Pope Francis donates $500,000 to migrants at US border

[blackforest]

There are ways to legally immigrate to areas of the world (including the US) that do not require burrowing children, splitting families, paying criminal organizations.

Tell me all about these “ways.” Lord knows, I keep asking . . . .

As it stands, they’re already legally seeking asylum in the U.S. Besides remaining in Honduras, migrating with a coyote, and migrating without one.

Those words about the “right to migrate” come directly from the Catechism. People have the right to migrate | Catholic Strength

Did you read the article?

Yes. I get it, I get it, I get it.

What you’re not hearing me say is that nobody takes a dangerous trek - with children!! -unless they’re fleeing something more dangerous.

They need an alternative other than staying in Honduras or resorting to desperate measures.

When did you come to the U.S.?

 

[13pollitos]

What you’re not hearing me say is that nobody takes a dangerous trek - with children!! -unless they’re fleeing something more dangerous.

Untrue. IF you read the article you would see that it’s not always THEIR children. The kids are a convenient discount on a trip they were unsure of taking before. Many of the “dangerous situations” are deep poverty. Yes, it can be relieved with aid to them in their homes. Parents would not be handing their kids over or accepting payment for the use of their kids if they had aid to keep them together.

Another excerpt:

“Between April 19, when U.S. Customs and Border Protection began tracking the increase in suspected cases of fraudulent parentage, and Sept. 30, the end of the 2018 fiscal year, CBP agents had separated 170 families after determining the child and the adult traveling together were unrelated.

In Guatemalan villages, community leaders fear more children will be exploited. “This is a crime. This is human trafficking,” said Marleni Villeda, 46, who helps run a school for at-risk children, one of whom, she contends, recently left for the United States with a man who may not be a relative. “What is happening here is a tragedy.”

 

[13pollitos]

Tell me all about these “ways.” Lord knows, I keep asking . . . .

I have. They just aren’t what you seem to want to hear.

Many countries in the world are willing to take immigrants, not just the US. It doesn’t have to be US or stay in violence. There are paths to legal immigration to any safe country in the world if all you are seeking is to get out of danger. There is even a safer route to the south if you want to get out without waiting.

Reforming the system is ideal and I honestly think it will happen when people accept that laws must be followed and enforced. Until that happens there is no incentive to fix the system.

 

[graciew]

Many countries in the world are willing to take immigrants, not just the US. It doesn’t have to be US or stay in violence. There are paths to legal immigration to any safe country in the world if all you are seeking is to get out of danger.

There isn t stability job wise down south. I really wish there was but I can understand why north is way more attractive…
Mercosur for example is easier, much easier, and less expensive to travel to . They can even come and go to visit the big family, but we both know stability is erratic. And safety very relative to where they can access to live. And at the end of the day, this sparrow sort of migration varies depending on the dollar.
Do you know if any country in Europe would be willing to accept migrants with no resources and allow them to work? I honestly haven t looked into that possibility.

 

[blackforest]

IF you read the article you would see that it’s not always THEIR children

I read it and replied:

What you’re not hearing me say is that nobody takes a dangerous trek - with children!! -unless they’re fleeing something more dangerous.

I have. They just aren’t what you seem to want to hear.

Many countries in the world are willing to take immigrants, not just the US.

Pollitos, you’re still side-stepping my question. They don’t have “many countries.” They’re on foot. They can’t swim to Africa or hop a private jet to Bora Bora. That’s why I was pressing you for better specifics than “many countries.”

If you say the U.S., they’re already trying that. As asylees. They have every legal right to apply, even if the Trump administration is attempting a “crack down.” If they could get on their own in the first place, do you think they’d be attempting to do so with their own and other children??

Or are you talking more along the lines of “not in my backyard” and “make them someone else’s problem.” Unless they stay in Honduras and die, they have to go somewhere.

So you just judge the Pope being “political” and “not giving enough?”

Do you know if any country in Europe would be willing to accept migrants with no resources and allow them to work? I honestly haven t looked into that possibility.

