Pope Francis denounces ‘trickle-down’ economic theories in critique of inequality

[CrossofChrist]

As for the popes denouncing “neoliberalism”, America is not yet a Banana Republic, so you must mean Latin America:

Yes.

To see what I mean, let’s look at this quote from Pope Benedict (note that this is addressed to Latin American bishops):

Both capitalism and Marxism promised to point out the path for the creation of just structures, and they declared that these, once established, would function by themselves; they declared that not only would they have no need of any prior individual morality, but that they would promote a communal morality. And this ideological promise has been proved false. The facts have clearly demonstrated it.

Is that really all that different from this excerpt from Evangelii Gaudium?

54. In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system.

And again from Pope Francis’ interview to clarify his position:

*There was the promise that when the glass was full, it would be transferred over and the poor would benefit from it. Instead what happens when it is full to the brim, the glass magically grows, and thus nothing comes forth for the poor. *

All Pope Francis seems to be doing IMO is expanding on Pope Benedict, focusing on the capitalism aspect rather than the Marxist part.

At least I got you to admit that Pope Francis was not condemning American Conservatism

No he wasn’t. At least as far as most conservatives are concerned.

I maintain Pope Francis was not getting into a political debate he shouldn’t have gotten involved in; he was critiquing a lack of morality within a capitalist economy.

 

[KSU]

As I’ve pointed out before, “crony capitalism” is the capitalist system administered by those one doesn’t like politically. I wager that all talk of “crony capitalism” on the right will cease once another Republican is elected president.

I wish I knew what “Conservative America” was – apart from an ideological construct.

In my very long observation of and employment by government, crony capitalism when practiced by the Right generally meant that Uncle Joe got a government job or even a contract. But, when practiced by the Left, especially the current regime, it ALSO meant raw political corruption such as the IRS scandal, and Solyndra abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/07/obama-fundraises-with-players-in-solyndra-scandal/ , and the long-ago established legal but nonetheless corrupt arrangement between big unions and Democrats whereby workers and consumers finance one political party. The latter, I believe, is partly what Pope Francis condemned because money and power, not the welfare of workers, is its reason for being.

You say you wish you knew what Conservative America was.

First, it is not what Francis was condemning in EVANGELII GAUDIUM because it is generally Christian, anti-abortion, anti-Socialist, extremely compassionate and generous. Second, it is not destructive to the the traditional American family by actively pushing contraception, homosexuality and abortion, even in schools. Third, it does not fear and prohibit the mere symbols of Christianity and Divinity in the public square.

Conservative America is the old Silent Majority. Before that it built magnificent cathedrals and established schools, orphanages, and homes for pregnant and abused women–all with private contributions. And before that it escaped countries that persecuted it, and came to America because only America guarantied protection of God-given rights, as opposed to government-given rights (such as symbols of Christianity and Divinity in the public square).

That, gnjsdad, is not all it is, but you get the idea.

 

[KSU]

It is worthwhile pointing out again that the title of this thread is not supported by the popes actual words.
People use the pope in order to justify their own political and economic ideologies. The same tendencies also happen with people who project Jesus himself as being a liberal like them, or a conservative like them.
The popes themselves are apolitical and speak in broad generalities in order to maintain a semblance of neutrality. Whichever type of economic system that we are under, we are to bring our Christian values into our own dealings with others. That is about the sum of what we can glean from any papal message on the economy.

Darryl, I know what you mean, but it cannot be said that “The popes themselves are apolitical and speak in broad generalities in order to maintain a semblance of neutrality.” Below are just the opening examples in my post #573 (continued in posts 574 and 575) which demonstrate that popes can get very politically specific when necessary:

PIUS IX (1846-1878):
“Overthrow [of] the entire order of human affairs”
“You are aware indeed, that the goal of this most iniquitous plot is to drive people to overthrow the entire order of human affairs and to draw them over to the wicked theories of this Socialism and Communism, by confusing them with perverted teachings.” (Encyclical Nostis et Nobiscum, December 8, 1849)

LEO XIII (1878-1903):
Hideous monster
“…communism, socialism, nihilism, hideous deformities of the civil society of men and almost its ruin.” (Encyclical Diuturnum, June 29, 1881)

Ruin of all institutions
“… For, the fear of God and reverence for divine laws being taken away, the authority of rulers despised, sedition permitted and approved, and the popular passions urged on to lawlessness, with no restraint save that of punishment, a change and overthrow of all things will necessarily follow. Yea, this change and overthrow is deliberately planned and put forward by many associations of communists and socialists” (Encyclical Humanum Genus, April 20, 1884, n. 27).

