Pope Francis donates $500,000 to migrants at US border

[13pollitos]

These days, there’s a stigma on expressing racism and prejudice openly. But it doesn’t mean that racism and prejudice no longer exist; people just no longer overtly own these sentiments.

This is very true and not at all uniquely American. It is an unfortunate thing that happens everywhere but so many times is called something different or justified in other ways. It is nice to see that acknowledged

 

[13pollitos]

Migrants can be and are trafficked, (although I already linked upthread to show that most trafficking victims are either already in the U.S. or brought in legally). It’s horrible all around.

It is horrible all the way around. There is no easy solution. I think the definition people use for trafficked might vary. Most of us that have had contact with coyotes agree it is human trafficking but not everyone agrees with that. I know absolutely no one that has embarked on the journey that has not used coyotes in one way or another. Maybe there are some but knowing the way it is to move across Mexico and finding the best place to cross, I doubt there are many. There are several people that will say they didn’t use coyote but the way they describe there trip they talks about using them just not calling them that.

Many Americans also use coyotes to move around Mexico as well. It’s not just migrants from south moving north. The coyotes arrange for safe passage through Tamaulipas, Veracruz, along highways and I to central Mexico where it is “safer” for travel. Most Americans call it something different and don’t see it as anything but “security”. The problem is all that gives power to the traffickers of all kinds.

Pope Francis has condemned human trafficking specifically numerous times. Priests are dying because of these networks. I can not wrap my mind or heart around the idea of feeding into this.

 

[blackforest]

I’m working with the government’s defition. The arrangement with a coyote would not constitute “human trafficking” because it is voluntary, consensual, and self-limiting. What Is Human Trafficking? | Homeland Security

Human trafficking is modern-day slavery and involves the use of force, fraud, or coercion to obtain some type of labor or commercial sex act.

 

[Feanor2]

Good point.

And as another poster noter we are seeing more of this “dog whistling” of racists and xenophobic inclinations in terms like “loss of culture” and “loss of our way of life”.

You also see it in the language used to describe immigrants such as “horde” “invasion” “illegals” and “thugs”.

 

[13pollitos]

Children can’t consent so even with that definition, it is human trafficking to pay criminals to move minors.

If you or I paid organized crime organizations to move me and/or my child out of a deadly neighborhood in # 15. Worlds most dangerous city St. Louis, Missouri (60.59 homicides per 100,000 residents) to a less deadly neighborhood in # 33. Worlds most dangerous city San Pedro Sula, Honduras (46.67 homicides per 100,000 residents) is that trafficking? What if I paid them to move my child from that same neighborhood in St. Louis to a safer neighborhood in Wyoming? It is often difficult to move from gang infested neighborhoods and it has cost people their lives here in the US as well. Paying for protection still just gives more power to the criminals. It is making the cycle worse not safer for anyone.

 

[13pollitos]

I agree with you.

One side note, most illegal immigrants call themselves ilegales or mojados. It isn’t something they see as bad. There are even Mexican movies (Tres Veces Mojado for one) and numerous songs about mojados and ilegales. It’s seen differently than invader, thug, horde, etc.

 

[blackforest]

Children can’t consent so even with that definition, it is human trafficking to pay criminals to move minors.

Are you referring to unaccompanied minors?

That still wouldn’t meet the definition of human trafficking under U.S. or international law. The children are in a temporary relationship with the coyote and not being enslaved.

 

[13pollitos]

Are you referring to unaccompanied minors?

That still wouldn’t meet the definition of human trafficking under U.S. or international law. The children are in a temporary relationship with the coyote and not being enslaved.

Not just unaccompanied but yes, most certainly unaccompanied minors.

The legal definition should be changed if “temporary relationship” with a coyote is not trafficking. That’s disturbing beyond belief.

If you or I paid organized crime organizations to move me and/or my child out of a deadly neighborhood in # 15. Worlds most dangerous city St. Louis, Missouri (60.59 homicides per 100,000 residents) to a less deadly neighborhood in # 33. Worlds most dangerous city San Pedro Sula, Honduras (46.67 homicides per 100,000 residents) is that trafficking? What if I paid them to move my child from that same neighborhood in St. Louis to a safer neighborhood in Wyoming? It is often difficult to move from gang infested neighborhoods and it has cost people their lives here in the US as well. Paying for protection still just gives more power to the criminals. It is making the cycle worse not safer for anyone

Please let me know your thoughts on this.

 

[blackforest]

Please let me know your thoughts on this.

It is disturbing. The U.S. doesn’t make for a fitting analogy. Any determined gangster will stalk their target anywhere in the U.S. The bystanders have a lot more safe relocation opportunities than someone within Honduran boundaries. For latter, here are the choices.

1. Remain in Honduras and risk death.
2. Cross Mexico, risk death with potential to reach safety, hire coyote.
3. Cross Mexico, risk death with potential to reach safety, don’t hire coyote.

