Pope Francis denounces ‘trickle-down’ economic theories in critique of inequality

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estesbob said:
And the banks were able to bundle up the loans and sell them off. It didn’t matter to them if they went bad or not.
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True, but that was not the claim. The claim was that the financial crisis was caused by the government forcing banks to make bad loans.
 
ProVobis said:
And now they’re working on doing that all over again.

Short memories by many.
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The one thing we can count on is that financial institutions are lemmings. If one goes over the cliff, they all tend to go over the cliff. After they all go over the cliff, they will probably claim the government made them do it.
 
KSU said:
I am always in agreement with all of the popes. The problem is the way the Left twists what the popes have said. This side splitter for example: “socialism and communism are erroneous reactions to the injustices of the capitalist, or ‘neoliberal’ system.”;
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This “side splitter” comes from the very beginning of Rerum Novarum, the first Papal encyclical delaing directly with the condition of labor.

*In any case we clearly see, and on this there is general agreement, that some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class: for the ancient workingmen’s guilds were abolished in the last century, and no other protective organization took their place. Public institutions and the laws set aside the ancient religion. **Hence, by degrees it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition. The mischief has been increased by rapacious usury, which, although more than once condemned by the Church, is nevertheless, under a different guise, but with like injustice, still practiced by covetous and grasping men. To this must be added that the hiring of labor and the conduct of trade are concentrated in the hands of comparatively few; so that a small number of very rich men have been able to lay upon the teeming masses of the laboring poor a yoke little better than that of slavery itself. (my emphasis) ***

*4. To remedy these wrongs the socialists, working on the poor man’s envy of the rich, are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies. They hold that by thus transferring property from private individuals to the community, the present mischievous state of things will be set to rights, inasmuch as each citizen will then get his fair share of whatever there is to enjoy. But their contentions are so clearly powerless to end the controversy that were they carried into effect the working man himself would be among the first to suffer. They are, moreover, emphatically unjust, for they would rob the lawful possessor, distort the functions of the State, and create utter confusion in the community. *

It could not be more clear that the Church condemns the socialist REACTION to the excesses of the capitalist system. Some side-splitter. You may agree with all the popes, but your characterization of what has been said in Rerum Novarum as a “side splitter”, something to laugh at and not take seriously, shows you haven’t grasped the full meaning of what’s been said.
 
Silvio_Dante said:
Catholic Socialism is keeping the Church alive for the voiceless and dispossessed in the Third World. We, in our elite, Western societies have no clue about the injustices inflicted on these people at the hand of our greed driven, Capitalist hegemonies.

Pope Francis has seen, directly the pain and loss caused and has in his heart an over riding compassion for these people, as do LT followers.

We have far more in common with Pope Francis that what divides us. How about you…?
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I have nothing in common with Marxists, who have inflicted pain and suffering and ruined economies on people wherever they have risen to power. In terms of sheer numbers,
Marxism has been a much greater bane on human existence than even fascism could ever claim to be.

I have no reason to presume that Pope Francis is a liar when he says he is not a Marxist either.

But Liberation Theology is Marxism, and suffice to say, it turns my stomach as much as it turned the stomach of John Paul II. As a Pole living in the twentieth century, his was a visceral reaction against a system as pathetic as it is evil.

Hopefully, I have made my position clear enough this time?
 
An analysis of liberation
socialism and communism are erroneous reactions to the injustices of the capitalist, or ‘neoliberal’ system.
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That’s true so long as one doesn’t take it to mean that injustices are inherent in a capitalist system.
It is important to note that LT [Liberation Theology] plays a huge and wonderful part in the Third World Church."
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A wonderful part? Really?

