where failure is actually actively rewarded by taxes and the illusionary money that governments can bring into existence with a few clicks of a mouse…

If I was going to define the terms, I would differentiate between a free market and an unfettered market. A free market has parameters laid out for it, like a well-defined ski route, in which the players are free to do whatever they please within those parameters. Unfettered markets have no such markers laid out for them, so that the usual scenario is that people end up crashing into the trees and falling off cliffs.

I think that all Catholics would agree that criminal markets, which exist mainly in inner cities and third world countries without institutional strength to oppose the gangs and the warlords, are immoral systems.

I think we would all mostly agree to that the parameters in the United States housing bubble and burst were not sufficient to keep the players from dropping off cliffs and smashing into trees, with all the thrills going to the powerful, and all the pain and medical costs going to the taxpayer. It is something that even Tea Party and OWS agreed with.

The open question is whether or not some see the solution as closing down the ski hill altogether as the adequate parameter Those who are saying that the pope is denouncing capitalism are in effect coming out against skiing altogether

 

[ReConverted]

This is a clear clear message to all those Catholics that think they can support the Church on abortion and gay marriage all the while ignoring every other aspect of Church social teaching. Radical consumeristic capitalism is simply not acceptable. A just economic system is not optional. .

Perfectly stated. Thank you!

 

[ReConverted]

I think some of you just need to be honest and admit that you simply do not believe in the teachings of Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis in regards to the economy. I mean honestly, it’s hard to see how the Holy Father could have been any more clear in these statements. He very obviously does not like this gung ho laissez faire form of economics. It is almost to the point where the Pope is saying “The Kettle is black” and others immediately said “The pope isn’t saying the kettle is black!”.

Although this is the strongest statement to date, this is just a repeat of what the Holy Father has been alluding to and saying for some time: The current world economic system, built off of a selfish form of capitalism, is not just. We have to give a bigger space for helping the poor and we have to combat the tendency towards selfishness and materialism that is seemingly inherent in the current system.

But I have no idea why I am saying this, because if you don’t listen to the words of the Holy Father, you certainly won’t be listening to me.

Stop making sense!

 

[ReConverted]

Exactly. When I was single I made about 26k per year, and I paid taxes. So, that means 50% of the country makes even less than that. I don’t whine, “Why don’t they pay taxes?” I ask in outrage, “What is wrong with our society that they don’t earn enough to pay taxes?”

Amen, sister!