That’s the thing - it’s Europe. Crossing an ocean just isn’t a possibility for Hondurans. And Europe is getting harder for seeking asylum; even Sweden is starting to close its doors.

 

[13pollitos]

Do you know if any country in Europe would be willing to accept migrants with no resources and allow them to work?

I know four families that are in Canada now. They flew into Canada applied for asylum. It was less expensive and much safer. I do not think it is right for me to say that people should just go to somewhere else, and I do not check each country’s laws. Three of the families who went to Canada are all from my husband’s hometown and the other one is from El Salvador.

Veracruz actually has a good number of people immigrating to Canada because of the cartels and human traffickers are getting worse. Going to Canada is relatively easy on a visa so the safety of travel is appealing.

I realize that South America is not economically stable. That is why my family is here.

There need to be changes made. Mexico down to Nicaragua especially are going to self destruct if this continues. Watching an entire region die because of well meaning people working with organized crime hurts. We have family that has vanished without a trace. Each day we worry about the ones that remain there. Every time these criminals get paid they get hungrier for more power.

 

[graciew]

Well, we may do some reality check.
Given what they spend in coyotes , if…much less could be spent on airfare and given an opportunity…
Here is where I come from. Mercosur. There is a much simpler way of entry among its members. And access to a work permit within controls and a background check. So that is a plus. The heart is open but it is more like the poor helping the poor. Anyway, it adds.
If… there is a door open somewhere in Europe for a person with no resources to be able to work, though more difficult to come and go, it is always an open door. And it adds.
But I do not know if it concretely exists in Europe.
As far as down south, I know we can receive people. We do. But…we still haven’t developed a policy of distribution of population who immigrates and relocate them where needed. That would be a win win.I know it may sound dictatorial…or bossy… but for example here, everyone ends in Buenos Aires. And live quite badly and crowded, whereas we have regions where though not with much bling, they are safer and may provide though little, at least some possibility of a job.
And this applies to our own citizens: have to look beyond Buenos Aires.
So, I am wondering what goes on in Europe as far as accepting skilled persons with no resources.
Let us see if there is a country willing to. I do not know.

 

[graciew]

Why do we need to get to asylum? Why not before?
I understand and agree with you in general.
Let us think together about our people we know quite well.
Let us see if there is a way out for persons, skilled persons with no resources so they are accepted and included in the system.

 

[13pollitos]

I agree. We need very much to make changes. Peoples safety needs to be put ahead of politics and agendas. There needs to be a way to immigrate without the worry that asylum will be denied or that you won’t make it to the next border. Jobs are available, and with more workers there can be more jobs created. It is good for everyone to make the reforms needed.

The more people spend and bribe criminals and the more “customers” there are the worse this becomes. Poverty stricken areas often worship the criminals. They see money, power, respect and it is something they have no way to achieve. Especially when families are not together, it is easy to want to belong with the powerful group.

The cartels feed on the children of misfortune. That is part of how they are getting stronger. They make them feel wanted and they give presents, services, protection at least until you do something they don’t like. This is just one example of how the cartel tries to make poverty stricken people think they are the good ones.

Jalisco cartel celebrates Children's Day with gifts of toys in Veracruz

Children's Day was widely celebrated Tuesday, particularly in Veracruz where the the Jalisco New Generation Cartel joined in the fun.

mexiconewsdaily.com

Most of the cartel bosses are looked at as modern day Robin Hoods by the “forgotten” peoples. The beautiful parts of Latin American cultures are being erased. Migrants are taking part away while the cartels and traffickers take away the rest.

 

[13pollitos]

Unless they stay in Honduras and die, they have to go somewhere.

Not everyone that stays in Honduras or anywhere else will die. Well, I guess technically speaking we all will, but not in the way you are saying. I am all for people having a way to leave SAFELY while not contributing to ripping apart families and perpetuating violence. If we just simply open the border and allow everyone that is seeking asylum to come without checking, how can we even begin to guarantee the safety of the ones that need it?

I mentioned Canada as an option, and even as liberal as Canada is, they also have limits in place. Not every person who wants to immigrate any where is going to qualify. It is sad and unfortunate. But the price to move to many other places is much cheaper than what they are paying the coyotes to move them through increasingly dangerous areas already.