Clearly, none of these are desirable options. So other alternative what would be desirable? I’m not being snarky or rhetorical; I’m sincerely open to alternatives that can help these people reach a state of safety.

 

[13pollitos]

1. Remain in Honduras and risk death.
2. Cross Mexico, risk death with potential to reach safety, hire coyote.
3. Cross Mexico, risk death with potential to reach safety, don’t hire coyote.

These are not the only options.

The U.S. doesn’t make for a fitting analogy. Any determined gangster will stalk their target anywhere in the U.S. The bystanders have a lot more safe relocation opportunities than someone within Honduran boundaries.

My question was is it human trafficking?

One other thing that should be noted is the priests being killed probably don’t know the legal definitions of trafficking according to international law. That doesn’t remove the bulls eye from their foreheads and it doesn’t make anyone any safer

 

[blackforest]

These are not the only options.

Then what are they? I’m sincerely asking.

My question was is it human trafficking?

I defined if for you, using the legal definition.

The priests are being unjustly and brutally murdered under a different name.

 

[13pollitos]

Then what are they?

Hondurans specifically or any Latin Americans in general?

The priests are being unjustly and brutally murdered under a different name.

Then they are unaware that international law views migrants as being in a “temporary relationship” and that makes it ok. I’ll be sure to let the priests I know down there that it isn’t human trafficking and therefore not organized crime so they don’t need to speak against them. Somehow I doubt it will make a difference.

When did Catholics become alright with paying organized criminals for services? Hasn’t Pope Francis specifically stated that it is wrong even? Accepting donations of “dirty money” is also immoral.

 

[blackforest]

. I’ll be sure to let the priests I know down there that it isn’t human trafficking and therefore not organized crime so they don’t need to speak against them.

Oh my good heavens. I didn’t come even close to saying that!

What on earth do you mean by “therefore??” Human trafficking is one of many forms of organized crime. The particular form of people smuggling in which the coyotes engage doesn’t happen to fall legally into the “human trafficking” category. And guess what? Desperate migrants are stuck with them. Research: Transnational Crime in Mexico and Centra.. | migrationpolicy.org

Procuring a coyote does not guarantee safe passage, but those unable to afford a coyote are more likely to be abused or kidnapped, and held for ransom along the way.

Then, after all of that effort to find safety, they get to arrive at the border to hear all of the hate: “Invaders!” “Go home!” “Stop stealing our jobs!”

Thank heavens our Pope is stepping in. Lord knows, somebody had to.

 

[blackforest]

Hondurans specifically or any Latin Americans in general?

I think I already specified this for you.

here are the choices.

1. Remain in Honduras and risk death.
2. Cross Mexico, risk death with potential to reach safety, hire coyote.
3. Cross Mexico, risk death with potential to reach safety, don’t hire coyote.

Is there something better they can do? If so, what?

 

[13pollitos]

There are many better things they can do.

Making traveling with a child and encouraging people to get out now is what leads to situations like the ones in this article. It is killing Latin America. Well meaning people from privileged areas thinking they are caring for migrants are in fact making things so much worse. The pope supporting migration in both words and with money is making things worse.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.9f77e6238e7d

From the article:

Dina Casanga is 19 and has four children. The eldest, Benjamin, is either 5 or 6 years old, depending on which of his birth documents is to be believed.

Such documents, issued by the Guatemala’s National Registry of Persons (RENAP), are at the center of the controversy over true parentage in the disputed cases in Chanmagua. The town’s mayor, and other officials, allege the RENAP office in nearby Esquipulas will issue, for a fee, documents establishing a parent-child relationship, particularly for single mothers who did not have a father initially registered.

RENAP did not respond to multiple requests for comment.

Elmer Oseas Moran, 20, left Chanmagua with the young boy, Benjamin, in October, headed for the United States. In an interview with The Washington Post, the mother, Dina Casanga, first described Elmer as “the father” and later as “an acquaintance,” and said she did not know his last name.

Casanga’s father, Héctor Casanga, 50, disputes Moran is the boy’s father and is pressing a legal complaint against his daughter. He said he raised the boy for several years and that his daughter had no right to give his grandson to someone else.

In his cramped home, he showed copies of two RENAP documents. The most recent one, dated Oct 12, listed the boy’s last name as Moran Casanga, taking the last name of the man who left with him. But the earlier document shows his name as Casanga Vasquez, the same as the mother, and it had no information identifying a father.

“She named him as her husband, so he could take the boy with him,” said Héctor Casanga, the boy’s grandfather. “She invented that to take him away from me, and RENAP gave her a paper.”

Dina Casanga, who is unemployed and illiterate, said her father was an alcoholic and abusive and that her son would be better off in the United States. The man with her son will provide for him, she said.

“He is going to pay for someone else to take care of him because he has to work,” she said.