A sect “that threatens civil society with destruction”

Leo XIII (1877-1903): Socialists assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law.
“…We speak of that sect of men who, under various and almost barbarous names, are called socialists, communists, or nihilists, and who, spread over all the world, and bound together by the closest ties in a wicked confederacy, no longer seek the shelter of secret meetings, but, openly and boldly marching forth in the light of day, strive to bring to a head what they have long been planning - the overthrow of all civil society whatsoever. Surely, these are they who, as the sacred Scriptures testify, ‘Defile the flesh, despise dominion and blaspheme majesty.’ (Jud. 8).” (Encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris, December 28, 1878, n. 1)

Socialists debase the natural union of man and woman and assail the right of property
“They [socialists, communists, or nihilists] debase the natural union of man and woman, which is held sacred even among barbarous peoples; and its bond, by which the family is chiefly held together, they weaken, or even deliver up to lust. Lured, in fine, by the greed of present goods, which is ‘the root of all evils, which some coveting have erred from the faith’ (1 Tim. 6:10.3), they assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law; and by a scheme of horrible wickedness, while they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title of lawful inheritance, or by labor of brain and hands, or by thrift in one’s mode of life.” (Encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris, December 28, 1878, n. 1)

Destructive sect
“…socialists and members of other seditious societies, who labor unceasingly to destroy the State even to its foundations.” (Encyclical Libertas Praestantissimum, June 20, 1888)

 

[Darryl1958]

I see your point, but Popes are influenced by a variety of factors which could be said to shape outlook and perspective. Such factors can change what a Pope might emphasize, or which words they use. For example, Pope John Paul 2 could be said to have been influenced from his experience living in a country that was totalitarian communist, Pope Benedict by living under a Nazi dictatorship and later living in a country divided between free and communist. It is not hard to understand why Pope Francis, having lived under the particular kind of system in Argentina - where there were/are stark inequalities - has so far emphasized the deficiencies in the capitalist systems where it is practiced in certain places around the world. I believe that ideologues will take advantage of the Pope’s words to gain support and justification for beliefs that the Pope has not necessarily endorsed. Conversely, other ideologues have been critical of the Pope without first looking at the context in which he makes his statements. Of course, the clear understanding of the Pope’s words is not served by translations that use politically loaded buzzwords such as “trickle down economics.”

Ishii

There is a lot that is lacking in the way that South American economies have evolved. From what I have been able to piece together, there is a very tiny, very rich ruling class, and a very large, impoverished mass of people being ruled over. This would be the kind of system that would exist in Europe and America still, if the economic revolutions that saw the rise of an entrepreneurial middle class had not taken place.

I think that this is the kind of economy that predominates in South America and Africa, with a few exceptions such as maybe Chile. It is the kind of economy that is being moved away from albeit tentatively in many Asian economies such as India, China, Thailand, and the little ‘tiger’ economies there, many of which have already moved into first world wealth with strong and healthy middle classes.

It is less relevant to the economies of Europe and North America, in which sustainability is a bigger concern.

I do think you are on to something by noticing where the current pope is from. The Catholic world is becoming less and less Euro-centric, and the heart of the Catholic world is shifting to South American and Africa, where income disparity defines the economies, and mires those economies in severe inefficiencies, corruption and poverty.
It would seem to me as well that the ways that the first world interacts with this emerging Catholic world, in either South America or Africa, has been chronically deficient in changing the way things transpire. On the one hand, there are those forces which serve to shore up the oligarchies; on the other there are those that foment revolution against the oligarchies, which inevitably leads to the balance of power passing to another powerful oligarchy, or the complete ruination of the economy.
In South America in particular, this is a uniquely Catholic problem, for the formations of the oligarchies there, as in Franco’s Spain, are intricately associated with the institutional Church itself. They are economies caught in a type of time warp, where the evolution of the modern economies of either North America and Europe, have passed them by. We would be hard pressed to find a model that might work for them, and enable some social movement of the lower class into something other than absolute poverty.

Popes, being popes, tend to see everything through the lens of morality. Morality define the world of popes and bishops after all.

Maybe though, the problem is not that people are not Catholic enough, or good enough, or generous enough, or giving enough. Perhaps the problem is not moral at all.
Perhaps the solutions lie not in people becoming better, but in certain technical changes to the economies themselves.

For example, the Tunisian spark that set off the Arab Spring demonstrated that what the shopkeeper was most frustrated at was how the forces of government itself that was keeping him from getting ahead.
Not just government corruption, but masses of red tape are keeping the budding entrepreneurial classes from growing, but instead are choking them to death.