One way Hondurans and others without much education and skills come to the US is with agricultural work permits. Expanding programs like that is a great idea. I am also for allowing refugee status with safe sheltering in place while applications are reviewed to help people that truly are in life and death situations. Expanding humanitarian aid and schools for at risk children should be a priority.

Native Americans that were put into foster care and youth homes have spoken out about the harm it causes to children to lose their languages and cultures. Many of us immigrants that came as young children can tell you that it happens to us too. Preventing that as much as possible is a way to ensure improvement for future generations. It will keep our world beautifully diverse.

People should be able to migrate within a system that protects everyone. Unlimited migration without restrictions is unsafe for everyone. We need to work toward migration policies that include safety measures for the individuals and the countries they are traveling between.

 

[blackforest]

One way Hondurans and others without much education and skills come to the US is with agricultural work permits. Expanding programs like that is a great idea. I am also for allowing refugee status with safe sheltering in place while applications are reviewed to help people that truly are in life and death situations. Expanding humanitarian aid and schools for at risk children should be a priority.

I can get behind all of this.

But the price to move to many other places is much cheaper than what they are paying the coyotes to move them through increasingly dangerous areas already.

Given what they spend in coyotes , if…much less could be spent on airfare and given an opportunity…

What is the going rate for coyotes? Do any of us know?

I have a strong hunch that nobody is going to travel on foot through the Mexican war zone if they can easily board an airplane to Paris where they can enjoy mimosas and an in-flight feature film . . . . There must be a compelling reason why they’re not flooding the airport.

People should be able to migrate within a system that protects everyone. Unlimited migration without restrictions is unsafe for everyone. We need to work toward migration policies that include safety measures for the individuals and the countries they are traveling between.

I can get behind this, too. The focus needs to be less on the migrants and more on the criminals exploiting them.

Think of domestic violence as an analogy. For too long, the focus was on the victim. “Why doesn’t she leave?” “Is she provoking him?” “Is the exaggerating?”
Today, campaigns combatting domestic violence encourage focusing on the perpetrator: “Why does he beat her?”

With the migrant scenario, I see too much judgment of the migrants on CAF, (in general, not necessarily from you). “Why are they doing this?” “Why won’t they stay and make Honduras better?” “Why don’t they seek asylum at an official port of entry?”
Or the Pope: “Why is he ‘encouraging’ this?”

Why not focus on the gangs, coyotes, and narco-terrorists and what to do with them? That should be at the heart of Trump’s diplomatic negotiations with Mexico. They’re making life a nightmare for everybody. Mexico needs to step up to the plate, and the U.S. could even offer to help. Combined with some much-needed immigration reform on the U.S. side, these measures could ensure safe passage and a just path to citizenship.

 

[blackforest]

I traveled over the cordillera by bus and actually witnessed some Chileans trying to cross the border into Argentina. Border patrol was demanding to know why the Chileans were carrying blankets and didn’t believe them when they replied, “Because it’s cold. Why else?” A woman I traveled with told me that scenarios like this were pretty common.

 

[13pollitos]

What is the going rate for coyotes? Do any of us know?

Coyotes charge different amounts depending on if there are children or not. A single man/woman will be between $10,000-15,000 (per person) because the smuggler has to go with them across the US Border. If they have a child they only charge $3,000-6,000 (for entire group) because they get dropped at the border. That is why you are seeing an decrease in single men and an increase in children (accompanied or not) and caravans (again a big discount) and why several people are ”adopting” children for the trip. There are reports from mountain villages in Guatemala that parents are selling their kids to migrants because the migrant promises to take them to a cousin or friend already in the US or because they promise a “home” for them. Sometimes the kids never arrive, but who Can the parents contact for help? No, the reports are not from a news source so I can’t site them. They are simply the word of mouth. The article I posted does touch on this and similar some though. (Please don’t think I hate those parents. They are victims as well. They need help before it gets that bad that they think there is no choice. We are talking about mostly illiterate people with limited Spanish. people with no options.)

