Pope Francis denounces ‘trickle-down’ economic theories in critique of inequality

[ishii]

So you’re telling me that economic injustice does not exist in America and you deign to translate the Pope’s word to unclean, Catholic Social Justice advocates like myself? Wow…

I didn’t say economic injustice doesn’t exists, I said it doesn’t flourish. There is a difference. Perhaps you should re-read your post as you were the one that used the word flourish. There are areas that don’t have enough economic opportunity due to: downturns in the business cycle, excessive taxation and regulation. These should improve once the current regime is thrown out.

Translation: I have not translated the Pope’s words, just cautioned against mistranslation of his words to suit one’s ideology.

Catholic justice advocate: what do you advocate?

Ishii

 

[Silvio_Dante]

I didn’t say economic injustice doesn’t exists, I said it doesn’t flourish. There is a difference. Perhaps you should re-read your post as you were the one that used the word flourish. There are areas that don’t have enough economic opportunity due to: downturns in the business cycle, excessive taxation and regulation. These should improve once the current regime is thrown out.

Translation: I have not translated the Pope’s words, just cautioned against mistranslation of his words to suit one’s ideology.

Catholic justice advocate: what do you advocate?

Ishii

You’re some cookie. Referring to folk who may mistranslate to suit their own agenda when you come out with such beauties like ‘regulation is bad’…

It was unregulated vulture Capitalism that caused this depression and sees billions of people living on less than a dollar a day. But what the hey. As long as heroes like The Donald are able to live the high life its all worth it right…? I mean what would the 47% know what to do with a fair chance in life?

I advocate for the poor who are rendered voiceless and dispossessed at the expense of a political ideology that rewards flagrant disregard for human life and is addicted to gambling on financial markets…

 

[Darryl1958]

The horse must be put before the cart.

One note of context it is absolutely vital to remember: all of the Papal denunciations of socialism and communism you posted point to socialism and communism as erroneous reactions to the injustices of the capitalist, or “neoliberal” system.

I think it’s safe to say: were it not for the injustices inherent in capitalism (injustices which Pope Francis is beginning to draw attention to), there would have been no socialist reaction.

If the injustices are inherent to capitalism, then capitalism certainly would be subject to the same blanket condemnations that as Papal denunciations have subjected socialism and capitalism to.

Suffice it to say that as a response to capitalist injustice, Catholics who look to the papacy for guidance cannot honestly propose either socialism or communism as solutions.
And I am not sure where that would leave any of us in terms of what kind of system to work toward. Separation of powers in government, regulations that enable rather than stifle the entrepreneurship of individuals, growing the size of small non-governmental institutions such as churches and community organizations such as KofC etc by allowing them to do the jobs that big government have now taken over, limiting the size of central government in order to limit the ability of large corporations to buy governments to then pass laws that favor them, greater use of the courts and tort law to punish corporations who hurt society with their greed, promotion of family values rather than redefining marriage as personal fulfillment, empowering parents and allowing them to choose the values they want to school their children with through a voucher system; these are some of the things that conservatives have tended to propose.

Liberals, I suppose, have their own proposals too. A lot of them however are advocating the same kind of socialisms that have already been totally rejected by the popes as perverse solutions to the plight of the poor.

For sure, John Paul II spoke out adamantly against liberation theology. With that in mind, it is fair to point out that the Obama’s Christianity was Liberation Theology for decades before he became president.

 

[Silvio_Dante]

For sure, John Paul II spoke out adamantly against liberation theology. With that in mind, it is fair to point out that the Obama’s Christianity was Liberation Theology for decades before he became president.

If Obama were a true Liberation Theology follower I’d have far more respect for him. But he’s about as effective as a chocolate bar in the desert.

It is important to note that LT plays a huge and wonderful part in the Third World Church and Pope Francis rubbed shoulders with many LT advocates during his time as a Priest, Bishop and Cardinal…

 

[Darryl1958]

If Obama were a true Liberation Theology follower I’d have far more respect for him. But he’s about as effective as a chocolate bar in the desert.

The papacy, in the voice of JPII, has already spoken out strongly against Liberation Theology.

Liberation theology is a form of Marxism, pure and simple.