 

[blackforest]

There are many better things they can do.

What things?

My question pertains to what you think the migrants should do, not the Vatican. They were leaving long before the Vatican stepped in, so you can’t blame that decision on the Pope’s donation “encouraging” it. Should they have remained in Honduras? What would you do in that situation with your own family?

 

[Dracarys]

Great. Is he also giving money to the families of US citizens killed or victimized by illegal aliens and border agents hurt or killed by illegal aliens?

 

[13pollitos]

There are ways to legally immigrate to areas of the world (including the US) that do not require burrowing children, splitting families, paying criminal organizations. And those ways are cheaper and safer as well. The US is not the only place they can go to escape violence or poverty and it is possible to legally come to the US safely if that is what you want. The current migration and all that is involved with that is killing Latin America.

I mentioned it isn’t just the donation. Words of support for “the right to migrate” are a larger part of the encouragement. The donation is one small piece of the mess. It does contribute even if it isn’t the main part. Yes, migrants were coming before and will afterwards. It isn’t the cause but it is spurring the increase. It is making it more and more likely.

When you have a large number of devout Catholics that have been hearing that the US is giving them a free pass if they have a child, and the coyotes are giving huge discounts for having a child, and the pope is saying they have a right to migrate, and now is donating $500,000 to help along the way, it is encouraging this. Why not send donations this large to catholic charitable organizations in the region to minister in ways that are needed?

Did you read the article?

Another part of the article:

“That decision has shaken this village of some 3,000 people, where gossip travels quickly. Town leaders, such as the mayor, and the head of the Catholic charity foundation, say Mejia, who left earlier this year, has no relation to Elizabeth Dayana, and they are concerned for her welfare.

“As an organization, what worries us most is: What’s going to happen to those kids over there?” said Josue Villeda, who runs the foundation in honor of Sister Maria Caridad, an American nun who spent much of her life in Chanmagua. “If someone isn’t a relative or anything, who is going to watch over the child’s education in the United States? Their health? Their basic needs?”

 

[billsherman]

There are ways to legally immigrate to areas of the world (including the US) that do not require burrowing children, splitting families, paying criminal organizations. And those ways are cheaper and safer as well.

Not really. US immigration law realistically provides only the option most of these migrants attempt: asylum. And as we see from this forum, that shouldn’t be provided either.

Their only remaining realistic options would be marrying a US citizen or getting a job no US citizen can do (pretty hard to do when you’re in Honduras). With marriage you may still be denied a green card if the government thinks you are too poor. Your children will also have to wait years to come (this is the evil thing Trump calls “chain migration”).

Basically, Americans don’t want these people here. And even the only realistic legal way they have to come here - asylum - is seen as being wrong by most people on this forum. Where I come from, that’s a long way from loving your neighbor. But I’m just brainwashed anyway.

 

[13pollitos]

There are lots of us who have immigrated here legally (and not because we are rich. My family would have stayed in bolivia if we were rich) and I am very much in favor of reforming immigration to make it easier. No way do I think the system is perfect or even just good enough. There is a huge difference between wanting to prevent these trips by fixing the system and situations in their homes and denying asylum to people who actually qualify and need it. It’s also completely false that “these people” have no options besides stay in Honduras (or any other country in Latin America) or illegally cross multiple countries to settle illegally in another country. There are other ways than the false statement there they have no other options.

Yes, we need to reform the system. Yes, we need to grant asylum when it’s warranted. Yes, we need to stop enticing people to break the laws of other countries and instead provide real tangible services to them in their homes.

What is loving about making people leave there homes and families and travel through Hell in order to receive services? What is loving about making an already horrible situation worse by empowering criminal organizations, leaving children vulnerable to these criminals because they don’t have family support, and all because of rumors that aren’t true?

Welcoming people once they are in the US while telling people back home not to make the trip is loving our neighbors. Migrants and Mexicans are both being kidnapped and killed in record numbers. The situation is only going to get worse.

Migrant Caravan in Mexico Changes Course, but Dangers Still Lurk

A caravan of Central American migrants traveling to the United States has changed its intended route to avoid the Texas-Mexico border — a move that shows even such a large group remains vulnerable to powerful criminal organizations operating in Mexico.

insightcrime.org

“ This decision comes amid a report that prosecutors in the state of Puebla are investigating the alleged kidnapping of 100 migrants, including 65 children, HuffPost Mexico reported. There are, however, conflicting reports about what happened to the migrants.

Oaxaca Ombudsman Arturo Peimbert first spoke of the alleged mass kidnapping on November 5. He said it happened while the migrants were moving through the state of Veracruz, another high-risk region.

SEE ALSO: Mexico News and Profiles

Three people who claim they managed to escape the kidnappers have now given statements to authorities. One woman, who was not identified, said eight hooded men had stopped the fruit truck they were traveling in. She also said one attacker boarded the truck and told the group they had been “sold.”