One of the reasons Mexicans and other Latin Americans are heading to Canada is they can enter for a small processing fee on a visa, and air fare for an entire large family is still much cheaper than coyote fees. The Mexicans are tired of the criminals and many are beginning to realize the more they are paid and the more power they have the worse things become. Once in Canada the families I spoke of applied for asylum. Just like the US there is no guarantee. But it was a safe trip, family is together, and was still a cheaper price.

If you are wondering where people are getting that much cash to pay the coyotes, part comes from selling possessions and land. People also do collections. Just like many of us immigrants in the US we tend to have our own “banking system” and collect money from friends, friends of friends, friends of friends of friends…and eventually pay back or at least contribute to another ones loan. Coyotes also allow monthly payments so you have 2-5 years to pay off the amount before they retaliate against your family or take you as a slave of some sort. Sex slaves are the most common way women and children are enslaved but there are several cases of children on farms as well.

 

[13pollitos]

These are seriously evil people. Something needs to be done and quickly before the entire region collapsed. I don’t call coyotes traffickers just because I don’t like immigration. If they don’t fit the criteria we have a truly screwed up world. Coyotes buy and sell the migrants between themselves on the way up. Sometimes the buyer ends up being other types of traffickers or drug cartels. I have no doubt that many of the bodies in the over 2,000 mass graves belong to migrants. I know some of the missing end up sex slaves.

I know you have a hard time believing this, but in so many ways people are safer staying in place than they are taking that trip. I know how bad it is. They need a way to safely immigrate and help in their homes until that can be worked out. These mass migrations make things worse safety wise and also less likely to get actual legal channels to open up. Why should anyone work to make easier access when people are coming regardless? Even most migrants don’t see it as something that needs to be changed because they got here ok. It’s frustrating.

 

[13pollitos]

The quote didn’t work and I don’t know how to fix it. But you said:

“With the migrant scenario, I see too much judgment of the migrants on CAF, (in general, not necessarily from you). “Why are they doing this?” “Why won’t they stay and make Honduras better?” “Why don’t they seek asylum at an official port of entry?”
Or the Pope: “Why is he ‘encouraging’ this?”

Why not focus on the gangs, coyotes, and narco-terrorists and what to do with them? That should be at the heart of Trump’s diplomatic negotiations with Mexico. They’re making life a nightmare for everybody. Mexico needs to step up to the plate, and the U.S. could even offer to help. Combined with some much-needed immigration reform on the U.S. side, these measures could ensure safe passage and a just path to citizenship.“

What made my husband decide the wall needs to be built was when the cartel invaded his hometown. They took many people including some family. He sees the wall as a deterrent that will at least slow things down and prays it helps. I don’t agree with him, but I do understand why he thinks that way.

There are many reason I see donations like from the pope as encouraging things. I don’t know how else to explain so if you aren’t understanding we will just have to leave things as they are.

The corruption in Mexico is to a point that there is no way they are even able to step up anymore. The cartels run the country. The only way to counter the cartels is to cut of the money flow. As long as the migration continues and drugs are wanted, it’s only getting stronger. But I agree that needs to be a priority.

We want to bring our family here and can’t. So, we are considering buying tickets for them to Canada.

 

[graciew]

That is a beautiful trip!
That was funny… “ because it is cold” . Obviously!
Chile has a better economy, more stable… It isn t with Chile we really have an issue with migration.At least not that complicated. They are usually in better shape…
We do have “ shopping tour” exchanges depending on the dollar.
Love it that you made that trip. It is fantastic. The Andes Cordillera is really magnificent, Blackforest.

 

[graciew]

What is the going rate for coyotes? Do any of us know?

I have a strong hunch that nobody is going to travel on foot through the Mexican war zone if they can easily board an airplane to Paris where they can enjoy mimosas and an in-flight feature film . . . . There must be a compelling reason why they’re not flooding the airport.

