Pope Francis denounces ‘trickle-down’ economic theories in critique of inequality

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Yet another fallacy promoted by greed. There is plenty to go around.
It has nothing to do with how plenty there is to go around. The Fed can always print more if there isn’t enough money. In fact, if you want, you can suggest $100 an hour and bonuses to boot, would that be plenty enough? Uncle Ben is just ready to drop it out of his helicopter.
 
So if the babysitter is a single mother of two she should be paid $15 an hour? And even more if the parents own a yacht?
I worked as a nanny in college. I was there from when the kids got home from school until the mom got home every day. She paid me very well. Her reasoning was that I was he person taking care of her children and she wanted me to be loyal to her - always on time and contientious. She didn’t want me to think of it as the kind of job that didn’t matter or that I would quit at a moments notice. I used the same philosophy years later when I paid my child care provider.

As people who believe strongly on families and in mothers caring for their own children, it be hooves us to create a society that supports mothers and that supports good childcare for those mothers who do work.

Minimum wage laws are not the focus then. The question is structuring society to value children and families. What can we as Catholics do to improve that?
 
Yes, in that case, she should receive minimum wage. It’s not so difficult as you are trying to make it out to be. It’s known as basic decency. I realize that it won’t pay for a closet full of $3,000 shoes. But it will buy a pound of hamburger and some veges for many kids.
So people should be paid based on the number of dependents they have, the size of their employers yacht and the number of shoes the employer owns?
 
It has nothing to do with how plenty there is to go around. The Fed can always print more if there isn’t enough money. In fact, if you want, you can suggest $100 an hour and bonuses to boot, would that be plenty enough? Uncle Ben is just ready to drop it out of his helicopter.
I don’t understand your point. Sorry.
 
Actually, your statement is a fallacy. If you taxed everybody at 100%, we would still have a deficit.
huh? who said anything about taxation? if you want to divert the discussion to the Federal budget, then it is pretty clear that if we got rid of the corruption and pork, and the wasted military spending (speaking as a former Marine), that there is plenty to provide basic needs. Does the NSA need billions or trillions to warehouse worldwide cellular calls which they have no resources to even analyze? The situation is absurd, as Pope Francis has pointed out. But the absurdity of our government spending is another, yet important topic, particularly in the sense that the voter has lost control of the legislature, as the business interests have gained increasing control.
 
Yes, in that case, she should receive minimum wage. It’s not so difficult as you are trying to make it out to be. It’s known as basic decency. I realize that it won’t pay for a closet full of $3,000 shoes. But it will buy a pound of hamburger and some veges for many kids.
So the person who is making minimum wage should also pay the babysitter minimum wage?

If so, they why would the first person work those hours at all, every cent they make is then being turned over to the babysitter.
 
huh? who said anything about taxation? if you want to divert the discussion to the Federal budget, then it is pretty clear that if we got rid of the corruption and pork, and the wasted military spending (speaking as a former Marine), that there is plenty to provide basic needs.
The government will never get rid of corruption and pork, however you define them. (Don’t forget, that pork is income to someone.) And the military is here to stay. But how does that impair the fact that the Fed can print enough money for everyone to be paid at least $100 an hour plus bonuses?

I don’t think people are aware of how monetary expansion and contraction work.
 
I really have to shake my head at the demagoguery that goes on in threads like these. I primarily work with small businesses, and small business jobs represent half of private sector jobs.

There is a tendency among many to talk about fat cats with their yachts, but the fact is, a huge chunk of job-makers are struggling themselves. I work with these people, men and women who own single shops, small service businesses, etc. Many of them are immigrants themselves, who have never gone to college. Small business owners are quite possibly the hardest working people I know, because they pour their heart, along with their hopes and dreams, into their trades, for hopes of better futures for their kids.

For example, one particular small business owner that I know well (a man in his mid-50’s) has been living in a three-bedroom house with five other men until his business gets on its feet. His wife lives in another state, because she can’t quit her own job in this economy, and the opportunity he got was location-specific. They have phone dates every night. Thankfully, their kids are grown and moved out of the house.

I could tell you many other examples like this, but my point is to implore people to stop framing employers of minimum wage jobs simply as greedy corporate tycoons. Many of them are struggling themselves.
 
Become part of a religious (nun, monk) community? 😉
This is the quintessential Catholic answer, in all seriousness. Chastity and virginity and poverty are the Catholic way. Family values are the less preferred second choice, only for those who find themselves without any sort of sufficient self control.

The actual numbers are not available, but going on the popularity of orthodox books such as Paul and Thecla, I tend to the idea that it was women convicting themselves to the values of chastity and virginity that sustained and grew the faith in the early centuries.

On his own personal level, Pope Francis’s answer to poverty is not giving to the poor in order that all are equally rich. His answer to poverty was to actually BE poor, to LIVE poor.

His is an existent and a life of poverty and chastity. He embraces poverty.

I fully accept that that is the authentic Christian life.
 
The only societies with unfettered markets are the criminal ones operating above the law, such as the drug cartels of Mexico and South and Central America, or the slave trading Arabs in North Africa. Criminal activity that exists in places where the law is non-existent or too weak to have any influence have unfettered markets.