Granted, “liberation theology” is very ambiguous. Here is a relevant part from the link above:

*5. The different theologies of liberation are situated between the ‘preferential option for the poor’, forcefully reaffirmed without ambiguity after Medellin at the Conference of ‘Puebla’ [19] on the one hand, and the temptation to reduce the Gospel to an earthly gospel on the other. We should recall that the preferential option described at ‘Puebla’ is two-fold: for the poor and ‘for the young’. [21] It is significant that the option for the young has in general been passed over in total silence.
  1. We noted above (cf. 3) that an authentic theology of liberation will be one which is rooted in the Word of God, correctly interpreted.
  2. But from a descriptive standpoint, it helps to speak of ‘theologies’ of liberation, since the expression embraces a number of theological positions, or even sometimes ideological ones, which are not simply different but more often incompatible with one another.*
But, “Liberation Theology” usually is used in reference to a Marxist ideology that disregards the importance of the Gospel. So much is this ideology cut off from Jesus that it views the Passion of Christ in terms of politics, as well as the teaching of the Magisterium. This inevitably leads to a false view of who Jesus is and of the Church Jesus gave us, claiming the “historical Jesus” is different from the “divine Jesus”.

In short, LT turns the Church into an NGO, and to quote Pope Francis, “The Church is neither a political movement nor a well-organized structure. That is not what she is. We are not an NGO, and when the Church becomes an NGO she loses her salt, she has no savour, she is only an empty organization.”

“When we do not profess Jesus Christ, the saying of Léon Bloy comes to mind: “Anyone who does not pray to the Lord prays to the devil.” When we do not profess Jesus Christ, we profess the worldliness of the devil, a demonic worldliness.” This “is what de Lubac called spiritual worldliness” and is “self-centered”.
 
Silvio_Dante said:
So a 2 buck an hour job in a Restaurant, depending on tips to make an existence wage is helping the poor.

I mean how dare they look up from thee gutter, look at the stars and dream of better days. They should know their place and keep the wheels of the glorious ‘Free Market’ turning so that their betters can continue to rape the planet’s resources for their own ends.

God bless the Market roulette wheel…
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The free market - when allowed to do so, provides economic opportunity for all willing to take advantage of it. The restaurant jobs where I live start at minimum wage + tips - and is one of the ways those without a college education or job skills can make a living wage. Not sure where you are living …

Btw, the correct quote is: “we are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” I think Oscar Wilde was referring to something other than economics when he wrote that.

Ishii
 
Silvio_Dante said:
Catholic Socialism is keeping the Church alive for the voiceless and dispossessed in the Third World. We, in our elite, Western societies have no clue about the injustices inflicted on these people at the hand of our greed driven, Capitalist hegemonies.
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Silvio - you might do well to read up on the history of Argentina - how it was poised to become a prosperous country and how they blew it (hint: it wasn’t because of the greed of western nations). You can find an account of this in Paul Johnson’s excellent book Modern Times. During the 1940’s Argentina was poised to reach the economic level of the west - with a rising middle class, free-press (something you don’t see in leftist countries) and a market economy. Then Juan Peron took over. Here is a blurb:

“As president, Peron gave a classic demonstration, in the name of socialism and nationalism, of how to wreck an economy.”

Of course, Silvio - to understand this, you would have to take off your liberation theology shades and read with an open mind. If you’re interested in a different perspective from your own, check it out. Otherwise, stick with your LT mantra.

Ishii
 
estesbob said:
So the money earned by a free and open market must be heavily regulated when invested in poor countries? No wonder theyre poor
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The massive riches made in Third World countries should be heavily taxed and the funds be directed for the good of the citizens, the vast majority of whom live below the poverty line…
 
Darryl1958 said:
I have nothing in common with Marxists, who have inflicted pain and suffering and ruined economies on people wherever they have risen to power. In terms of sheer numbers,
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Do a little research on LT and its effects on dispossessed communities throughout Latin America and show me one, just one, example where the good Jesuit Priests have inflicted pain, suffering or ruined a local economy.