Yes…probably.
The issue in general not to board a plane is that one will not qualify for a visa, even tourist.One has to present different docs to prove one has assets, money, property at home. In general , specifics depend on the countries,and in my experience…Unless your country has a visa waiver( but those waivers don’ t of course allow to overstay and work)
And of course as you said before, Europe is far in $$$ to come and go.
About coyotes , I have read as parting from 700 dollars up ( but take it with a grain of salt),it may be much higher still

 

[blackforest]

I know you have a hard time believing this, but in so many ways people are safer staying in place than they are taking that trip.

So I actually don’t know either way. I’m not there. I just think that desperate people do desperate things and take risks - sometimes calculated, sometimes irrational - to get themselves and/or their children out of harm’s way.

There are many reason I see donations like from the pope as encouraging things. I don’t know how else to explain so if you aren’t understanding we will just have to leave things as they are.

I really, really hear you. I just don’t think that depriving the poor of basic necessities is going to solve this very complex problem in any way. Giving to them won’t either - but it does address an urgency.

The corruption in Mexico is to a point that there is no way they are even able to step up anymore. The cartels run the country. The only way to counter the cartels is to cut of the money flow. As long as the migration continues and drugs are wanted, it’s only getting stronger. But I agree that needs to be a priority.

It’s been years since I’ve been to Mexico, but I was doing missionary work their during one of its violent hey-days. It was readily acknowledged that the people who should be stopping the cartels often ARE the cartels, or at least in cahoots with them.

Canada would be a good option, particularly since its sparsely populated. Canada’s developing its own case of xenophobia now, (funny how no one will ever own that), and it’s getting trickier.

Love it that you made that trip. It is fantastic. The Andes Cordillera is really magnificent, Blackforest.

I think I would have appreciated it more if I wasn’t ready to throw up, lol! Something about speedy buses on hairpin curves didn’t help my stomach! But you’re right - it’s really God’s country in that part of the world.

I’m used to traveling to countries and having people resent what I represent as an American. But not the Argentines - they were so welcoming!

About coyotes , I have read as parting from 700 dollars up ( but take it with a grain of salt),it may be much higher still

Yes, I think most of the information we have is hearsay. I believe they take non-monetary forms of payment as well, and I can’t imagine those would be pleasant.

 

[13pollitos]

Yes, I think most of the information we have is hearsay. I believe they take non-monetary forms of payment as well, and I can’t imagine those would be pleasant.

They most certainly do. And payments are taken whether you make it to the US, deported, died, whatever. So if someone makes the journey and cannot get work for whatever reason, their family pays the price. People that don’t make it here or get deported before they pay off the debt are in MUCH worse shape than before they tried.

The coyotes often charge for each section so depending on where and when you use them the price will have a wide range. Someone going from Nicaragua all the way to through the desert will be different than just from Chiapas to the border. Or just through parts of Mexico. Or even just crossing the border. There are so many combinations but it all works the same really.

Yes…probably.
The issue in general not to board a plane is that one will not qualify for a visa, even tourist.One has to present different docs to prove one has assets, money, property at home. In general , specifics depend on the countries,and in my experience…Unless your country has a visa waiver( but those waivers don’ t of course allow to overstay and work)
And of course as you said before, Europe is far in $$$ to come and go.
About coyotes , I have read as parting from 700 dollars up ( but take it with a grain of salt),it may be much higher still

One reason is many people already have family here to unite with and are not told the full truth of the dangers or that the chance is small that they can get to stay. They hear rumors and are lies to by coyotes. They also do not know that the options exist for another way. No one tells them that the US is not the only place they can work or be safe. You have to remember, many of the population has never been to school or Can read or anything. They don’t know world geography. They only know what they are told.

Mexico has the advantage that more people are at least slightly educated. There are more Mexicans that have returned and let them know that much of the rumors are false. And Mexicans really have no hope of asylum so it’s not as much false hopes.

 

[graciew]

I think I would have appreciated it more if I wasn’t ready to throw up, lol! Something about speedy buses on hairpin curves didn’t help my stomach! But you’re right - it’s really God’s country in that part of the world.

I’m used to traveling to countries and having people resent what I represent as an American. But not the Argentines - they were so welcoming!

Poor you and your stomach! LOL.
And thanks God you felt welcomed, so glad about that… ! Come back whenever you can!