It is important to note that LT plays a huge and wonderful part in the Third World Church and Pope Francis rubbed shoulders with many LT advocates during his time as a Priest, Bishop and Cardinal…

I don’t know where we can go further with this. Pope Francis says he is not a Marxist. I can only assume he is not lying when he says so.

 

[ishii]

You’re some cookie. Referring to folk who may mistranslate to suit their own agenda when you come out with such beauties like ‘regulation is bad’…

You seem to have a penchant for misstating my words. I never said regulation is bad, I said excessive regulation is harmful to economic opportunity. IF those who say they work for the poor truly do care about the poor, they would not advocate measures which limit economic opportunities that help lift up the poor out of poverty.

It was unregulated vulture Capitalism that caused this depression and sees billions of people living on less than a dollar a day. But what the hey. As long as heroes like The Donald are able to live the high life its all worth it right..? I mean what would the 47% know what to do with a fair chance in life?

No, what helped cause this recession was the government meddling in the housing market - specifically the Community Reinvestment Act which which forced lending institutions to lend to people who couldn’t afford a house. I don’t care much for Donald Trump - but I do know that his wealth is not a cause of poverty in the US.

 I advocate for the poor who are rendered voiceless and dispossessed at the expense of a political ideology that rewards flagrant disregard for human life and is addicted to gambling on financial markets...

That’s great to advocate for the poor. You should also learn more about economics - specifically the economic policies which, while ostensibly designed to help the poor, actually hurt the poor.

 

[KSU]

So you are in agreement with the Pope?

Whats the problem…?

I am always in agreement with all of the popes. The problem is the way the Left twists what the popes have said. This side splitter for example: “socialism and communism are erroneous reactions to the injustices of the capitalist, or ‘neoliberal’ system.”; or this whopper: “It is important to note that LT [Liberation Theology] plays a huge and wonderful part in the Third World Church.”

Let’s just leave it at that.

 

[KSU]

No, economic injustice does not flourish in America, unless you’re talking about the effect of liberal/left policies which have created more poor people. Once we get rid of the Obama regime, I have more hope that economic opportunity will again flourish like it has in the past. Economic injustice probably does in other countries - such as Argentina, where the Pope is from.

Ishii

 

[TEPO]

Not everything Pope Francis says applies to America. Most countries, in fact are nothing at all similar to America… To think that the Popes comments taken out of context apply directly to the United States is vanity.

…the world really doesn’t revolve around the U.S.

 

[freeRadical]

So you’re telling me that economic injustice does not exist in America and you deign to translate the Pope’s word to unclean, Catholic Social Justice advocates like myself? Wow…

No, economic injustice (whatever that means) does not exist in the US, despite the Lefts attempts to make it so. I don’t know what economic justice or injustice is but I’ll tell you which countries have a lack of economic opportunity for the poor: China, Russia, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Argentina, etc. Capitalism has done more for the poor then any government could ever hope to achieve.

 

[Silvio_Dante]

Liberation theology is a form of Marxism, pure and simple.

I don’t know where we can go further with this. Pope Francis says he is not a Marxist. I can only assume he is not lying when he says so.

Catholic Socialism is keeping the Church alive for the voiceless and dispossessed in the Third World. We, in our elite, Western societies have no clue about the injustices inflicted on these people at the hand of our greed driven, Capitalist hegemonies.

Pope Francis has seen, directly the pain and loss caused and has in his heart an over riding compassion for these people, as do LT followers.

We have far more in common with Pope Francis that what divides us. How about you…?

 

[Silvio_Dante]

I am always in agreement with all of the popes. The problem is the way the Left twists what the popes have said. This side splitter for example: “socialism and communism are erroneous reactions to the injustices of the capitalist, or ‘neoliberal’ system.”; or this whopper: “It is important to note that LT [Liberation Theology] plays a huge and wonderful part in the Third World Church.”

Let’s just leave it at that.

You’re free to leave the discussion whenever you run out of justifications for economic slavery of the Third World…

 

[Silvio_Dante]

That’s great to advocate for the poor. You should also learn more about economics - specifically the economic policies which, while ostensibly designed to help the poor, actually hurt the poor.

So a 2 buck an hour job in a Restaurant, depending on tips to make an existence wage is helping the poor.

I mean how dare they look up from thee gutter, look at the stars and dream of better days. They should know their place and keep the wheels of the glorious ‘Free Market’ turning so that their betters can continue to rape the planet’s resources for their own ends.