Until then your lies hold no water here…
 
ishii said:
Silvio - you might do well to read up on the history of Argentina - how it was poised to become a prosperous country and how they blew it (hint: it wasn’t because of the greed of western nations). You can find an account of this in Paul Johnson’s excellent book Modern Times. During the 1940’s Argentina was poised to reach the economic level of the west - with a rising middle class, free-press (something you don’t see in leftist countries) and a market economy. Then Juan Peron took over. Here is a blurb:

“As president, Peron gave a classic demonstration, in the name of socialism and nationalism, of how to wreck an economy.”

Of course, Silvio - to understand this, you would have to take off your liberation theology shades and read with an open mind. If you’re interested in a different perspective from your own, check it out. Otherwise, stick with your LT mantra.

Ishii
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It doesn’t get more condescending than that. Physician heal thyself…
 
ishii said:
The free market - when allowed to do so, provides economic opportunity for all willing to take advantage of it.
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Open your eyes dude.

Army Vets sleeping rough in American cities and waiting to die to take themselves out of their misery in the country they put their lives on the line for.

Children rummaging through open sewers for food to feed their families in Calcutta.

The more liberal the open market is, the more savagery is inflicted on the poor and dispossessed…
 
Silvio_Dante said:
Do a little research on LT and its effects on dispossessed communities throughout Latin America and show me one, just one, example where the good Jesuit Priests have inflicted pain, suffering or ruined a local economy.

Until then your lies hold no water here…
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Because I don’t believe in Marxism, and Marxism has ruined economies and lives wherever it has been put into place, I con’t believe in Liberation Theology in any of its guises. It is a spiritual cancer that feeds upon the beliefs of third world Catholics and can only offer despair if it is ever applied to the running of an economy

Liberation Theology is a form of Marxism, and its effects have been by far the greatest evil ever unleashed upon people on earth for all of world history.

I concur with John Paul II on this, and presume that Pope Francis is not lying either when he said that he is not a Marxist.
 
estesbob said:
So the money earned by a free and open market must be heavily regulated when invested in poor countries? No wonder theyre poor
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Like the comedian Pat Paulson once said when he was running for President, “My opponent proposes spending $27 billion more on poverty. Frankly I think we have enough poverty already.”
 
estesbob said:
When/where he’d that ever worked?
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Ever been to Scandinavia? The highest Tax rates on the planet and the most compassionate Welfare system to go with it. Oh and guess what. Poverty statistics are the lowest in the OECD…
 
Silvio_Dante said:
Open your eyes dude.

Army Vets sleeping rough in American cities and waiting to die to take themselves out of their misery in the country they put their lives on the line for.

Children rummaging through open sewers for food to feed their families in Calcutta.

The more liberal the open market is, the more savagery is inflicted on the poor and dispossessed…
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Read some history, dude: Until this century, India had a socialist economic system. While reforms have improved things somewhat, it is very difficult to unscramble an egg. Also, the caste system of India, and the existence of “untouchables” probably goes a long way to explain the kids rummaging through open sewers for food. Mother Teresa worked her life in Calcutta helping the poor - I don’t recall her calling for socialism and liberation theology.

Nice try though, Silvio.

Ishii
 
Silvio_Dante said:
Ever been to Scandinavia? The highest Tax rates on the planet and the most compassionate Welfare system to go with it. Oh and guess what. Poverty statistics are the lowest in the OECD…
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What a coincidence - the poverty statistics among Scandinavians living in the US are very low too!

Ishii
 
ishii said:
Read some history, dude: Until this century, India had a socialist economic system. While reforms have improved things somewhat, it is very difficult to unscramble an egg. Also, the caste system of India, and the existence of “untouchables” probably goes a long way to explain the kids rummaging through open sewers for food. Mother Teresa worked her life in Calcutta helping the poor - I don’t recall her calling for socialism and liberation theology.

Nice try though, Silvio.

Ishii
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Look. India is a Capitalist’s amusement park. Huge riches to be gained on the backs of the people. Multi-nationals are given free reign to impose their regimes greed and de-humanisation.

All the while families are prostituting their children, selling organs and living off garbage tips. Yeah. God loves the Free Market…
 
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