That is one problem that does not have a moral solution, but a technical one.

 

[KSU]

There is a lot that is lacking in the way that South American economies have evolved. From what I have been able to piece together, there is a very tiny, very rich ruling class, and a very large, impoverished mass of people being ruled over. This would be the kind of system that would exist in Europe and America still, if the economic revolutions that saw the rise of an entrepreneurial middle class had not taken place.

I think that this is the kind of economy that predominates in South America and Africa, with a few exceptions such as maybe Chile. It is the kind of economy that is being moved away from albeit tentatively in many Asian economies such as India, China, Thailand, and the little ‘tiger’ economies there, many of which have already moved into first world wealth with strong and healthy middle classes.

It is less relevant to the economies of Europe and North America, in which sustainability is a bigger concern.

I do think you are on to something by noticing where the current pope is from. The Catholic world is becoming less and less Euro-centric, and the heart of the Catholic world is shifting to South American and Africa, where income disparity defines the economies, and mires those economies in severe inefficiencies, corruption and poverty.
It would seem to me as well that the ways that the first world interacts with this emerging Catholic world, in either South America or Africa, has been chronically deficient in changing the way things transpire. On the one hand, there are those forces which serve to shore up the oligarchies; on the other there are those that foment revolution against the oligarchies, which inevitably leads to the balance of power passing to another powerful oligarchy, or the complete ruination of the economy.
In South America in particular, this is a uniquely Catholic problem, for the formations of the oligarchies there, as in Franco’s Spain, are intricately associated with the institutional Church itself. They are economies caught in a type of time warp, where the evolution of the modern economies of either North America and Europe, have passed them by. We would be hard pressed to find a model that might work for them, and enable some social movement of the lower class into something other than absolute poverty.

Popes, being popes, tend to see everything through the lens of morality. Morality define the world of popes and bishops after all.

Maybe though, the problem is not that people are not Catholic enough, or good enough, or generous enough, or giving enough. Perhaps the problem is not moral at all.
Perhaps the solutions lie not in people becoming better, but in certain technical changes to the economies themselves.

For example, the Tunisian spark that set off the Arab Spring demonstrated that what the shopkeeper was most frustrated at was how the forces of government itself that was keeping him from getting ahead.
Not just government corruption, but masses of red tape are keeping the budding entrepreneurial classes from growing, but instead are choking them to death.

That is one problem that does not have a moral solution, but a technical one.

Nice summary:thumbsup:. I don’t have your depth of knowledge about it, but it confirms my layman’s impression. Would you agree that Liberation Theology exacerbated the problem?

 

[Darryl1958]

Nice summary:thumbsup:. I don’t have your depth of knowledge about it, but it confirms my layman’s impression. Would you agree that Liberation Theology exacerbated the problem?

The one person that knew exactly what this liberation theology led to was JPII, and he was horrified by it.
I consider liberation theology in all itsguises to be an abomination. It ia based in envy, and envy empowers only those who would manipulate the vulnerability of the poor to serve their own political purposes.

Oh, and while I love to be praised, and thank you for doing so, I see you as one of several here who make Catholic Answers a very uplifting experience in general.

 

[KSU]

Darryl, thanks for that late Christmas gift; the best kind.

 

[Silvio_Dante]

This astounding document should be a clarion call to Catholics of all political stripes. The exhortation reaffirms the right of life for the unborn, all the while encouraging Catholics to support struggling mothers. He attacks the false worship of money in our consumeristic culture. There is so much more within that I am exhausted with joy thinking of it.

Republican Catholics and Democratic Catholics should feel a sense of change with their secular affiliations after this papal message.

Well said.

Pope Francis, the Compassionate, leaves us in no doubt regarding his disdain for the culture of greed and injustice that Capitalism has brought to this planet and isn’t shy in denouncing it from the rooftops.

What a legend…

 

[ReConverted]

Well said.

Pope Francis, the Compassionate, leaves us in no doubt regarding his disdain for the culture of greed and injustice that Capitalism has brought to this planet and isn’t shy in denouncing it from the rooftops.

What a legend…

Many happy and productive years to Papa Francesco! Viva il Papa!

 

[ReConverted]

Hoo boy! Pope Francis talks about capitalism, and we end up with over 1,000 posts! Hilarious!

Do we have a thread that comments on hunger that goes for over 1,000 posts? I’ll be happy if we do.

 

[ishii]

Hoo boy! Pope Francis talks about capitalism, and we end up with over 1,000 posts! Hilarious!