God bless the Market roulette wheel…

 

[Filii_Dei]

It’s nice to hear everybody’s polemics about what is insufficient or excessive, but I think it would be good to have some real-world points of reference. Perhaps somebody could help to characterise the economic system of Singapore, for example?

 

[Silvio_Dante]

No, economic injustice (whatever that means) does not exist in the US, despite the Lefts attempts to make it so. I don’t know what economic justice or injustice is but I’ll tell you which countries have a lack of economic opportunity for the poor: China, Russia, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Argentina, etc. Capitalism has done more for the poor then any government could ever hope to achieve.

Does it have to be either/or…?

Seriously people. open your minds and get your heads out of the Cold War.

Progressive economic policies exist and have done so for many decades in Europe where people pay their fair share in taxes and it creates a social justice model where no one should ever have to sleep on the streets, live in hunger or work three jobs to pay the rent.

That is not to say we live in a utopia. But at least we strive for a equality of opportunity, education, healthcare and political achievement…

 

[JackyB]

You’re free to leave the discussion whenever you run out of justifications for economic slavery of the Third World…

Having lived in many countries in the Third World as you obviously have I cannot agree with you deductions. The Third World is desperate IMO for capitalism, South Africa is a beacon for the rest of the continent especially when compared to its neighbour Zimbabwe , what the Third World does not need is more pseudo hand wringing from western liberals over the false imaginings of why they are poor.

 

[Silvio_Dante]

Having lived in many countries in the Third World as you obviously have I cannot agree with you deductions. The Third World is desperate IMO for capitalism, South Africa is a beacon for the rest of the continent especially when compared to its neighbour Zimbabwe , what the Third World does not need is more pseudo hand wringing from western liberals over the false imaginings of why they are poor.

I’m not against foreign Capital going into Third World economies. However there must be strict and believable regulations around it with a social dividend for the poor at its core.

Again people mention boogie men like the lunatic Mugabe. Why so stark. There is a world of middle ground to be explored and used for mutual beneficial rewards.

I’d not be citing S Africa as a beacon to be honest. The ANC has become the monster it once deplored. Thanks to foreign dollars, corruption has reigned supreme and engulfs every strata of life.

While poor and oppressed miners are shot down in cold blood by Government forces when they strike for humane working conditions…

 

[stinkcat_14]

No, what helped cause this recession was the government meddling in the housing market - specifically the Community Reinvestment Act which which forced lending institutions to lend to people who couldn’t afford a house.

Except for the fact that only a small percentage of the mortgages were originated by depository institutions in relation to the CRA. If this was just a crisis of lending to poor people we would have recovered from it by now. But the CRA does not require banks to originate jumbo mortgages, because poor people by definition do not qualify for jumbos in any way. It also does not explain why mortgage bankers who were not subject to the CRA originated so many bad mortgages. The better explanation was greed. Lenders focused on short term profits at the expense of the long run. Borrowers were overly optimistic. The financial crisis was greed run amok.

 

[estesbob]

I’m not against foreign Capital going into Third World economies. However there must be strict and believable regulations around it with a social dividend for the poor at its core.

Again people mention boogie men like the lunatic Mugabe. Why so stark. There is a world of middle ground to be explored and used for mutual beneficial rewards.

I’d not be citing S Africa as a beacon to be honest. The ANC has become the monster it once deplored. Thanks to foreign dollars, corruption has reigned supreme and engulfs every strata of life.

While poor and oppressed miners are shot down in cold blood by Government forces when they strike for humane working conditions…

So the money earned by a free and open market must be heavily regulated when invested in poor countries? No wonder theyre poor

 

[estesbob]

Except for the fact that only a small percentage of the mortgages were originated by depository institutions in relation to the CRA. If this was just a crisis of lending to poor people we would have recovered from it by now. But the CRA does not require banks to originate jumbo mortgages, because poor people by definition do not qualify for jumbos in any way. It also does not explain why mortgage bankers who were not subject to the CRA originated so many bad mortgages. The better explanation was greed. Lenders focused on short term profits at the expense of the long run. Borrowers were overly optimistic. The financial crisis was greed run amok.

And the banks were able to bundle up the loans and sell them off. It didn’t matter to them if they went bad or not.