Aside from that, ‘too big to fail’ scenarios, where governments actively sustain businesses with tax dollars is an example of a market unfettered by what would normally serve as the fetters of reality, where failure is actually actively rewarded by taxes and the illusionary money that governments can bring into existence with a few clicks of a mouse.
I should hope that it is obvious to everyone that neither of these are what advocates of free market capitalism are advocating.
The open question is whether or not some see the solution as closing down the ski hill altogether as the adequate parameter Those who are saying that the pope is denouncing capitalism are in effect coming out against skiing altogether
It is certainly true that the enemies of free market capitalism have seized upon one or two passages in the encyclical but I don’t think they are entirely mistaken. The pope is employing cliches and staw men of the left even if he is not precisely attacking free market capitalism as advocates of free market capitalism understand it. It’s tempting to conclude that the pope is mistaken about free market capitalism in the way that most leftists are.

Except that he has also taken a swipe at the welfare state. (Naturally that doesn’t merit coverage in the popular press.)

I think eveyone agrees that the pope is genuinely concerned about the plight of the poor. But it’s hard to escape the impression that he is denying the material benefits to the poor of free market capitalism.
 
This is the quintessential Catholic answer, in all seriousness. Chastity and virginity and poverty are the Catholic way. Family values are the less preferred second choice, only for those who find themselves without any sort of sufficient self control.

The actual numbers are not available, but going on the popularity of orthodox books such as Paul and Thecla, I tend to the idea that it was women convicting themselves to the values of chastity and virginity that sustained and grew the faith in the early centuries.

On his own personal level, Pope Francis’s answer to poverty is not giving to the poor in order that all are equally rich. His answer to poverty was to actually BE poor, to LIVE poor.

His is an existent and a life of poverty and chastity. He embraces poverty.

I fully accept that that is the authentic Christian life.
There has always existed a strain of asceticism in Christianity. But it does not define Christianity.

It’s interesting to note that even the rich can live poor. Warren Buffet, for example, lives a very simple lifestye, certainly in view of his wealth. Most rich live moderate upper middle-class lives. Where you see ostentatious living it is usually by ostentatious personalities such as movie stars and musicians.

This is a (reputedly) Protestant resolution. Wealth is viewed as a blessing from God but conspicuous consumption is viewed negatively and the difference is the accumulation of working capital.
 
Now you accuse the Pope, no less, of not engaging on a serious subject.
I do wish the pope had done a little more research on the subject before sharing his thoughts. But there are many others involved. There is the Latin-to-English translator who chose to use the loaded term “trickle down”, there is the press eager to publicize any criticism of free markets while ignoring criticisms of the welfare state, and there are leftist Catholics who pretend that all right-thinking Catholics are in agreement on the subject and that no “authentic” Catholic could support free markets.

But the pope is the author of this document and at least partly responsible for how his words are received and understood and used.
 
I should hope that it is obvious to everyone that neither of these are what advocates of free market capitalism are advocating.

It is certainly true that the enemies of free market capitalism have seized upon one or two passages in the encyclical but I don’t think they are entirely mistaken. The pope is employing cliches and staw men of the left even if he is not precisely attacking free market capitalism as advocates of free market capitalism understand it. It’s tempting to conclude that the pope is mistaken about free market capitalism in the way that most leftists are.

Except that he has also taken a swipe at the welfare state. (Naturally that doesn’t merit coverage in the popular press.)

I think eveyone agrees that the pope is genuinely concerned about the plight of the poor. But it’s hard to escape the impression that he is denying the material benefits to the poor of free market capitalism.
If you are talking about the capitalism that gave rise to the immense prosperity of the west, then free market is the wrong term. There was always immense collusion between the state and business. It was never just a case of competition.

If, as was suggested, Pope Francis is speaking more from the prospective of Latin American capitalism, then his portrayal is indeed more accurate. To suggest a free market capitalism as the solution to their problem when it was not the solution to ours is wrong.
 
There really is no simplistic solution to the inequities, lopsided privileges, and economic principles which drive and maintain capitalism. I grow weary of either side of the spectrum on this topic arguing that it’s a black-and-white issue. As I said earlier on this or another thread, as an economic system, capitalism is by its nature based on inequality and designed to maintain economic class differences. It can also be argued (on the positive side) that that’s what drives the engine (the desire to move from a less privileged position to a more privileged one) and keep an economy healthy enough to promote job creation.

Societies, ancient and modern, which have suffered less from inequality of result, have been those in which there was an informal but voluntary commitment (non-governmental) to provide for all – to notice who did not have enough, and correct that out of personal donations, assistance, etc. One of my students this year wrote about a solo trip of his to a country in South America. He was struck by how no one in the village he visited was ever homeless or hungry, because the residents voluntarily saw to that – not rich residents, mind you. We have also the obvious example in the Book of Acts, of voluntary sharing, based on moral (non-governmental, non-coerced, non-taxed) commitment. And the result of that was similarly that no one was imperiled.