Do we have a thread that comments on hunger that goes for over 1,000 posts? I’ll be happy if we do.

With all due respect, much of this thread has been devoted to trying to prevent others from distorting what the Pope said in order to further narrow-minded ideological/partisan points. From looking at the last few posts here, I can see the distorting continues.

Ishii

 

[Silvio_Dante]

With all due respect, much of this thread has been devoted to trying to prevent others from distorting what the Pope said in order to further narrow-minded ideological/partisan points. From looking at the last few posts here, I can see the distorting continues.

Ishii

So you see yourself as some form of translator for the Pope?

With all due respect I’ll take my guidance from Christ’s shepherd on Earth, directly. No offence or anything…

 

[KSU]

Hoo boy! Pope Francis talks about capitalism, and we end up with over 1,000 posts! Hilarious!

Do we have a thread that comments on hunger that goes for over 1,000 posts? I’ll be happy if we do.

You want 1,000 posts about hunger, then start a new thread to discus this , “For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, If any will not work, neither let him eat.”

But, unlike Socialist systems where starvation is seen as a political tool, the American Capitalist system won’t permit even hunger, so:

"Since the beginning of the War on Poverty, government has spent $16.7 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2008 dollars) on means-tested welfare. In comparison, all the military wars in U.S. history have cost a total of $6.4 trillion (also in inflation-adjusted 2008 dollars)."http://nationalreview.com/articles/229326/losing-war/robert-rector

What has happened to poverty in America as a result of the “war” against it? Poverty, abortion and fatherless families have increased, as expected–when something is subsidized for political (not humane) purposes, of course it increases. THAT is political success in many circles, and as sure as the Lord made little green apples, it’s not Capitalism attacked by the pope. He never even mentioned Capitalism.

Nevertheless, some folk try to make us believe that Pope Francis was condemning American Capitalism, rather than systems that increase poverty, abortion and destruction of families.

 

[Silvio_Dante]

Nevertheless, some folk try to make us believe that Pope Francis was condemning American Capitalism, rather than systems that increase poverty, abortion and destruction of families.

Pope Francis was crystal clear in his disgust for any political system that allows economic injustice to flourish. He did not name any particular country.

However, here is a little test for you. In America, does your political system allow economic injustice to flourish…?

 

[KSU]

Pope Francis was crystal clear in his disgust for any political system that allows economic injustice to flourish. He did not name any particular country.

However, here is a little test for you. In America, does your political system allow economic injustice to flourish…?

Of course. But the voters have finally caught on.

 

[Silvio_Dante]

Of course. But the voters have finally caught on.

So you are in agreement with the Pope?

Whats the problem…?

 

[gnjsdad]

Darryl, I know what you mean, but it cannot be said that “The popes themselves are apolitical and speak in broad generalities in order to maintain a semblance of neutrality.” Below are just the opening examples in my post #573 (continued in posts 574 and 575) which demonstrate that popes can get very politically specific when necessary:

The horse must be put before the cart.

One note of context it is absolutely vital to remember: all of the Papal denunciations of socialism and communism you posted point to socialism and communism as erroneous reactions to the injustices of the capitalist, or “neoliberal” system.

I think it’s safe to say: were it not for the injustices inherent in capitalism (injustices which Pope Francis is beginning to draw attention to), there would have been no socialist reaction.

 

[ishii]

So you see yourself as some form of translator for the Pope?

With all due respect I’ll take my guidance from Christ’s shepherd on Earth, directly. No offence or anything…

When did the Pope use the words “trickle down economics” ? He didn’t. But there is no shortage of ideologues that will twist what he says to serve their own partisan ends.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

Pope Francis was crystal clear in his disgust for any political system that allows economic injustice to flourish. He did not name any particular country.

However, here is a little test for you. In America, does your political system allow economic injustice to flourish…?

No, economic injustice does not flourish in America, unless you’re talking about the effect of liberal/left policies which have created more poor people. Once we get rid of the Obama regime, I have more hope that economic opportunity will again flourish like it has in the past. Economic injustice probably does in other countries - such as Argentina, where the Pope is from.

Ishii

 

[Silvio_Dante]

No, economic injustice does not flourish in America, unless you’re talking about the effect of liberal/left policies which have created more poor people. Once we get rid of the Obama regime, I have more hope that economic opportunity will again flourish like it has in the past. Economic injustice probably does in other countries - such as Argentina, where the Pope is from.

Ishii

So you’re telling me that economic injustice does not exist in America and you deign to translate the Pope’s word to unclean, Catholic Social Justice advocates like myself? Wow…