We have competing principles operating in this country:
The support of individualism, individual initiative, and individual responsibility
versus
The habit of government, since the late 1960’s, to assume responsibility on a massive scale to simply “those in need” (not always specifically defined – the point that others here have raised)

The principles of capitalism, emphasizing disparity of income in the reality of profit, which cannot exist without cheap labor relative to company income.
versus
The principle of universal economic opportunity, which theoretically assumes that anyone from any economic class can become the privileged CEO someday of the same company for which he might have worked on the low end.

The principle of hard work and initiative being rewarded in a relatively free economic system
versus
The reality of profit being grossly aided by non-work (speculation, stocks, profit margins, earnings expectations, “futures,” etc. – principles not necessarily intrinsic to individual effort or output)

As to the latter ^, I know posters are going to say that CEO’s of highly profitable companies deserve every penny in their lavish paychecks. I disagree. Compensation is of course decided by members of the company itself, such as its Board of Directors, but the rationale for the compensation is largely based on the speculation built into capitalism. The CEO, and the company itself, often benefits at least as much from luck as from good management. That is also the nature of capitalism: luck and randomness.

We have an additional problem in this country because of our size. A distant federal government is not in a position to serve the locally needy poor, who most often fall through the cracks of gov’t assistance. (Often, the most clever & practically-educated are the ones who can benefit from gov’t assistance: they know how to do it, and/or have associates who can show them how. That is an additional layer of inequality, by the way.)

The smaller the community of awareness, the greater the possibility that no one will go without who does not choose to go without. And this is really the applied principle of social justice anyway. I think this would be the best social justice initiative ever, and the Catholic Church could lead the way in suggesting such an informal operating principle: Rich communities voluntarily “adopting” the needy neighboring community by setting up centers of assistance, safe shelter, and employment/training initiatives, including a policy of hiring such neighbors in their own companies (only where feasible). The economic principle is much more directly tied to the underlying capitalistic principle of opportunity, in that way. It also addresses much more: it literally ‘invests’ the communities in each other. It reduces divisions between economic classes, by personalizing the arrangement. Most importantly, from an economic perspective, it reduces (but does not eliminate) the social ills that arise from deprivation and which ironically threaten wealth itself, on a small and a large scale.

Everyone benefits from generosity; often the givers themselves benefit emotionally and practically in ways they never imagined. I would like to see giving much less corporately and governmentally driven it is now. I don’t relate to the “community giving” of the mega-companies like Starbucks and McDonald’s. And I think there are more people like me than not. But next door? Yeah. I have seen that totally involve and commit people who previously were cynical, like understandably many on this thread are. 🙂
 
If you are talking about the capitalism that gave rise to the immense prosperity of the west, then free market is the wrong term. There was always immense collusion between the state and business. It was never just a case of competition.

If, as was suggested, Pope Francis is speaking more from the prospective of Latin American capitalism, then his portrayal is indeed more accurate. To suggest a free market capitalism as the solution to their problem when it was not the solution to ours is wrong.
Well, this is one of the probems. There is the ideal of free market capitalism, which has never been realized. And there is the reality of historical capitalism in its many various forms.

While I am sympathetic to the view that the pope was speaking from his experience in Latin America, the pope seemed to be criticisizing the ideal. Let’s not forget that the pope is from Argentina where he lived his entire life under Peronism, one of the most anti-free market ideologies outside of communism and originally inspired by fascism. He need only have looked next door to Chile to see a better example.

I don’t know what to make of Pope Francis yet beyond a genuine concern for the poor. I’m still searching.
 
I should hope that it is obvious to everyone that neither of these are what advocates of free market capitalism are advocating.
What passes as common sense now only a century and a half ago was the state of affairs. British fought an Opium War against China defending their right to trade opium for gold. The Civil War had to be won before slavery likewise became criminalized
It is certainly true that the enemies of free market capitalism have seized upon one or two passages in the encyclical but I don’t think they are entirely mistaken. The pope is employing cliches and staw men of the left even if he is not precisely attacking free market capitalism as advocates of free market capitalism understand it. It’s tempting to conclude that the pope is mistaken about free market capitalism in the way that most leftists are.
I agree.
Vows of poverty have not precluded even Pope Francis from receiving an elite Jesuit education. He must be aware of the power of words and the way that his words will be translated.
There is nothing that he says that is not intentional, and nothing that he clarifies due to MSM mischaracterizations, not that I am aware of any way.
Except that he has also taken a swipe at the welfare state. (Naturally that doesn’t merit coverage in the popular press.)
I think eveyone agrees that the pope is genuinely concerned about the plight of the poor. But it’s hard to escape the impression that he is denying the material benefits to the poor of free market capitalism.
The socialist answer to poverty is the elimination of poverty through the elimination of class and a radical material equality.
The traditional Catholic answer to poverty is to embrace poverty. “Those who love life will lose it, and those who hate life will receive life eternal”.

It is very possible that Pope Francis is not embracing a socialist or even liberal message. It is very possible that what he really is embracing and evangelizing is poverty itself.
 
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